Tkd & hkd

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Kong Soo Do, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Uncle

    Uncle Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Exactly because it's not about this...
    It's about the fact that gross motor skills are more reliable and ones which go after the core/legs or secure the arm better work better against trained opponents and under adrenaline or exhaustion. Compare for example hijishime from aikido and standing waki gatame from judo. Hijishime secures the arm by grasping the wrists and going elbow to elbow. Waki gatame grasps the wrist and uses the body as the leverage point to break the arm. Waki gatame secures the arm better and uses more gross motor skills. It's more reliable as are most techniques (not all) which are competition tested especially in open rulesets like MMA.

    You can make similar comparisons with say wrestling and judo. A double leg takedown is far easier to set up and finish than an osotogari. And even though a double leg is more reliable than an osotogari, and osotogari is still more reliable than ikkajo from aikido. There's a reason wrestling techniques used to be allowed in judo competitions and aren't now. It's because judo used to be concerned with effectiveness. Kano even incorporated wrestling techniques into judo specifically for that reason. Now the Kodokan is concerned with maintaining the judo favour and not being shown up in their own competitions by wrestlers rather than making their skills and techniques the best.


    Cool story bro but we're discussing mechanics here, not anecdotes. Here I am critiquing the grappling aspect of hapkido, specifically the daito ryu techniques with the mechanics mentioned and for the reasons mentioned. One anecdote doesn't take away the physiological effects influencing the outcome of these techniques in concert with the fight data. All we can really say is cool story bro. You fought the guy off, good for you.

    Now these grappling techniques have their place but it is generally where there is no adrenaline dump and the opponent is not fully resistant. And I do love that hapkido seems to fluidly integrate striking and grappling, even moreso than many mma schools it seems.
     
  2. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,685
    Likes Received:
    816
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I don't think most require that fine motor skills. The techniques that are taught should work on all opponents. Ki should help overcome 'adrenaline dump.' Lack of resistance training has more to do with mercy for the practice opponent. Done correctly, there is no resistance possible for most techniques.
     
  3. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,685
    Likes Received:
    816
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I think I and Instructor have said this before. Hapkido is brutal. It is meant to take away an opponent's desire and/or ability to fight. If I cause pain every time I am attacked, the opponent no longer wants to fight because he doesn't want the pain. If I break something, the opponent no longer has an ability to fight.

    I am still unclear to what level you have studied Hapkido to make such statements about the art, never mind the dissing of Instructor. Subtly done, but dissing nonetheless, by such minimalization of his 'anecdote.' Is it possible he was defending against a resisting opponent? That he used mechanics and physiological effects?

    Mostly, I have to conclude you have never seen real Hapkido. I have. I don't claim to be the best, most perfect practitioner myself, but I have seen some really good Hapkidoists. My GM was one. I have seen many of his masters work out. You would not really want to take them on in real combat.
     
  4. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    8,406
    Likes Received:
    2,559
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    Uncle-have you ever trained in hapkido and/or close friends with someone who has? If not, then all you can do is argue theory, rather than practicality in terms of hapkido's viability. How could you know what it requires or how tough it is when under pressure if you never tried it? If you have, say so and I'll shut up, since hapkido is not my area of expertise.
     
  5. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,072
    Likes Received:
    573
    Trophy Points:
    213
    To be clear I wasn't dissing Hapkido as an art. I have enjoyed Hapkido lessons immensely. What I was dissing if you want to call it that was this statement from post #5 "Re: Tkd & hkd
    I have a 1st Dan in both. I think they're quite different in some ways, but also complimentary. Doing both allows you to be strong in both striking and grappling."

    AFAIAC if you want to be strong in grappling your time and energy are better spent in Ju Jitsu. All factors being equal I will take the JJ guy over the HKD guy in a grappling match anytime.

    I also had issues with this statement:
    "
    It's also important to remember that Hakido grappling is not sport grappling rather, it seems designed to do maximum damage with minimum effort."

    I beleieve it a "Truism" of Martial arts that the goal is maximum results for effort applied through efficiency of action which is another perspective on maximum damage for minimum effort. The minimum effort statement is common but I don't think anyone really thinks they are putting out minimum effort.

    I thought MMA competition did away with most of the "My art is too deadly for competition stuff long ago." Yes there is stuff in some arts that is not allowed in MMA.
    If your art concentrates in eye gouging, groin ripping, ear tearing, back of head and spine shots, small joint manipulation biting etc. then perhaps you have a point. For the rest, the acid test of the MMA ring is readily available.

     
  6. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    I too, have seen my GM and others at our club who are proficient at hapkido work out, full speed, full contact against random attacks and it's very impressive stuff. I would definitely not want to get into a "real" fight with any of them as they train to defeat an opponent as quickly and brutally as possible.
     
  7. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    143
    As with any art, you have good instruction and bad. I'm sure we can all agree on the viability of the 'grab my wrist' approach (not talking about initial instruction to newbies). Nor is throwing a half-hearted punch a foot to the side of our partners head and then leaving the arm hang in space long enough for them to grab it and do a cool move a viable strategy for good instruction. Hapkido, when taught properly with sound principles, as has already been stated, is downright brutal. It was meant to be brutal. It was meant to stop the fight right now. Taught properly (as can be said with Chin Na or Jujutsu) it is readily useable against violent, resisting attackers while under the duress of a chaotic fight. To be clear, it isn't going to look pretty. It won't be choreographed like the DVD's. But it does work. I can attest to this personally as I use more Hapkido principles against bad guys than striking principles. Maybe five to one. Done properly, it will lock the entire body of the attacker up to where they can't continue resistance (if compliance is what is required). If the situation requires something more dynamic, then it is a fine line between joint manipulation and joint destruction. And there is a fine line between taking someone down gracefully for submission and taking them down where they're arriving on the ground with broken bones/shredded tendons and/or ligaments. Hapkido lies between someone on the ground locked up and immobile and someone on the ground damaged and unable to move whether you're touching them or not.

    But it can and does work...if trained properly and executed with the proper mind set for the situation.
     
  8. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    When I got into traditional Hapkido at age 16 I just got my 1st Dan Black Belt in WTF Olympic Taekwondo. I originally got into the martial arts at age 12 to compete but my masters kept telling me to learn Hapkido as a self-defense. Once I obtained my black belt I thought it would be good to start cross training.

    Now, I'm 40 my Hapkido is my primary art that I teach and train in. We still have a rich taekwondo tradition at my dojang but I teach the Hapkido classes and just over see the much younger and athletic taekwondo group. The Taekwondo instructor at my dojang is top notch.

    I learned, trained and teach the two systems as separate arts. I'm not sure if I think they flow well together or not. I guess the kicking ability I have comes from my Taekwondo. The throwing is my Hapkido so I guess in a street fight they would flow back and forth.

    On a side note, those that say Hapkido doesn't work has not seen true Hapkido. My grandmaster was a ROK Marine and used his Hapkido to break out of a prison camp twice in Vietnam. My master is retired US Navial Special Ops and he used his Hapkido only once in combat (that I know about) but it worked and saved his life. I use to work security at some bikeweek concerts here in Daytona and I've used my Hapkido both solo and with other Hapkidoin just fine to break up fights and to walk someone to the door.

    I train in BJJ and Judo from time to time. At the end of the class a few of us will get together and roll or randori. If I am allowed to start standing, I have pulled off shoulder throws, hip throws and several types of fine motor wrist throws. I guess I practice them so much they happen without me having to think about throwing them as I am sure those who truly train in Hapkido would have the same experience as I have or Instructor has had in his self-defense situation.

    That is my experience with Taekwondo and Hapkido. I know it's a tad off track but this post went in several directions and I wanted to address what I felt was important. Just my two cents, thank you for reading
     
  9. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    Gloucester, VA
    I was watching some local BJJ recently with one of my students. It was impressive but privately I wondered how the match would go if one of the guys started eye gouging, biting, and breaking the other guys fingers. All arts have their place. Some fit better in the ring than others.

    Hapkido has proven itself in the real world many times, it's proved itself in prison's, at traffic stops, in mental institutions, and even on the battlefield. It doesn't need me to defend it.

    Not every technique works for every situation. For example if my heart is thudding in my chest and I have tunnel vision I would likely choose not to use one of or more precise defenses in favor of one of our simpler ones. It's like a toolbox you use the tool you need at the moment. Sometimes in life you need a precision screw driver and sometimes you need a sledge hammer, we have both.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  10. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,331
    Likes Received:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    263
    You do realize MMA rings are not real life. Its a game or sport. It has rules and refs and usually the fighters are not trying to actually hurt or kill each other. To say well they don't use this style in MMA so it does not work is silly. Real life is not a sport or a game. So no an MMA ring is not an acid test for an art
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  11. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    I am not taking anything away from BJJ. I am training it and I have added some ground defenses in my MuSool Hapkido. That may not be popular with the more Orthadox Hapkidoin but I want my system to work in every occasion and I believe if you do not add in some ground survival skills, you are doing yourself and your students a huge dis-service. That is the "MuSool" in my system. With that being said, I have never had to use BJJ is a street defense and none of my students have ever went to the ground in a fight. I don't ever want to go to the ground in a street fight. The BJJ people are very comfortable there and a good BJJ person would own just about anyone on the ground just like a good Hapkidoin will own anyone joint locking and throwing or for that matter a taekwondoin owning the kicking/punching game.

    Anyways, in BJJ class, there has been more than one occasion where a Jiujitsuka has been on top of me doing a transition and I could have grabbed his groin. There has been plenty of times when someone I have been rolling with loose sight of my hands and I could have went to the eyes or throat.

    For that fact, the first thing I teach on the ground is body control (wrist, head, hip and legs). BJJ and the Gracie's in particular are good at body control but in some sport schools, they loose focus of that in favor of gaining points. I attend a Gracie school and self-defense is first priority and then they work sport.

    In MuSool Hapkido, submissions are not focused on as much as controlling the person and getting back to your feet so you can throw them. If we can not get to our feet we have some submissions and dirty tricks up our sleeve as well.
     
  12. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    Gloucester, VA
    I also did not mean to slight BJJ in any way. I have the utmost respect. I respect all arts and ask only that others respect mine.
     
  13. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    143
    I missed Master Weiss's comments on this and have to agree with Ballen on this point. We had a rather lengthy discussion on this in the general MA section a couple of weeks back in regards to sport/MMA being viable for the battlefield/street. It isn't in any way, shape for form. I've touched on the myriad of reasons why in previous posts. MMA is a sport, and as such it is excellent for its intended purpose. And at the risk of turning this into a sport vs. self-defense thread, MMA/sport training is not applicable for self defense. There are some elements that are useful to be sure i.e. conditioning, being able to take a punch etc. But the methodology in general is not only insufficient but actually detrimental. The same can be said for self-defense training for sport competitions.

    They're oil and water in that they just don't mix. They will exist side-by-side in the same pan but will separate and seek their own level. [Hey...that's good enough for a fortune cookie] :uhyeah:
     
  14. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Oh, I didn't see that you had any disrespect on your part. I have never seen any disrespect on your part.
     
  15. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    Gloucester, VA
    I would also like to respond to Master Weiss. Hapkido is no more deadly than the average 13 year old with a handgun, disgruntled housewife with a vial of poison, or 300 pound thug with a heavy object.

    I just think that some arts are suited for competitive sport and some just aren't. If somebody grabbed me and I was overpowered and could not escape the grab or turn it to my advantage I would bend their finger the wrong way to escape. I would stick my thumb into their eye. If need be, I would bite them.

    It's not very sportsmanlike or even dignified, however it might allow a young woman to survive alive and un-raped.
     
  16. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    Gloucester, VA
    Going back to the OP. I once tried one of the Kung Fu styles. Don't ask me to specify style because I simply don't know, it was only one class. At the time I had a 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do.

    The teacher made me feel that not only was TKD inferior but that whatever we had we stole from Kung Fu. He then stuck me into a low horse stance and left me there while he taught his other students. When I eventually got tired and stood up he said that TKD people were weak.

    Comparatively the Hapkido school picked right up where I left off in Tae Kwon Do and helped me adapt what I already knew to situations I had never tried to deal with before. They put me against a wall and showed me the way out. They put me on the floor and showed me how to deal with that. They came at me with two and sometimes three people.

    I felt then and I still feel now that Hapkido and Tae Kwon do are very compatible, particularly if the teacher is good.
     
  17. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    I have ran across so called masters and instructors like that. They usually have poor self-esteem about themselves and their art and they are over compensating for that lack of confidence. . I have no room for people like that in my life. You are better off where you ended up.
     
  18. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,331
    Likes Received:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    263
    To go one step further you can't say bring your style into the MMA ring and see how it works oh but you can't do XYZ its against the rules but you can use the rest of your style. Well its not my style anymore when i need to follow your rules
     
  19. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,072
    Likes Received:
    573
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Some response to the point I was trying to make have gotten off track. I.E. the relative deadlyness of Hapkido as an art or for self defense. My comments were restricted to the relative strengths of Hapkido vis a is it's grappling aspects and those of JJ.

    It was not an issue of how well an art did as a whole in competition since competition severly limits what is allowed. However we do see techniques related to various arts in MMA. The frequency and efficacy of JJ grappling techniques versus HKD grappling techniques (although admittedly the lines of distinction are not always clear), speaks volumes.

    If you want to be a strong grappler and invest your time and energy in HKD that is your perogative.
     
  20. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,072
    Likes Received:
    573
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I consider this to be one of the great myths of empty hand arts (Although I have been in HKD classes where some weapons were taught and it's not clear from the post if the battlefield proof involved "empty hand techniques.)

    Sure there are anecdotal claims from empty hand arts about battle fiedl succes. Sometimes that they were designed for battle.

    I'll take the soldier / army with the weapon every time over the empty hand guy.

    How far back in istory would you have to go to find people sent into battle with no weapons?123
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

hkd vs tkd