Tkd & hkd

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Kong Soo Do, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Uncle

    Uncle Blue Belt

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    The implied rule that since we were testing out skills against each other there would be no interference.
    That we would be nice enough to follow society's rules by not killing each other.
    That we would call 911 or drive the other to the hospital if either person required immediate medical attention.

    I ended one by knockout and one by verbal tap out due to strikes. I was actually the one who was playing nice.

    Actually it's funny that they're effective NOW but when they were allowed they weren't all that effective and that was in tournament style events where people had to fight another few opponents afterward.

     
  2. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    I have heard this before, but so far have not learned of equivalent terminology as it would be applied in Korean or Korean arts. Similarly, anyone who claims that any purely empty hand Jutsu art was for military conflict type battle field arts is in to the wacky weed.
     
  3. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Agreed. I'm not sure how much of any Jutsu type would have been empty hand. Seems like many were an outgrowth of weapons use such as sword, bo etc.

    As far as a Korean equivalent, I agree with you. Weapns use is more an add-in than an outgrowth.
     
  4. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I appreciate you telling us you have not really studied Hapkido. At least that is what I took from your answer. Because if you were also a Hapkido student, I think you would be able to think through the strengths and weaknesses of both systems. That had me, and apparently some others curious. And it gives us a way to evaluate your statements.

    I don't know about anyone else's style of Hapkido, but one of the first things I was taught was that there were no rules in Hapkido, except to protect yourself and subdue an opponent. Naturally we anticipated tapouts at some point in many techniques, but esentually we went full bore up to the point of causing damage. One has to develop a mindset of you know where to stop with a practice opponent, and where you would keep going to if you are in a real situation. You have to complete the technique, just often loosely enough not to damage your practice opponent.

    But in general, during sparring TKD style, a Hapkido practitioner is at great disadvantage in not being able to do a technique to full power completion. You learn to react instintively, without thought, to an attack. Then you find you must stop and consider something else so you don't maim or kill your TKD style sparring partner. Many times that will leave the Hapkido practitioner more open that would have been.

    But I am happy for you. You have bested two Hapkidoists so you can brag about it. I would be careful though, of how you choose any future Hapkido practitioners to spare with. I don't think you should count too heavily on keeping your win record intact if you don't. If you run across one who isn't well trained, one who has not been taught proper humility, and can over react to frustration, things might not go well for either of you.
     
  5. Uncle

    Uncle Blue Belt

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    Clearly you've not been following along.

    So you're saying every situation calls for deadly force? Funny because if that were the case almost ever hapkido practitioner would be behin bars after defending themselves as deadly force is rarely required. Now you're just hilarious. pretty sure I'm sure I'll be hearing other tried and true idiocies about not needing to follow laws and being tried by twelve than carried by 6.

    Now of our rules one was not a rule but the method of engagement since we were testing our skills against each other. The second was not a rule but a law. The third was some courtesy.

    They were completely free to use as much power as they wished and to attempt to maim me.

    See this is actually the reason I responded to the challenge of whether I had fought and beaten any Hapkidoists. When others try to use one or two anecdotes as proof of techniques I'm critiquing and I say that it doesn't refute my arguments or lend credence to theirs, suddenly I'm vilified for that. I am asked if I have sparred or beaten any Hapkidoists and I say I have. I am then asked under what rules in a sly attempt to devalue my story. When I provide rules which arent really rules at all and would not stop a hapkido practitioner from using their techniques full force, you devalue the high level Hapkidoists I fought in order to devalue my story.

    We've gone from:
    My technical critique of a select group of techniques in hapkido
    To me being challenged as to whether I have fought any Hapkidoists recently (since I have had training in Hapkido before and I couldn't be attacked that way)
    To every possible attempt being made to devalue my story by first attacking the rules I didn't set and then the Hapkidoists I fought.

    If you ever wanted proof of the fact that you're not interested in a technical discussion but merely praising your own martial art and getting hot under the collar when any bit of it is critiqued... There you have it.
     
  6. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

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    I always say that for every four Taekwondo schools there are you get one that is worth their salt. For every 10 Hapkido schools, you may find one that is any good.

    I think maybe some of us Hapkido people are on the defensive because (I personally feel) other styles and systems look down on the Hapkido. What I am trying to say is there are some great Hapkido systems and some that are not so good. I guess that is true with all styles. But with Hapkido, there's are a lot kooks. A lot of instructors that got their black belts in a year, six months and in some cases, in a weekend seminar. But there are some styles and systems of Hapkido that are great. A lot of great students, instructors and masters.

    I personally feel lucky because my grandmaster trained under the founder of Hapkido and he passed on his knowledge to my master and to me. My grandmaster lives in the same state as me. My master lives in the same state as me. So I don't have to fly to Korea for seminars to gain knowledge, I just drive an hour or two and I can train. I feel that I have learned Hapkido the right way.

    With that being said; to test what I have learned, I have went to Judo clubs, BJJ schools , Krav Maga schools, and other martial arts styles and sparred with them. If I'm allowed to start standing up and use what I know, I usually come out on top. If I have to play by their rules, it's a coin toss. I have yet been thrown by a judoka or taken down by a BJJ stylist. I got taken down by a collegen wrestler once but I wrist locked him on the ground and he submitted.

    I have two students (one black belt and one brown belt) that went to a Krav Maga school with me and we were throwing outer wrist throws all day long during their training. The brown belt was a girl and she threw a man during the training. The Krav Maga guys showed us the up most respect after we proved ourselves.

    My wife about 12 years ago at green belt level used her Hapkido to defend herself against two male attackers in Europe. She escaped after throwing one with a wrist throw.

    What does all the mean? I don't know except we train hard and our system works for us. I along with my students have proved it in mock combat in different martial arts schools and working as bouncers, police and security as well as defending ourselves when the time was needed. My masters have used their Hapkido in the military and against other people in other systems as well.

    I think (from what I read) Instructor and Kong Soo Do have trained hard in their Hapkido and it works for them as your art works for you. We all train to the best of our abilities and sometimes we win and other times we learn.

    For me, I feel like Hapkido is constantly under attack by other systems. I think sometimes the attacks are valid and I think sometimes we are lumped into one category of mcdojangs. The fact of the matter, we are not all Mcdojangs so the ones that are not, kind of get offended when we read stuff on blogs we fill are invalid.

    Anyways, that is my point of view, for what's it worth.
     
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  7. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Sorry if I have misunderstood. I'm not going to look back over all your posts, but if you mentioned training or belting in Hapkido, I missed it, other than after several requests. You then only mentioned attending a school that taught both TKD and HKD. BTW, what level did you attain in Hapkido?


    Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said every situation calls for deadly force. It does not. And I never said that. But self defense implies not letting oneself get hurt or killed. Many Hapkido techniques, in fact most, do not result in death.

    ...

    I'm sorry, I find that improper. You are talking about dueling, not sparring. I don't think good MA engage in such things. Did you mean something else?


    Well, again I'm not going back through all your posts, here and in other threads, but I didn't understand anyone to be challenging you on whether or not you had fought against Hapkidoists, but rather where you got your apparent great knowledge of Hapkido. If I am wrong, just say so and I will accept that. I also don't remember anyone vilifying you. Some of us here have strong opinions, just as you do. We may speak forcefully. Since many of us are like that, we tend to overlook that. You of course, don't have to.

    A sly attempt to devalue your story? That is just what you have done, so I guess I can only encourage you to develop a thicker skin.

    And I didn't see any rules except in this last post, and I must admit, I see that as more of yes we had them, but not so much what they were.

    I am think you are making some big and unjustified leaps.

    I am always interested in technical discussions. I'm not overly impressed by what appears to be BS in that it is unsupported by facts and/or common sense. I am indeed inclined to praise my art. You seem inclined to do the same. Why not? Why would anyone continue to study an art they didn't like?

    I hope I haven't said anything to make you think I am hot under the collar. I am not. I am also aware of the strength and weaknesses of Hapkido. All MA have that. That is one of the great things about a forum like MT. We get to compare things from other arts that we might like to add to our list of things that improve is as MA.
     
  8. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Maybe people are confused about you having trained in hapkido because it's not one of the arts you have listed as havig trained in on your profile.

    I'm not really sure how much training i hapkido one would need so they "couldn't be attacked that way," however. I imagine quite a bit.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  9. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    That is a good point. More importantly, Hapkido is primarily a defensive art, not offensive. Something Uncle seems to have a complete lack of knowledge about. You will seldom be attacked by Hapkido, rather you are more likely to be defended against by Hapkido.
     
  10. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    Hello all,

    I'm sorry, this notion is not strictly correct. While Hapkido's initial training is geared toward defensive action, the bulk of the material is offensive in nature with the general theory that the best defense is a faster offense.

    This has been an interesting thread thus far, and is really going in several different directions. But I would think that is an outsider looked at the state of Hapkido today, they would think it is a highly questionable art. Virtually no one stands by its Founder, most people do not have the entire curriculum at their disposal, and instead of learning it, whether it be here or in Korea, things are cobbled on and called Hapkido when they really have no use in the art as most of the situations that these "add ons" want to address are already dealt with with in full curriculum of Hapkido.

    I don't someone needs to be a student of Hapkido to be critical of much of what one can find say on Youtube...even a mediocre martial artist could see that most of the compliant stye "Hapkido" on there is lousy and useless. In many cases, in my opinion, Hapkido suffers most from the attempt to make the "circle more round" by thrusting add ons into a curriculum they really don't know.

    As far as the relationship of TKD and Hapkido, at least it is my understanding (and I have no idea about the Kukkiwon style, only with the ITF or General Choi) the General Choi approached Hapkido Master Chung Kee Tae and asked him to add some "ho shin sul" to the TKD curriculum, and thus the self defense techniques in the "orange book" are all Hapkido.

    I don't know if they complement each other or not.

    The point that the MMA ring is not a fool proof proving ground is well taken, as intent is often as much in question as is technique. A realistic street confrontation that lasts more than 30 seconds seems too long. Unless there is some overriding need to control someone, it seems the order of the day is to make sure you can extricate yourself from the situation and leave, not pin someone, etc.

    The jail guard topic was interesting. One of my earliest Hapkido instructors was GM Fred Adams, a slight but strong man that was a prison guard who was often sent into cells alone to extract prisoners, which he did with great efficiency, but I dare say that in today's litigious jail environment his methods would not be allowed.

    Lastly, while all the anecdotal stories are kinda fun to read, they are only really useful to "your" perspective, there is a youtube video that shows a BJJ guy "besting" a Hapkido guy....there is no information about the Hapkido guys actual background or technical skill, just that he was a Hapkido guy - so to me those types of comparisons are weak at best. That's really the same for the "I know my art works because me and my students have thrown down some whoop ***" - I have NEVER met a martial artist that was not a badass in his own mind at least...these types of comments used in context to show some level of experience are great, but otherwise they seem silly. And I know this because I know I am awesome at "gooseneck" locks - in a bar I worked at this guy was being unruly, and I got him in a perfect gooseneck and escorted him out the front door....YEAH, my technique totally works! - Except the guy went to his car, got his Mack10 came back and shot out every window in the club - but my gooseneck lock was perfect....its all context.

    Interesting thread. Everyones contributions have been great so far!
     
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  11. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    iron_ox - I have always read your posts with great interest and respect. But I guess the Hapkido you learned, and the Hapkido I learned were different. Or maybe I just didn't advance far enough in my Hapkido studies.

    All we learned until just before our black belt tests was defensive. Right at the last, we studied offensive techniques. For the most part, the offensive techniques were adaptations of the defensive techniques we had already learned. One could of course then think back and extrapolate offenses from other defensive techniques we had already learned. Maybe that was what you meant. I don't know. However, the majority of the techniques taught were defensive. I attained a 2nd dan black belt, and learned all the techniques for 3rd dan, but never tested.

    So maybe there are a lot of techniques after that which are offensive, that I just hadn't gone far enough to learn. But the fact remains, the way I was taught Hapkido was primarily defensive. A brief description of your Hapkido's training would be of interest to me.

    Regardless, again, I always look forward to your posts and read them with interest.
     
  12. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    Virtually every technique that can be done as a defense has an offensive component. And I agree that many motions taken at first to be defensive can easily be used for offense. There are however groups of techniques that are offensive in nature only.

    What type of training are you looking for a description? Happy to help if I can...
     
  13. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Well, I guess from your answer I probably have a better understanding. I am still inclined to say Hapkido is more defensive, but that is just the way I was taught. I certainly agree that much of Hapkido's defensive techniques can be used offensively. But I was taught it more as a defensive art.

    Thanks very much for your reply.
     
  14. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

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    Hapkido is a tool. You can smash someones knee or rotate their shoulder out of joint offensively or defensively. I personally feel that once combat is inevitable, in other words for better or worse (usually worse) I am commited to fight somebody. I go on the offensive.

    Kevin's right, if you can keep them on the defensive you decide the engagement.

    Not that I am looking to fight but if somebody gives me little option then it's best to prevail.
     
  15. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I always remember that line from Road House, "Be nice until it's time not to be nice".
     
  16. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

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    When I first transitioned to Hapkido I found no hyung (forms) to be nice. I never really enjoyed learning them. Now I find myself thinking I learned a great deal from my old TKD forms.

    One thing I like about Hapkido is it's just very different. I like things that are unique. With TKD I felt I was learning something generic. Not that it wasn't good, just really very similer to what others were doing all over.123
     

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