The rant thread

[Don Roley]

White belt to Shodan in a year?

Dang, his checks must clear VERY quickly.

Well, fast risings in rank are not a bad thing all the time. I have a friend who trained for years and only got up to green belt before he came to Japan. He rocketed up in the ranks while he was here. His old teacher kept him jumping through hoops to beat some sort of control and loyalty before he would promote him. So he had the skill. It was just funny giving him hell all that time about how fast he rose in rank.

But if someone is acting like an idiot with a bokken just a year ago and is now wearing a black belt, well.... I would like to hear the reason why. I am less concerned about his lack of skill than in the danger he poses to other students.

But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.

This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.

And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.

 

[Carol]

Well, fast risings in rank are not a bad thing all the time. I have a friend who trained for years and only got up to green belt before he came to Japan. He rocketed up in the ranks while he was here. His old teacher kept him jumping through hoops to beat some sort of control and loyalty before he would promote him. So he had the skill. It was just funny giving him hell all that time about how fast he rose in rank.

But if someone is acting like an idiot with a bokken just a year ago and is now wearing a black belt, well.... I would like to hear the reason why. I am less concerned about his lack of skill than in the danger he poses to other students.

But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.

This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.

And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.

Legal hat on for a moment Don. If that idjit hurts someone, you are at far greater risk from those daytime TV attorneys than you would be if you dismiss someone dangerous.

You may need an attorney on your side to get your structure set up and to get all of your ducks in a row, but that's no different than any other business.

Plus with proper market positioning you can make your school less attractive to idjits and wanna-be ninjers.

 

[Don Roley]

Plus with proper market positioning you can make your school less attractive to idjits and wanna-be ninjers.

You have not seen some of the guys I have seen in the Bujinkan. There is an entire thread I started about weird people who want to try entering the Bujinkan.

Seriously, I know that I am in more legal danger if an idiot hurts another student than if I let them go. I am more worried about the person getting hurt than in legal troubles. But once I let someone in the door, it does seem that there is a danger of getting sued if I let them go later. The question is the risk worth the effort to teach the way I want.

Without a clear, understandable set of rules that can be shown to have been broken to justify tossing someone out, even a training group in my garage might open me up to legal trouble. But if someone just strikes me as not having the right stuff, that is not something I can show on a sheet of paper in front of a jury to cover myself.

"Why did you make my client leave your training group?"

"Isn't it obvious by his slack- jawed expression? The guy can't be trusted with lethal weapons!"

Yeah, that would go over real well. :shock:

 

[Carol]

But once I let someone in the door, it does seem that there is a danger of getting sued if I let them go later.

People can, and do, sue anyone for anything. That's not to say that such lawsuits get anywhere. I would strongly consider spending some time with a well-qualified attorney in the state where you will be teaching. While teaching out of a garage sounds simple, the legal bounds are incredibly complex.

So... Non-legal adivice...

If you teach out of your garage, and charge tuition, you risk trouble unless your home is zoned commercial. Most aren't.

Your homeowner's or rentor's policy may also be void if you run a businesss on site...again, that's only a factor if you charge tuition.

You likely qualify for having a private club, which gets around discrimination concerns. OTOH, such concerns will be reinforced with a personell miststep

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sometimes you have no choice.

Well if the person in question is in your dojo then yes it would be a tricky situation. However, sometimes honesty is the best policy and you might just want to tell the person that hey when I train with you I am afraid of being hurt so I would rather not train with you until you improve. If they person is your senior in the dojo that creates a whole nother interesting bag of worms. If it were me I would talk with your instructor and state how you feel. Good luck.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, fast risings in rank are not a bad thing all the time. I have a friend who trained for years and only got up to green belt before he came to Japan. He rocketed up in the ranks while he was here. His old teacher kept him jumping through hoops to beat some sort of control and loyalty before he would promote him. So he had the skill. It was just funny giving him hell all that time about how fast he rose in rank.

Yes, Skill is skill, and should be recognized. And I like the example you have given of training for a while and then getting rank in a shorter time frame this could be just that the person did not what to be ranked until maybe later in life they wanted to teach others. So, in his case it seems bad for why he did nto get rank earlier, but I can think of good reasons for the person on on this could happen.

But if someone is acting like an idiot with a bokken just a year ago and is now wearing a black belt, well.... I would like to hear the reason why. I am less concerned about his lack of skill than in the danger he poses to other students.

Yes the danger factor is a major concern no matter the art.

But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.

I have had this talk only once. The guy hurt others outside of class. I told him he should not train until he understands what he did wrong. Walking through a reception line and trying joint locks on people is just wrong.

My local Modern Arnis Instructor when I started has always kept it small. If there was someone who needed help money or time he always tried to help and offer them training as long as they were serious and tried. Yet, he also would talk to people about how they do not come to class regularly or how they seem to be very hesitant about this aspect of the art, so maybe they should try training somewhere else. If the student just not like the risk of getting their hands hit wth sticks (* Surgeon / Musician *), then we can guide them elsewhere.

I think the key is that you do not tell them they absolutely cannot, but that they just seem not to fit in and or are not somehow meeting a standard even though it is just verbal. I mean one could say it was a control issue, for you alone could make that judgement as the instructor that he moved to fast with not enough control in dangerous situations, or that they were late all the time and just seemed not interested so you jsut explained to them that maybe training elsewhere would increase their enthusiasm.

Also if it must be absolute, I would do it one on one so it is his word versus yours.

We have told people we do not train children. There are lots of programs out there that do. We do not, unless the parent is a studnet in the class as well, and then the child must be paying attention and interested and showing desire to learn, and this usualy does not occur until the mid teens, and even there it is hit or miss. The Parent aspect is not to force them to go away, but to make sure the parent understands and has felt what the student is learning. We have never had student / parent try to say we are discriminating against them this way.

When I was asked after the one case where I told him he could not train, I replied that I cannot unlearn what he has learned, but I do not have to teach him more, and would be in my opinion at risk if I did so, knowing what he had done.

This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.

And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.

I tihnk Don, which I was trying to get too above, is that if you make it about safety and security, and also a binding agreement, it is like a lease of an apartment from month to month, with 30 days notice either can end the relationship and there is no cause for recourse. If you look at it as a business transaction you can end the transaction, and if you refunded their last payment, they would not have any money issue to come after you and it also shows that you were not dismissing people and trying to keep their money. As to the safety and security, you can let them go as they have not meet your standards. The only issue I could see with this is that if after a few months or years you only let White Males go no matter what, then one could say there is a pattern to go after you. (* I know you would not, which is why I can raise this point. *)

Also remember you have to have something of sufficient value for them want to go after, so if you have a big business, and lots of money personally, from work or family, it might be best to make sure before you teach you are incorporated with a Limited Liability (LLC) which means that they can come after you business and not you, in most cases. I am sure there are exceptions to this as there are always.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Is this guy in your class? Was he graded by your instructor? Why would you have to train with him if that is not the case? If your teacher is giving black belts to dangerous morons, then you have to consider the school you are in.

I don't even know where he trains regularly. I saw him at a seminar.

Another reason I'm currently training where I am is that we have people who received shodan in two years from having started training - and who deserve it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If it were me I would talk with your instructor and state how you feel. Good luck.

Not the easiest thing to do when you're away from "home". Besides, when I've done what Don suggested doing to people who get too enthusiastic, those same people talk to senior instructors about me.

 

[jks9199]

But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.

This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.

And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.

I can assure you that it's not limited to the Bujinkan.

I've seen two effective approaches to students with poor control, bad attitudes or who are immature. My teacher has (rarely) asked students not to return to class, and told them explicitly why. "I'm sorry, but until you can avoid injuring your training partners, you're not welcome here" for example. (Students often send the first clue as they avoid pairing with that person.)

The other approach is to ignore them. The biggest clue that you're in trouble with my teacher is when he STOPS correcting you in class; that's when you know he's written you off. His comments to you end up being something like "That's OK" and only when he's asked.

The drawback to the second approach is that, with people that you don't trust with dangerous techniques, you have to modify what you teach. I've been fortunate; I've never had to face that, expcept that there are things I don't teach in classes with younger students.

 

[Fu_Bag]

You have not seen some of the guys I have seen in the Bujinkan. There is an entire thread I started about weird people who want to try entering the Bujinkan.

Seriously, I know that I am in more legal danger if an idiot hurts another student than if I let them go. I am more worried about the person getting hurt than in legal troubles. But once I let someone in the door, it does seem that there is a danger of getting sued if I let them go later. The question is the risk worth the effort to teach the way I want.

Without a clear, understandable set of rules that can be shown to have been broken to justify tossing someone out, even a training group in my garage might open me up to legal trouble. But if someone just strikes me as not having the right stuff, that is not something I can show on a sheet of paper in front of a jury to cover myself.

"Why did you make my client leave your training group?"

"Isn't it obvious by his slack- jawed expression? The guy can't be trusted with lethal weapons!"

Yeah, that would go over real well. :shock:

OK. I have some dumb questions. I apologize in advance for probably missing the obvious.

1. Isn't there an entrance interview before being accepted into the school?

2. Don't you have to sign a legally binding document with the "Rules of the Bujinkan" included in order to become a Bujinkan student?

3. Don't some of the rules state that you accept all responsibility for injury and agree not to cause legal trouble for the Bujinkan if you're injured?

4. Isn't there a clause that states that you can be forced out at anytime for being a troublemaker, for engaging in any type of criminal behavior, or for having a criminal record?

If people sign such an agreement, is it that easy to turn around and successfully sue a school or instructor?

I'd think it'd be kind of hard to use "gut feeling" and "I've been trained to be very sensitive and I have a bad feeling about you" as legal grounds for refusing students.

 

[Cryozombie]

Yeah, Don, I think the easiest way to cover your own butt would be to make everyone sign a waiver, and as part of the clause in the waiver, state that any student, at your discression may be asked not to return to training.

I think that should cover you... It might not stop you from getting sued, but It might help keep them from winning if they are that stupid...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yeah, Don, I think the easiest way to cover your own butt would be to make everyone sign a waiver, and as part of the clause in the waiver, state that any student, at your discression may be asked not to return to training.

I think that should cover you... It might not stop you from getting sued, but It might help keep them from winning if they are that stupid...

I have such a statement in my application form. (which was also looked over by a competent lawyer)

 

[jks9199]

I have such a statement in my application form. (which was also looked over by a competent lawyer)

The catch with a waiver is that, depending on the state, it may not reduce responsibility. It's a really complicated area of civil law and I'm not qualified to opine on it beyond that. And, in the US, ANY lawsuit can go forward for ANYTHING.

The bottom line is that martial arts training is inherently dangerous, and will teach techniques and skills that can be misused, and instructors have no real control what a student does with those skills once they leave the training hall. Now, an instructor who continues to teach dangerous techniques to someone who has demonstrated that they'll abuse them... He's liable to open himself up to a lot of problems.

With regard to application processes and interviews, they're limited. Consider that most police departments have stringent application processes that try to weed out the people who will be untrustworthy or commit acts of brutality, yet they still happen. Sometimes, there's no way to tell about a person until they have that authority or knowledge. I'm not suggesting that you not have an application process or interview -- just that you realize that it is limited.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The catch with a waiver is that, depending on the state, it may not reduce responsibility. It's a really complicated area of civil law and I'm not qualified to opine on it beyond that. And, in the US, ANY lawsuit can go forward for ANYTHING.

The bottom line is that martial arts training is inherently dangerous, and will teach techniques and skills that can be misused, and instructors have no real control what a student does with those skills once they leave the training hall. Now, an instructor who continues to teach dangerous techniques to someone who has demonstrated that they'll abuse them... He's liable to open himself up to a lot of problems.

With regard to application processes and interviews, they're limited. Consider that most police departments have stringent application processes that try to weed out the people who will be untrustworthy or commit acts of brutality, yet they still happen. Sometimes, there's no way to tell about a person until they have that authority or knowledge. I'm not suggesting that you not have an application process or interview -- just that you realize that it is limited.

True a waiver is just a piece of paper and in the States here anybody can sue anyone for anything at anytime. However if you take prudent steps and have shown that you made the participant aware of things then you are in a far better legal position.

 

[Fu_Bag]

The catch with a waiver is that, depending on the state, it may not reduce responsibility. It's a really complicated area of civil law and I'm not qualified to opine on it beyond that. And, in the US, ANY lawsuit can go forward for ANYTHING.

The bottom line is that martial arts training is inherently dangerous, and will teach techniques and skills that can be misused, and instructors have no real control what a student does with those skills once they leave the training hall. Now, an instructor who continues to teach dangerous techniques to someone who has demonstrated that they'll abuse them... He's liable to open himself up to a lot of problems.

With regard to application processes and interviews, they're limited. Consider that most police departments have stringent application processes that try to weed out the people who will be untrustworthy or commit acts of brutality, yet they still happen. Sometimes, there's no way to tell about a person until they have that authority or knowledge. I'm not suggesting that you not have an application process or interview -- just that you realize that it is limited.

Mmmm.......The sweet sting of reality!!!! Honestly, that sucks.
Damned if you do, damned if you do. So, this still leaves open the question of "how do you legally weed your garden of bad, or undesirable, students?". I've heard it said that, eventually, bad students end up weeding themselves out.

I don't doubt that's true but the damage they can do up until that point is still a problem. I think the old timers' view has been expressed as "(sigh) In the old days we could just kill the bad students (sigh)". I would think the potential damage to your school's ability to attract good students would be harmed by the existence of bad students or, even worse, bad black belts. Thank Heaven there's still the Godan test to regulate opening your own school.

 

[buyu]

Why not fake an injury and have the instructor kick them out, you would have to of organised it with the instructor first. The situation should never eventuate to that though. If it is pointed out to the person politely what is wrong with the way they go about their trainning then they would, if they truely want to learn, change the way the work with others in the dojo.
Explain to the person in question that the other ppl in the dojo are having trouble training with them and if it keeps up ppl will just not train fullstop with them and then whats the point of coming to training. My point is that you can find ways honorable or not to get these people to leave and whats honorable or not is up to you but if you prevent harm to others in your dojo by tricking this person then is it not honorable.

 

[Bigshadow]

I always thought the out-of-hand student always got have the instructor as a partner for some enlightenment training! :EG:

However, in a small group such as where I train, it is easier to manage such things. Having more students would definitely make things more complicated.

 

[Alan Witty]

Ha Ha. This was good enough to figure out how to use my membership here. Besides I was grading papers and was sooo bored.

On the muscle thing as I recall when I first met Don I had lost my left distal bicep tendon to an overpowered uke. Or that might have been the next year. Still works.

Besides I have seen Dale deal with many the strange Ninjer. Of course one of his favored methods is no longer in the US.

On this particular point you have no issues. Your Dojo is like any business. You have no obligation to provide services, period. Well you do if there is a contract. Besides come to Colorado. I would be happy to be a student again and I have a nice but sometimes chilly garage, ask Dale. And the dogs attend class.

Sorry I missed you in Japan. I did make it to Nagase's and it was great. Was hoping to see you but is sounded like you were busy. The trip was great. It reminded me of how lousy I am. More work to do.

On the formal Shidoshi issue I have seen that a few times. In one case after seeing a form I went to train with another fellow. I always tend to want to feel what I have seen and said, "ok I will attack" The fellow insisted that I go first. Well we went back and forth like a vaudeville routine. Finally I asked what the trouble was. The other fellow said I was senior so should be Tori first. As I never wear a rank patch, well with the exception of the glowering picture on the web site, I wondered on this as we both had black belts. Was mine worn and old --maybe I was. Anyway it turns out that this fellow was taught that the senior was always Tori first.

How weird.

 

[Bigshadow]

Anyway it turns out that this fellow was taught that the senior was always Tori first.

I have heard the same as well. Although, I believe there is some real reasons to do that, but not out of respect, but out of understanding of what is being done. If the senior student is tori, the uke can feel what it is supposed (or nearly) to feel like, this is something that is important. I am always jumping in to be uke for the instructor in the demo part of the training. That way I can feel what is happening and I can transfer that feeling when I pair up with a partner.

However, it becomes far less important who is uke and tori first when the students are very close in rank (in a perfect world anyway ).

 

[Don Roley]

In one case after seeing a form I went to train with another fellow. I always tend to want to feel what I have seen and said, "ok I will attack" The fellow insisted that I go first. Well we went back and forth like a vaudeville routine. Finally I asked what the trouble was. The other fellow said I was senior so should be Tori first. As I never wear a rank patch, well with the exception of the glowering picture on the web site, I wondered on this as we both had black belts. Was mine worn and old --maybe I was. Anyway it turns out that this fellow was taught that the senior was always Tori first.

Hi Alan. Welcome to martialtalk and I hope your expereince is a good one.

As for the higher ranking person going first, yes that is the way it is typically done in many Japanese arts. Actually, the person in the uke position is usually the one doing the teaching. They set up the perfect attack for the techique to be done. There are very few things that are wrong in martial arts. Really you are talking about things that are inappropriate to a particular situation. The uke sets up the situation where the technique being done is the one best for the situation so that tori can get used to identifying and working in that situation.

Of course, now days people don't even bother to see what the uke is doing and just do whatever the hell they want when attacking. :soapbox: It is one of the reasons I look for a good uke almost more than I look for a good teacher.

To give a concrete example- if you grab my lapel and shove me back, I can use that motion to move into something like setsuyaku or hoteki where your elbow is hyper-extended. If you grab and pull me in, I can use that motion to go into something like oni kudaki or musha dori or evena modified nichigeki (great for the typical grab). The problem is when the idiot you are working out with tries to shove you back when you are supposed to be working on musha dori and you can either do something other than what the teacher is showing, or you can train yourself to do something less appropriate for the situation.

Sometimes I really want to smack my uke around.:whip: Am I the only one? I actually made choices on what classes to go to based on whether there would be people I trust would be there to work out with. But every so often I get someone who is trying to do an attack that is somewhat different from what the teacher's uke is doing and actually seems amis that I want him to do the technique as shown instead of trying to modify the move to the new attack. :tantrum: