Thoughts on flexible weapons nunchaku monkey fist flail meteor hammer etc?

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by jaime_lion, Jul 6, 2019.

  1. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    So I am not a fan of flexible weapons. Like they look good in routines but I have yet to really see the martial aspect of them. When compared to non-flexible counterparts I don't see any advantage. I am wondering your guys thoughts and if you guys have any stories of people using them in martial applications?
     
  2. rondave72

    rondave72 White Belt

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    Carry a katana down the street and people look at you funny.

    Wear a sack pack with a padlock hanging off one strap and no one bats an eye.




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  3. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    You work with what you have, and there are cases where what you have is a flexible weapon. They are used differently than shown in routines though, same with a lot of weapons.

    The bikelock attached to a chain, and a chain in general are used quite a lot by people also, its the easiest weapon to get. But there is a knack to using them, more so than another type of weapon.

    They work pretty well if you have the knack down to them. Plus you can restrain somone with them pending design better than you can a non flexable one, if its literally a rope with a weight at the end or a weighted rope, it has all the use that rope has.


    As for actual situations, just look at riots for the bike locks/chains and look at people using whips in general as weapons. Or their jacket (which i would deem flexable as its textiles)
     
  4. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    What I am getting at is there are better weapons. like a cane.

    But if I am going to go through the trouble of carrying a bike lock why not use a baseball bat?

    Not saying they dont work if you really really practice with them but for the amount of time and such I would put into training with a flexible weapon a non-flexible weapon takes less skill and is easier.

    I have looked at videos I can find on YouTube and I dont see flexible weapons being very useful.

    Also in what kind of altercation would I be able to tie someone up with a flexible weapon?


    Also what about historical uses for these kinds of weapons?
     
  5. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    As the point made above, a bike lock isnt as suspicious as a katana is if you are walking around. And if its a protest they generally do weapons checks etc. Or if its a county you cant carry weapons in you have a better defence if you grab a lock and chain you had a reason for carrying and using it to whoop someone with. (or its easier to hide on your persons than one long rigid piece of material)

    The the historical use is a mixture of above, it being uses as a means to arrest people and giving the person who was arresting them a method to defend themselves. Kind of like having a sword and pistol for when pistols were one shot/weak in power/unreliable to be shot. Depends where and when, a chain with a weight on it can break bone, but you can use it to joint lock people as well. Or its just something they have on them, like a whip would be used if you only had a whip on you. Chains are easier and less encombersome than a solid bar of steel as you can wrap it around your waist etc.

    Or its something someone has made as they dont have any other weapons available to them so they attach a weight or something to chain or cord, or grab a chain or cord to beat someone with. Or its a training instrument for further martial practice/demonstration for skill. Or anything above.

    A garrote is also a assassination tool as well and thats a flexible weapon. Some things arent meant for combat with people they are meant to be used to kill them from a good ambush.

    Underlying point is, you work with what you have and can get and everything has its place in use, only underlying issue is for flexible weapons the whipping motion isnt as natural as the clubbing motion you get with a club or knife. There is more of a knack to it and you can have it whip around and yourself. And of course personal preference/situation. you make the choice of weapon based on your situation and skill set.

    Some repeat points made between the quotes.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    To me, practicing flexible weapons is a way of rounding out your ability to use ordinary objects as weapons. Having some light competence with a range of quite different weapons (stick, staff, nunchaku, rope, etc.) gives you a lot of range. As for carrying, a lot of them (like the monkey fist) are harder for most folks to recognize as a weapon - and many of these started out as things that were ready at hand.
     
  7. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    Do you have any specific examples of people using flexible weapons in history? I have heard the generic " nunchaku started out as a flail but got turned into a weapon by people who could not carry a weapon" thing allot.

    What is your martial arts background Rat?

    Why would I carry a sword in this day and age?

    Joint lock and tieing people up seems like fantasy.

    A Garrotte works but I really wasnt asking about them in my original question. It possibly needed t be more clear.

    I see. With me I don't practice anything that I wouldn't carry with me like a sword. It is better to carry a purpose built weapon than use improvised weapons. I mean even in the UK I am sure you can still carry a cane. I would rather use a cane that I know and trust in a fight than allot of other objects. That is one of my "issues" with the martial arts to many archaic weapons.

    Here are some videos showing lock in sock attacks





    Here is a video of a guy getting hit by a soap in a sock





    Do You guys think I need to "empty my cup" Like am I not having an open mind enough with this stuff?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  8. rondave72

    rondave72 White Belt

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    Historically, I don’t think you can doubt the effectiveness of flails. And that’s what we’re essentially talking about, an improvised or easily concealable flail.

    The idea of concealment may be getting a wee bit off the original question of whether flexibile weapon are effective as rigid ones like a bat or staff, but I don’t think there is really any doubt that they can.

    The cane can be carried without drawing much attention if you look like you need a cane. 6’ 2”, 235 lbs. and looking like a college linebacker? I’m not buying the cane as a health aid. 55 years old, 42” waistline? More believable and really cool in the hands of someone proficient with it.




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  9. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    I have carried a cane multiple times I stop because it gets cumbersome in my daily activity. I have never had anyone ask, Do you need that? or anything. Actually the reverse is true people assume I need it and move out or my way and have asked if I needed any help. One time when I was 18ish I had a cane at a halloween haunted house. The guy warned me that there was a couple of spots in the haunted house that had a mattress on the floor and was worried I might fall. I said actually the cane is a prop and he was like ok thats good just making sure. I also had a kung fu fighting fan and possibly a kubotan with me at the time. Actually I was on a bus and to get around town and I pulled out my kung fu fan and said my costume was part geisha. Everyone on the bus who even knew what that was laughed which was 2 people and they explained it to everyone else. No one said anything about the fan being made of metal or anything.

    I tend to see this common issue where people worry to much about what people think of them. When in reality people are to concerned with their own lives to care.

    Flails were not very often used. One can speculate is that they were not very good compared to the counterparts of a mace or sword etc. Also carrying them becomes an issue.

    Also there is a biker gang in the USA that are called the Hells Angels. They carry around ball peen hammers because they are not a weapon. I would rather have that than a flail also.
     
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  10. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Weighted chain, forget the Japanese name, whips would have been used i suspect, rope probably would have been used as well, apart from the nunchcuks, garrote etc.The European flails are also present as well being used primarily against armoured opponents. And in modern day the bikelock on a chain is used (and that is a historic example as they precede the current day by a few decades, same with modern chains being used and people using decorative chains to flail people with)

    If you want specif primary source citations i cannot give you that and they are hard to come by and have certain issues with them.

    I have enough of a background to tell you begin whipped with a chain and padlock hurts and its overlooked unlike certain other things.

    It isnt as much of a fantasy as you might think, not everyone wants a lethal fight with you and not everyone could be armed everywhere across all peroids,so as a dual purpose weapon being capable of defending yourself with and also restraining people with its useful. As for rope, you need some form of rope or cord to restriant somone with so you might as well have it be a weapon in its own right so it can work as a auxiliary.




    And above, the point was concealability and legality. Replace sword with bat, club etc.


    if you dress right you can conceal a cane/swagger stick, also conceability and legality are both considerations to what weapon you use/have access to, both in current day and historically. So its not fully irreverent.


    Wait in the U.K, you cant be carrying a blade for self defence in the U.K, you cant carry anything for self defence in the U.K, it switches it to being a offensive weapon. i am 95% sure if something is stated as being for self defence it is considered a offensive weapon, if you USE it, maybe. But that would be post lawful self defence (i would hope) so you have a legal defence. for the third time to make it clear, in the U.K. :p (apart from N. ireland police can can get a pistol cert for self defence reasons)

    And as i said, the underlying point is, they have their place and their uses and some people fit the area of it being one of the weapons they can only get. you work with what you got and have and can reliably get. All weapons generally have their place, some are more specialist than others so fewer people have use for them in fewer situations.

    As a training instrument is also a valid reason for it being used, be that for its weapon type or to better understand other aspects of body movement.
     
  11. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    Here is a video talking about the issues with the flail

     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    My issue is that I don't really expect to be attacked. I plan for that non-expectation, and the fact that it's entirely likely I won't be carrying a weapon when the attack happens. I volunteer security at a courthouse, and have zero weapons at that checkpoint (and am allowed none). I travel a lot by plane, so a cane is about the only really useful weapon I could expect to carry - and that is a rather hefty inconvenience when traveling with luggage and training equipment. So, I train for the ability to make use of what I can lay hands on, rather than training for a specific weapon. I'm decent with a club or escrima stick (among other things), but I doubt I'll have either handy in most places.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, there are plenty of folks who are not particularly old or overweight and who look otherwise healthy who sometimes need canes. I teach and train martial arts, and have owned a few canes since my 20's, since my knees (and one foot) sometimes make them quite useful for staying on my feet when walking distances.
     
  14. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    The courtroom I was doing jury duty in only had sheriffs doing the security. Would you be allowed a 6 d cell maglite flashlight? Yeah I dont travel much if at all.
     
  15. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    So does anyone have any stories historical or modern of people using nunchaku or manriki chains or meteor hammers or rope darts or 9 section whips or 3 section staffs or 2 section staffs or a flail or any other historical flexible weapon I have not mentioned? I would like some stories even if they are probably just legend. I have asked for specific stories in my original post and no one has posted any.

    If you carry a flexible weapon how many of you have tested it to see how well it does? How much time have you practiced with it?

    If you have not practiced with it and dont know how it behaves why are you responding like you do?
     
  16. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You're missing the people (a good portion of us) who have practiced with it but don't carry it. I can theoretically use nunchucks. They would definitely not be my first, 3rd or 10th weapon choice, both from me not being a huge fan, not having a reason to carry them, and issues against other weapons. Also, people who are in/have gone to dog brother events have told me people that try to use nunchucks typically don't do well. Not sure if that's a training issue, environment issue, rules issue, or weapon issue, but it's enough for me to not devote more time to it.

    For those not familiar with nunchucks, and only know of nunchakus, here is a picture for reference.[​IMG]

    The goal is to throw (or "chuck") the nuns as hard as you can at your opponent, either resulting in the picking up their hands so you can shoot in for a double-leg takedown, or pausing them to help you run away. Douse them in holy water, and they become very effective against demons. Note: nuns are not life-size. Unless you're really strong, then they can be.
     
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  17. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    My nunchucks win in a fight against your nunchucks.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a8/8f/7b/a88f7b65e9d2e18722a478d8a08aacec.jpg
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Apparently biker whips are a thing.




     
  19. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Green Belt

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    Weapons... What a topic. I've trained in a number of weapons arts and arts that did some weapons training. I think the main reason to train in any weapon (unless it's part of your job), including modern weapons like firearms, is because it's interesting, fun and may teach you something useful about combat in general. In some cases (looking at you Aikido) they may be a useful tool for teaching the principles, movement and body mechanics utilized by the style.

    I got to participate in a small weapons demonstration that my Hapkido instructor put on for the few students who were really interested. He could do amazing things with a large handkerchief that definitely qualified as a flexible weapon. He was super creative with it and used it in a lot of different ways, to block, catch and trap, to increase leverage for throws (after catching a limb with it), as a distraction with a quick snap, and other things I don't even remember at this point, it was awesome! If he hadn't closed his school it was one of the things I really intended to pay private lesson rates to get him to teach me.

    He didn't teach it as part of the regular curriculum because he said it took way too long to learn and that adults in America with full time jobs and families and things could get a lot more value out of putting that time into the fundamental empty hand techniques. But he felt that way about all the weapons, he did some great demos with a very short thick stick that I can't remember the name of, the cane and some other things, but he didn't think any of them were worth the time they took to learn for most people.

    I would certainly agree that most flexible weapons, especially exotic flexible weapons like the rope dart, are pretty impractical if you're looking for a direct, real world application. I also suspect that very few people teach/train the more exotic ones with anything more than form demonstration in mind. I've never done any real training with any of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had some utility at least in some circumstances as a training aid for improving coordination, instilling an understanding of certain principles and that sort of thing. I also used to know a guy who could break a variety of things with the meteor hammer much like the guy does with the pots at ~2:10 in this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhW67MBO8M8

    I don't know if it could be used practically in a fight but I wouldn't want to get hit by someone who knew what they were doing with one either!
     
  20. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    Was looking for the video but I can not find it. There was a video where they tested a meteor hammer against a punch and they both had about the same force. The only difference was the meteor hammers was a punch 15 feet away or something like that.123
     

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