The Under Stop-Thrust

Discussion in 'Historical European Swords and Sword Arts' started by lklawson, Dec 22, 2008.

  1. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Hutton Sabre
    [​IMG]

    ManualdelBarataro
    [​IMG]

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    Great if it ends the encounter, but poor position otherwise!
     
  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Personally, I have little doubt that it is deadly or greatly injurious.
    However...

    My doubts run more to the observation that I doubt it is INSTANTLY a fight stopper. Sure, he may die 5 minutes latter. But, at the time, he may not even realize he's been injured, even if mortally so, and this leaves you in a rather unsafe and immobile position for him to attack while he doesn't know he's dead.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  4. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    This is another example of techniques not translating from one weapon to another. The stop-thrust as shown works very well with a sword. It will get you killed with a knife.
     
  5. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Master Black Belt

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    It is also a classic move in Italian rapier, pretty much exactly as shown.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  6. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    Certainly. But isn't a rapier a sword? :)
     
  7. jarrod

    jarrod Senior Master

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    i agree, but i think it may translate pretty well to the stick, esp if done as in picture #1. it looks like he has better body alignment & it would be pretty tough to close in from there.

    jf
     
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    It's a thrusting weapon but not an edged weapon. That's the issue!
     
  9. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    A rapier is a "cut and thrust" weapon. The point is used more often. The sharp edges are still there for a reason.
     
  10. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Master Black Belt

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    Yeah, I was just pointing out that some things never change, whether rapier or sabre. Straight out of Alfieri, IIRC.


    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    My understanding of the rapier is that if you had room and time enough to make a whip-like strike you could get a cut, but that the edges weren't really all that sharp?
     
  12. jarrod

    jarrod Senior Master

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    from what i understand, it's not that rapier edges weren't sharp, it's that the blade was too narrow to withstand the trauma of a chopping type of attack. you could however use a push-cut or a draw cut, where you push or pull the blade accross your opponent rather than swing it at them. kirk or lagenschwert would answer you better though.

    jf
     
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ah, OK--I though the sword was light enough that it was hard to get a good edge on it (and of course it lacked the mass for a solid cut). But, the WMAs are not my area!

    (Heh, and I complain about Filipinos not knowing their own arts, and look at me...)
     
  14. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Honestly, it depends on the Rapier. It's a kind of generic term covering a broad range of blades and hilt configurations. Some early "transitional" rapiers were, essentially, side-swords (Cruciform Sword-in-one-hand) with a complex hilt and could "chop" with the best of 'em. Others, though edged, were so long that the balance simply wasn't right to "chop" much (and attempting might get you sqewered for your trouble).

    What we typically think of as a Rapier today, is more often a transional Small-sword, but that's really Hollywood's fault.

    That being said, yes, the "typical" (if there is such a thing) Rapier could cut well enough. There's even a system designed for Rapier in which cutting (more than draw/push-cuts) is an essential component: Meyer's Rapier system. The only person I, personally, know who studies it is Stefan Dieke (though I'm sure there are many others). Stefan informs me that Meyer's system has moulinets and most saber-like cuts as well as more "traditional" Rapier thrusting and draw/push-cuts.

    It should be noted that I'm not a Rapier/Smallsword fighter and "pokey" swords seem sorta foreign to me.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  15. jarrod

    jarrod Senior Master

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    "pokey". hehe.
     
  16. Jeff Richardson

    Jeff Richardson Yellow Belt

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    Rapiers cut quite well enough. We use them to cut rolled tattami mats. You aren't going to cut all the way through the mats - nor are you going to hack off limbs or heads. However, I cut 3 to 4 layers deep into the tatami pretty regular when we do this. Translate that to a cut to bone in the arms or pretty deep into the neck and easily bloodying the face and head. These are generally the primary targets for cutting with the rapier.
     

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