TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by speedking668, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ah. If I'm reading this right, you're saying aiki could just be skipped. And yeah, it could. I've trained folks without it at times, and it loses a level of efficiency of movement and a set of options for recovery. Those aren't strictly necessary, but they are useful. If I was sticking to what was strictly necessary, I'd have to be prescient. Aiki training is really about developing options - I think that's most of the point of most training.
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Nope. You're back to an old argument we've been over many times. You take one option in our training, and generalize it as if it were all we trained in, in spite of the fact that I've told you more than once that we train other stuff.

    You're not stupid, so I don't know why you keep doing that. I have to assume you do it on purpose.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I did not think that at all.
     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I am not making a commentary on all of your training. And I specifically said that.
    You brought this up. As if me having a problem with you pretending to be street fighters like you see on youtube is somehow an example of me picking on Aikido.


    Ok. this is an example of a limp arm. It will not work without pressure on the overhook. The more pressure on the overhook the better it works.



    Can you please show me a video of exactly what you are on about and whether it matches this sort of training as you claimed or if it is some sort of other thing?
     
  5. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well no but you would need to make Aiki practical. And not able to be shut down by a bit of Aikido training.

    How many hours a week do you have to create a person who can reasonably defend themselves? Because most self defence gets a guy in 2 mabye 3 times a week. Which is a pretty desparate time frame to prepare someone to win a fight.

    If I suggested that if both people know judo then neither person can use their technique principles because the other guy also knows those principles. It would be blatantly false.



    Now here is an example of aiki.

    Same as the judo same as the limp arm. Same as every other martial rt that creates a position and then takes advantage of it.

    So there is something different between that. And what you are doing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    You're doing it again. You're equating the entirety of what we do with one part. See, in Judo, it's pretty easy to make something unavailable to your opponent. The problem is, he'll just use something else from Judo. That's the same for what we do. If they take away the aiki (the easiest part to take away wholly), then they can't come in as hard, etc. They'll open up to something else in our repertoire. Aiki is only part of the arsenal, and only one version of most techniques.It works where it works, and doesn't work in other places. And that's not unique. If you keep distance, you eliminate part of an opponent's repertoire. If you are standing, you remove part of his repertoire, etc.

    Let's go back to your Judo reference. There's a reason some of the rules exist in Judo competition - two experienced Judoka can actually stymie each other quite well, and very little will happen for a while. The current rules force them to be more offensive, which creates openings for their opponent.
     
  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You are doing it again.

    Is there a rule in judo where you have to act like some guy in a street fight on YouTube?
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Whataboutism, DB. Decide which point you want to argue, and don't use the opposite point to rebut my reply to that point.
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    What you are describing is not the same as the judo example you are using to describe it.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Then explain the error in that link, rather than changing the topic.
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There is no rule in judo where you have to act like a street fighter someone saw on youtube to make their technique work.

    Where you are training there is that rule.

    Pages and pages of this and you refuse to see that. You are desperate to justify this method but If you can't get your self defence techniques to work in real time. They are not very good self defence techniques.

    If you think I have the wrong impression of what you are doing. Go get a video of what you are doing to make it clearer. Because Aikido is notorious for doing exactly as you describe.



    You get that this is not self defence in any practical expression yeah?

    Where as TKD this is a practical expression of self defence.


    Because nobody has to pretend.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    You keep confusing Nihon Goshin Aikido with Aikido. Not the same thing. You keep trying to apply what you’ve seen of one art to a different one. Then you think I should defend it. That’d be like me saying BJJ is the same as another art also mainly derived from Judo, and must make all the same training mistakes that are common to the other art.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Okay, I'm back at my computer, so I can reply more fully. This may take a while, because you keep jumping between attacks. When I reply to one, you point at the other and say, "What about that, though?" So, I reply to that one, and you point back at the other, and say, "Yeah, but what does that have to do with the other thing?"

    So, I'll try to hit the major points all at once for you.

    Firstly, Nihon Goshin Aikido is not the same as the art simply titled "Aikido" (Aikido is both a single art and a designation of a group of arts, so it gets confusing). I've explained this before in threads you participated in, so you should be aware of this. So, any time you bring up something that's a common perception of Aikido - whether accurate or not - is rarely going to be relevant to NGA. There are no common perceptions of NGA - we're a relative unknown in the MA world, existing mostly in the eastern seabord of the US, with some outliers in 3 other states, I think.

    Next, you keep coming back to an approach to training for the principle of aiki and the movement related to that principle. I understand your basic objection to it, but you make two major errors in your argument:
    1. You keep ignoring that we all - yep, even those training for MMA - sometimes "pretend" as attackers. We feed drills with exactly the situation the drill calls for. Some - yes, some, but I'll get to that later - of the drills for practicing aiki use a specific kind of attack. It involves over-commitment of the weight forward, to train not adding muscle in an aiki flow (I can address why that is if you want, but won't here - it would take us off the topic at hand). This overcommitment is most likely to happen in one of 4 scenarios: drunk, madder than hell, untrained/uncoordinated, or have been drawn into it. The last one is what we work toward, but can't be initially trained - you need the movement before you can do that. So, the drills use movement based upon an actual overcommitment that actually happens. But nobody does it during training unless they screw up, so your suggestion that we should just wait for it to happen in training, and then use that to teach is beyond silly.
    2. You keep taking that one part of our training, and acting like it's all we do. You make that assumption despite the fact that we - you and I - have actually discussed some of the other things we do. You just keep acting like all we do is wait for someone to overcommit, or we're screwed. And, yet, you know that's not the case the same way you know we use that overcommitment - I've told you.
    Thirdly, you bring up the problem of failure of one response as if it's a failure of the art. Okay, so this is really a continuation of the previous one, but I needed a new paragraph to keep things organized. We let things fail. That's part of the flow of our movement (part of what we're working on with that aiki flow). If I get resistance to an arm bar, I know what that resistance is leading me to, and I let them fail right into the next technique. That principle applies across what we do - across the way I teach. If there's not a good grappling answer available, we'll beat them. We have options across a wide range - actually, not dissimilar to the range MMA works with (striking, takedowns, groundwork), though we take a softer flow to it and don't usually train it with the same intensity.

    Okay, now to the one you seem to have gotten lost in the middle of: that aiki can be stopped by someone who understands it. That's not as odd as you think. Remember, it's not the entirety of what we do (I covered that above). I'm not great at Judo, but I can take away hip and shoulder throws absolutely unless they are simply strong enough to haul me against my will. That's not a flaw in Judo, that I can stymie those. If I'm absolutely stymieing those, I'm very open to something like osoto gari. That's not much different from NGA's situation when aiki is taken away. We have other tools to use. The issue is that aiki - when your opponent knows that's what you train, and has any understanding of it - can almost remove opportunities absolutely. I say almost, because they'll sometimes - really rarely - still make the mistake of overcommitment. But it's far more common among the untrained, angry, and those who don't know what we're about to do. I've verified that last one regularly with new students coming in. They make that mistake more when they walk in the door (even if they have prior training) than they do 6 months or a year later. Avoiding that mistake is part of our training. So, while you see it as a problem that it isn't available against each other, it's actually a result of training. It would be odd, wouldn't it, if a Judoka was as easy to throw as a Karateka?

    Lastly (at least I think - I'm losing track of your jumping back and forth), you keep jumping back and forth. Pick one and let's discuss it awhile if you want to get somewhere. You usually have some good points to make, and I appreciate you being willing to push a point, but for jimminy sake, push one, rather than batting two of them back and forth as if they are the same thing.
     
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  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    s
    Show me a video of exactly the sort of training you are doing. Because it still sounds like you are feeding an attack in a manner you think a person on YouTube is feeding an attack.

    And if you are not a hundred percent sure of exactly what that attack entails you are shooting yourself in the foot technique wise.

    So if you are supplying the over commitment but not the speed. You will get false feedback.

    If you use different set ups and timing. You will get false feedback.

    And one of the biggest indicators of false feedback is when you go from drills to live resisted training training and your move falls apart. And this is what you are describing.

    As soon as your partner makes a fight of it your technique stops working.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    In some drills, we are. I sometimes use videos of attacks to build drills, to make sure we're not skipping attacks.

    I'm never 100% sure of anything. But I can see the mechanics of an attack, and can replicate those mechanics within reason.

    As with any drills, there are levels to these. Starting out, they are slow. Eventually, they are full-speed.

    There are different set-ups and timing in the actual attacks, so those vary from drill to drill, as well.

    Nope. The move doesn't fall apart. If someone messes up and provides that input in live sparring, the move absolutely works. You're confusing availability with reliability. A different version of aiki (not what I've termed "pure aiki" in past discussions) is available when the over-commitment isn't there, or we miss the timing for it. We move with what we're given, and part of what we learn is to feel/recognize that availability. If there's a bit of resistance in the wrong direction, we don't flow into that aiki move, but flow into whatever is actually available. That's what I meant by letting things fail - we don't pursue the technique we want. We let it fail early (as soon as we find that resistance) and move to something that's more available.

    Nope. The technique might not be available, but that's back to my point earlier about ground technique. Ground technique isn't generally available when everyone is still standing (there are techniques that show up both ground and standing, but not many). That's not ground technique failing - it's just not time for ground technique.
     
  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You are not getting practical imput from streetfighters. Your aikido guy who may never have been in a streetfight and may never have thrown a successful streetfighting punch has gone on youtube. Watched a successful punch and is trying to pretend to do that. Then you are defending Aikido guy who has never fought's punch and thinking that it is anything like a roided up neck tattoo throwing a shot that is designed to take your head off.

    The people who are feeding me whatever technique at whatever speed have successfully used the techniques they are feeding. That is why they are feeding it in the manner they are feeding it.

    So your guy is pretending to be something he isnt to create the illusion that your defence works. So you can drill that untill the cows come home. But you are not training to stop a streetfighting punch.

    You are training to stop an Aikido guy who is being forced to punch badly.
     
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok here is my point.
    This is functional training.



    This is stupid.


    The difference between functional training and stupid training is not exactly along the lines people think it is.
     
  18. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    How the hell is this argument still going on? And why the hell did I just read 477 posts of it?
     
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  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Mostly because self defence discussion is so completely consumed with misinformation and self interest that finding any sort of reasonable conclusion is a long process.
     
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  20. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    well, it's your own fault you read all 477 posts! :D
     
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