You go Don! That would be a lesson!
The rant thread
- Thread starter Don Roley
- Start date
You go Don! That would be a lesson!
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
There are a lot of training maxims floating around that not everyone seems to know how to put to proper use. "Shut up and train" won't bring anything good with it if it results in scenarios such as those Dale is talking about.
Some people are fond of saying that since training is about "programming"
a behaviour into yourself, you must not simply stop what you're doing and start over again if you screw up, you have to keep flowing into the next technique and adapt to the situation.
Now, for shidoshi and shihan, this goes without saying - you shouldn't have to talk about it or even notice when they're doing it. But that won't do anything good if you keep saying it to people in their early kyu grades. Even if it doesn't result in one big mess, it'll send signals to the person they're training with that they have to prove something about themselves (not to mention that every time I HAVE managed to have conversations about this issue, it's degenerated into old clichées about how free Budo Taijutsu is as an art and that it doesn't matter in a real fight because blah blah blah blah...).
Same goes for making an effort to train with various different people. I've told people to do just that several times, but see, the only ones this really matters to are those who care about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. It's just not that important to those who just come down because they enjoy the training and want to move around a little and feel better about themselves.
Some people are fond of saying that since training is about "programming"
a behaviour into yourself, you must not simply stop what you're doing and start over again if you screw up, you have to keep flowing into the next technique and adapt to the situation.
Now, for shidoshi and shihan, this goes without saying - you shouldn't have to talk about it or even notice when they're doing it. But that won't do anything good if you keep saying it to people in their early kyu grades. Even if it doesn't result in one big mess, it'll send signals to the person they're training with that they have to prove something about themselves (not to mention that every time I HAVE managed to have conversations about this issue, it's degenerated into old clichées about how free Budo Taijutsu is as an art and that it doesn't matter in a real fight because blah blah blah blah...).
Same goes for making an effort to train with various different people. I've told people to do just that several times, but see, the only ones this really matters to are those who care about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. It's just not that important to those who just come down because they enjoy the training and want to move around a little and feel better about themselves.
This scares me.
Thanks for sharing.
PS: Don how is the elbow, and I hope it is better.
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Dale, I don't doubt you, but I can't comprehend training that way.
The learning process seems to have been completely abandoned in that many just don't learn that way.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #147
I can rant about that. Reaaaaaaaal easy.
There is some protocal in Japan. If you come here, you should learn them. But the cases like what Dale talks about just does not really happen here. Yes there is a pecking order. But the whole image these people are laboring under just is not a reality here.
You come in, you show respect to the teacher and you act in a quite manner. The para military thing is not the way things are done in all the schools I have been to. I have heard stories of hell dojos in some arts in Japan. But they are talked about because they are so rare. I have some Japanese friends that do martial arts and I just showed them the Rex Kwon Do scene and they thought it was hysterical. Not something they see here.
I have complained about a group called the Saito ryu with their very silly parody of the way things are done in Japan. I have long heard about things like this in certain Bujinkan dojos. I guess they are true.
And what do you want to bet that the group is not one that comes to Japan, or if they do it is only the teacher. After all, it would not do for people to see that things are not run like Stalag 17 in Japan.
Oh, and the not letting students train with other instructors... that I have heard and can believe. The teacher I call the evil one used to try to keep us away from other teachers. 'Cause all of us that did see other teachers ended up leaving him.
Oh, and thanks to all the people that chimed in on my elbow. If I get a good partner that won't try to rip my arm off I should have no trouble training tommorow. It is not the worst it has ever been. But an hour after a class of having Setsuyaku done a few times at full force, it kind of was not the best it has ever been by a long shot.
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
I've noticed lately that nowadays a lot of people tend to go "oooh" and "aaah" whenever somebody is pulled up for a demonstration and gets hit so hard that the sound of impact can be heard, or even if he's just subjected to a visible amount of pain. This, to me, is another sign that we're getting sloppier and lazier in training. When that happens where I train, the most you're going to hear are amused giggles.
I don't know how your classes are -- but when I teach (and the way I was taught) is that there's a time for talking and a time for listening. When the teacher is demonstrating/explaining what you're to be working on -- mouth shut, eyes & ears open. If you're drilling in a line (no partner), there's little need to talk unless you have a question about how to do the exercise. Working with a partner? You need to communicate. Your partner needs to let you know if you're doing what you're supposed to be, if what you're trying to do looks like what was demonstrated, and so on. Especially when your partner is senior to you, he or she might explain or expand on the technique to help you understand it. And, of course, you have to communicate if you're being hurt. And if you hurt your partner carelessly (like, say, muscling a technique or doing something full force when you aren't supposed to), SORRY or an equivalent had better be coming out of your mouth!
My teacher encouraged us to train with others that he respected -- but the rule was that in his class, you did it his way. I generally do the same, though I've got one student that I'm getting close to telling not to train with any one else for a bit. He's got a tendency to pick up the wrong pieces, then have major difficulty laying them down... Or he will mimic what someone does without understanding it, so he doesn't copy it right. (Anybody else have students that start picking up silly stances/hand movements/etc from video games?)
Glad to hear you're on the mend, and I hope you draw a better training partner next time!
Which lets me segue back to training partners... Someone else talked about training with different people. That's one thing that I've seen happen in different places; people always work with the same partner. And they get amazingly good -- with each other. I always try to mix students up as we work partner drills, so that they learn to apply techniques on different body types...
OP
- Thread Starter
- #150
One thing about rank that disturbs me is the way some people will give it out and accept it from anyone.
I have always thought that you accept rank from your teacher. The key words being your teacher.
But you know, there are people out there that will train in a school with a teacher, but if another teacher at a seminar offers them rank, they will accept it.
On the other hand, I am distrubed by the idea that people would offer rank to folks even knowing that they are training under another teacher.
In the past I have trained with people and had others come up to me and say they want to put me in for another rank. I refused. If Hatsumi offered it, I would of course accept it and know my teacher would have no trouble with it. If he did have trouble with the head of the art giving out rank to me then I think I would have trouble with him. But I do not think the guys that offered to sponser me for rank knowing that I have a teacher were trying to do me any favors. I think they were trying to get a little bit of control over me. The guy I train with every week is the guy that should reccomend what rank I have to Hatsumi. It is he that I want to represent me just as he takes responsibility for making me a better student.
Loyalty is important to me. I give it grugingly and take it away just as grugingly. I really have to wonder if the people that want to sponser me think that I am so cheap and fickle a person as to turn my back on my teacher for a piece of paper and a pat on the back.
But then again, there certainly seems to be no shortage of people in the Bujinkan that will sell their honor that cheaply.
I have always thought that you accept rank from your teacher. The key words being your teacher.
But you know, there are people out there that will train in a school with a teacher, but if another teacher at a seminar offers them rank, they will accept it.
On the other hand, I am distrubed by the idea that people would offer rank to folks even knowing that they are training under another teacher.
In the past I have trained with people and had others come up to me and say they want to put me in for another rank. I refused. If Hatsumi offered it, I would of course accept it and know my teacher would have no trouble with it. If he did have trouble with the head of the art giving out rank to me then I think I would have trouble with him. But I do not think the guys that offered to sponser me for rank knowing that I have a teacher were trying to do me any favors. I think they were trying to get a little bit of control over me. The guy I train with every week is the guy that should reccomend what rank I have to Hatsumi. It is he that I want to represent me just as he takes responsibility for making me a better student.
Loyalty is important to me. I give it grugingly and take it away just as grugingly. I really have to wonder if the people that want to sponser me think that I am so cheap and fickle a person as to turn my back on my teacher for a piece of paper and a pat on the back.
But then again, there certainly seems to be no shortage of people in the Bujinkan that will sell their honor that cheaply.
I agree; your teacher should determine when you are ready to test or should be awarded a higher rank. I spent many years at brown belt (one step below black), with many people in my system asking me when I was going to test. My answer was simple; thanks for the compliment, and I'll test when my teacher says I should. When his students reached the black belt levels, my teacher left promotion up to his own teacher...
I'd never offer another person's student rank, for many reasons. I might, in coordination and cooperation with their teacher, serve on a testing panel or perhaps even (very rarely!) speak to someone's teacher and suggest they promote someone that I believe is deserving of higher rank, but I'd still defer to their teacher. If someone came to me after training with someone else in the system -- they'd "keep" whatever rank they were given, but I might have to work to bring them to my standards. They wouldn't be promoted until I believed they were going to be around for a while!
But I'm fortunate. Until quite recently, rank wasn't that big a deal in our system. Occasionally training opportunities were for black belts only, and even more rarely for higher ranked black belts. (Often, those were by personal invitation from the chief instructor.) And that's how I teach, too. I've taught classes of mostly black belts and classes of mostly beginners. The lessons are the same; I just expect students to learn it at an appropriate level.
The idea that people are promoting students (in any system!) at seminars or while they visit another school... That's just mind boggling! How do you know that you just didn't catch the student on their very best day ever, and ordinarily they can barely tell their left foot from their right hand? I guess I can see two possible reasons. One exception; if the whole purpose of the seminar is testing/advancement. (Not exactly something that I see happening much from what I know of the Bujinkan systems...) The other? If my teacher came to my class, and wanted to promote one of my students -- I'd take his guidance, of course! (I don't see him doing that, though. He's much more likely to "suggest" the promotion to me...)
Hey Don,
That is annoying and unfortunately seems to be one of the things I dislike about the Bujinkan. You are absolutely right in people trying to position themselves and create a sort of debt that you owe them. However in the scheme of things we just need to continue to work on our skills and not really worry about what everyone else is doing. Personally for me the true test is in ones ability and not what one wears around your waste.
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
You *can't* totally ignore what everyone else is doing. Mainly because the actions of the people you train with affect your own development as well.
I recently discovered that the lowlife who wore a white belt a year ago and almost broke my nose with a bokken by accident now has a shodan. Sooner or later, something's got to give.
I recently discovered that the lowlife who wore a white belt a year ago and almost broke my nose with a bokken by accident now has a shodan. Sooner or later, something's got to give.
I agree that you cannot completely ignore everyone. However, you do not need to train with just anyone. I know plenty of people who will only train with someone they know well and like to train with.
kouryuu
Yellow Belt
As he`s a blackbelt now, YOU can hit him harder!!!!!:lol:
Yes, he should be able to get out the way right? :uhyeah:
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
Yes, if I want to receive more uncomfortable emails.
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
Sometimes you have no choice.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #159
Is this guy in your class? Was he graded by your instructor? Why would you have to train with him if that is not the case? If your teacher is giving black belts to dangerous morons, then you have to consider the school you are in.
White belt to Shodan in a year?
Dang, his checks must clear VERY quickly.
