TKD - Training to black belt (split)

[rmclain]

I'd like to share an article from a Grandmaster that has continuously trained since 1951 and taught since 1957. It is related to this topic...

The Stages of Training
[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]By Grandmaster Kim Soo, 10th. Dan & Founder, Chayon-Ryu Martial Arts
Written by Sabomnim Graeme Cox[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]There are three stages of martial art training, Physical, Philosophical, and Application. Although millions of people train, most stay within the first stage.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]First Stage: Physical[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The emphasis of training is how to use the body as a weapon, including physical skills and tactics for sparring, tournaments, and self-defense. This is Mu Sul In, a person training in the physical skills of martial arts. Most students quit training after a couple of years because their Instructors only understand and teach this first stage. [/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Second Stage: Philosophy[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Emphasis is on deeper philosophical and mental values. Training includes breathing and meditation techniques to gain wisdom and strengthen willpower. This stage includes all subtle changes to a student such as creating a positive attitude, improved confidence and self-esteem, leadership skills, control and responsibility for own actions, and a deeper understanding of all things in the universe. The student understands the importance of this mental and physical balance.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Third Stage: Application[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Application of all the principles developed through a student’s martial art training in every situation of their daily life. Training is only complete when the student understands all three stages. This is Mu Do In, an enlightened person who understands the true value of martial arts training.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The original Grandmasters were highly educated scholars and philosophers who understood all three stages. Since that time, politicians, businessmen, and even religious leaders slowly changed martial arts to suit their purpose. They emphasized the first stage, and promoted tournaments, trophies, and sports to make money and gain international recognition. [/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Since they did not understand all three levels, up to 80% of modern martial artists and Instructors have failed to develop the calm, kind attributes of their predecessors. All you need do is look at martial art magazines. You almost never see a calm, controlled, confident individual. The majority of the cover pictures are of men snarling with mean, ugly looks on their faces. The association of machismo with martial arts is based solely on first stage understanding. If these people ever moved through the second and third stages, they would understand how superficial was their present view of martial arts.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Martial art training was designed to help you find "yourself." What is your potential? How can you use your body? How can you use your mind? How can you apply your training to improve you life? Without going through these three stages you never understand your full potential in life. [/font]

 

[terryl965]

Very nice post could not have said it better. Thank you so much.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Marginal]

So, in other words, if you don't understand every application, and become a good neo-confucionist in the process, you cannot be a black belt. Therefore acheiving further ranking beyond 1st dan is meaningless as a 1st dan already needs to understand the system inside and out.

 

[terryl965]

So, in other words, if you don't understand every application, and become a good neo-confucionist in the process, you cannot be a black belt. Therefore acheiving further ranking beyond 1st dan is meaningless as a 1st dan already needs to understand the system inside and out.

Well let see if you do not understand your applications as far as first Dan how can you progrees from there. the statement was can I be a BB by the way i kick a bag in the original post In time yes in a hurry maybe but what type of BB are you going to be if you do not understand what is being tought.
I guess I will leave this thread alone since everybody believes a BB means nothing anymore.

 

[Marginal]

I will submit that there's a difference between knowing the applications up to 1st dan, vs knowing everything there is to know about TKD before you become a bb. (The thread hasn't really kept on the focus of what the first poster asked and the immediate reaction to that post.) It's just become another what a bb really means thread. Which is really only a stone's throw from the "what's traditional" debate, which is already what fills up the first page of the forum.

Ok, that was a bit of a digression, but honestly, did this "TKD is really about..." thing really come into focus to you seniors back when you were preparing to test for 1st dan, or did that come later? With that in mind, is it realistic to expect all comers to learn this before 1st dan, or do the people that stay on and earn higher ranks just happen to have already agreed with this perspective (though perhaps not have been able to flesh it out on their own) and have not actually improved themselves in that respect much at all?

It's easy to say folks who move on lack self-discipline, integrity, etc. Does that mean you're incapable of conferring those mental aspects to your students? If so, how can you justify the claim that TKD is really about making you a perfect person rather than a martial art?

 

[terryl965]

I will submit that there's a difference between knowing the applications up to 1st dan, vs knowing everything there is to know about TKD before you become a bb. (The thread hasn't really kept on the focus of what the first poster asked and the immediate reaction to that post.) It's just become another what a bb really means thread. Which is really only a stone's throw from the "what's traditional" debate, which is already what fills up the first page of the forum.

I would agree with your statement and if I took anything out of text sorry.

 

[FearlessFreep]

The thread hasn't really kept on the focus of what the first poster asked and the immediate reaction to that post.

[MOD NOTE: THREAD SPLIT, NEW TOPIC CREATED HERE - SHESULSA]

So the answer to the original post is "You can get a Black Belt as fast as soon as your instructor gives you one so it depends on who you can find as an instructor...now what does it mean to you?"

 

[evenflow1121]

The thread hasn't really kept on the focus of what the first poster asked and the immediate reaction to that post.

So the answer to the original post is "You can get a Black Belt as fast as soon as your instructor gives you one so it depends on who you can find as an instructor...now what does it mean to you?"

Very well put, at the end of the day, it all comes down to how much effort you put into it in order to become a bb, and how you feel about yourself once you achieved it. I am pretty sure you can find any mcdojo around your city that will grant you a bb within a specified amount of time whether you know the reqs or not, then again I am sure you could also find a school that will teach you the true meaning of the art you seek to learn and grant your bb when you deserve it.

 

[Adept]

I respectfully and completely disagree. There is no reputable master who would confer a BB on someone in 6-months...not if that person has had no previous martial arts training. There is no way an individual can possess the knowledge and skill that a 1st Dan MUST possess in such a short period of time - regardless of how often you train. IMHO, anyone who possesses a BB after just 6-months of training has been completely scammed.

I also respectfully disagree. A black belt is simply a standard we set. A dedicated and gifted student could reach that standard within six months.

Claiming it is impossible is like saying no one could win a state boxing title within six months. After all, state champion is only a standard, like a black belt.

 

[Adept]

I'd like to share an article from a Grandmaster that has continuously trained since 1951 and taught since 1957. It is related to this topic...

The Stages of Training
[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]By Grandmaster Kim Soo, 10th. Dan & Founder, Chayon-Ryu Martial Arts
Written by Sabomnim Graeme Cox[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]There are three stages of martial art training, Physical, Philosophical, and Application. Although millions of people train, most stay within the first stage.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]First Stage: Physical[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The emphasis of training is how to use the body as a weapon, including physical skills and tactics for sparring, tournaments, and self-defense. This is Mu Sul In, a person training in the physical skills of martial arts. Most students quit training after a couple of years because their Instructors only understand and teach this first stage. [/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Second Stage: Philosophy[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Emphasis is on deeper philosophical and mental values. Training includes breathing and meditation techniques to gain wisdom and strengthen willpower. This stage includes all subtle changes to a student such as creating a positive attitude, improved confidence and self-esteem, leadership skills, control and responsibility for own actions, and a deeper understanding of all things in the universe. The student understands the importance of this mental and physical balance.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Third Stage: Application[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Application of all the principles developed through a student’s martial art training in every situation of their daily life. Training is only complete when the student understands all three stages. This is Mu Do In, an enlightened person who understands the true value of martial arts training.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The original Grandmasters were highly educated scholars and philosophers who understood all three stages. Since that time, politicians, businessmen, and even religious leaders slowly changed martial arts to suit their purpose. They emphasized the first stage, and promoted tournaments, trophies, and sports to make money and gain international recognition. [/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Since they did not understand all three levels, up to 80% of modern martial artists and Instructors have failed to develop the calm, kind attributes of their predecessors. All you need do is look at martial art magazines. You almost never see a calm, controlled, confident individual. The majority of the cover pictures are of men snarling with mean, ugly looks on their faces. The association of machismo with martial arts is based solely on first stage understanding. If these people ever moved through the second and third stages, they would understand how superficial was their present view of martial arts.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Martial art training was designed to help you find "yourself." What is your potential? How can you use your body? How can you use your mind? How can you apply your training to improve you life? Without going through these three stages you never understand your full potential in life. [/font]

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

 

[Miles]

Why not start a new threat Adept to discuss the posted article?

Miles

 

[shesulsa]

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Thread split - discussion on considering TKD training remains in thread "Considering taekwondo".

Georgia Ketchmark
Sr. Moderator, MartialTalk

 

[Miles]

Thanks for splitting this out since I think the posted article deserves some discussion.

Like Terry, I agree with it. But I think that if so many students fail within the first stage, it is the fault of the instructor more so than the student.

People start martial arts for all kinds of reasons. Why they stay and learn is largely because they are meeting some need. The instructor's job is to ascertain those needs and present the material properly. Unfortunately many want to become the next Bruce Lee or Jet Li but don't wish to undergo the requisite training and quit. Or they've bought into the idea that the black belt is the final destination and quit when they can't fly. That's what the first stage is all about.

Once they are hooked, students do move into a different level of understanding. They become immersed INTO the art-learning history, philosophy, breathing exercises. This does not happen at yellow belt-it has always been in my experience, after black belt.

The last stage, what the author calls "Application" is where the student BECOMES the art. This is where the student has explored the art so thoroughly that he or she understands themselves better. This understanding manifests itself internally-he/she does not have to prove anything, he/she is self-actualized.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

Thanks for splitting this out since I think the posted article deserves some discussion.

Like Terry, I agree with it. But I think that if so many students fail within the first stage, it is the fault of the instructor more so than the student.

People start martial arts for all kinds of reasons. Why they stay and learn is largely because they are meeting some need. The instructor's job is to ascertain those needs and present the material properly. Unfortunately many want to become the next Bruce Lee or Jet Li but don't wish to undergo the requisite training and quit. Or they've bought into the idea that the black belt is the final destination and quit when they can't fly. That's what the first stage is all about.

Once they are hooked, students do move into a different level of understanding. They become immersed INTO the art-learning history, philosophy, breathing exercises. This does not happen at yellow belt-it has always been in my experience, after black belt.

The last stage, what the author calls "Application" is where the student BECOMES the art. This is where the student has explored the art so thoroughly that he or she understands themselves better. This understanding manifests itself internally-he/she does not have to prove anything, he/she is self-actualized.

Miles

Miles very articulate what a wonderful post if I knew how to give you a point in that system I would if a Mod. reads this please give him the point and sign my name to it. Darn I wish I could give those points.

 

[shesulsa]

Miles very well put vert articulate, I wish I could give you a good reputation point but do not know ho to, please if a MOD. reads this give him a point with my signature. Thank you
Terry Lee Stoker

Terry,

1. You can issue reputation - go to the post you approve of and click on the little scales in the upper right hand corner. You have the choice to either approve or disapprove and the option to comment (this is not required). So go find that post you love and spread the love, man!

2. You have two very similar posts here, I think one is a duplicate? Would you like for me to remove one for you?

 

[terryl965]

Terry,

1. You can issue reputation - go to the post you approve of and click on the little scales in the upper right hand corner. You have the choice to either approve or disapprove and the option to comment (this is not required). So go find that post you love and spread the love, man!

2. You have two very similar posts here, I think one is a duplicate? Would you like for me to remove one for you?

YES thank you shesulsa

 

[Kamaria Annina]

Great post, I couldn't have said it better. Through the years, I've learned a lot that there is much more than just the physical advantanges to martial arts. I definitely agree with your point on the mental advantages to martial arts. *thumbs up*

 

[Adept]

The problems I have with this article stem from one issue: the author doesn't attempt to clarify or define the martial arts. To me, the martial arts are a series of techniques and skill sets which allow a person to avoid violent confrontation, and allow them to handle themselves if avoidance is not an option. This article would have us believe that all martial arts are a form of whole life enrichment, which I would argue is not the case.

Breathing and meditation techniques do not enhance willpower or wisdom. They allow a person to regulate their breathing and heart rate, it allows a person a chance to focus on the task at hand, but it won't make you wise or strong willed. That only comes with life experience. Increased confidence and self-esteem are integral to the martial arts. As one no longer has to fear violent confrontation (be cautious, not afraid) they become more confident. When they realise they don't have to be a victim, and realise the level of physical potential they have, their self esteem will rise. It's not some magical, mystical process which must come after the physical stage of training, nor will these internal techniques allow you a deeper understanding of all things in the universe. It's just a matter of the person looking at themselves and their limits, realising they can do more than they thought, and thinking to themselves "hey, maybe I'm not so hopeless after all".

The article then goes on to state that only when we apply all of the principles developed during our martial arts training in every aspect of our daily life is our training complete. What hooey. How does one apply martial art principles? The article never outlays what these are. It never even outlays what a martial art is. By my own definition, which I work from, the above statement makes little sense. Some applications from martial arts training can be used in some everyday situations, things like not giving up or always trying your hardest. But most martial arts principles are purely physical. Application of force. Sparring, fighting and SD tactics and techniques. Exercise routines, and so on. The only aspect of my life where these things are useful, is during my training.

The article then makes some very spurious claims. Up to 80% of modern instructors have failed to develop the proper mindset? Thats an interesting figure. I'm sure the author has several objective third party sources which support this claim. Kind and calm predecessors? To the best of my knowledge, a great many of the Japanese grand-masters of history have been little more than highly skilled brawlers, deliberately starting fights for no apparent reason.

And then about the magazine articles with snarling faces?! Please, give me a break. The author claims these peoples views on the martial arts are superficial, because they did not follow his strict 3 stage training method. I say that whenever someone exerts themselves physically, their face will contort at least a bit.

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Martial art training was designed to help you find "yourself."

I disagree, which means you are wrong. By disagreeing, it means your blanket statement no longer applies by default to all martial artists. It now applies only to yourself, and those who agree with you.

What is your potential? How can you use your body? How can you use your mind? How can you apply your training to improve you life? Without going through these three stages you never understand your full potential in life.

These are all questions that can just as easily be answered by endurance running, swimmming, triathalons, heck even darts, lawn bowls or snooker. Last I checked, lawn bowls was not a martial art.


[/font]