The pope...

[dbell]

If it really is a disease, the priests involved would not go to incredible length's to cover it up. Let alone cover up for eachother.
Funny how people under the vow of celibacy suffer the most from this disease, and people who have normal sexual relationships suffer less from it.

Actually you have it wrong here. There are as many cases of lawyers, doctors, police officers, ministers from other religions (without celibacy rules) as the Catholic priesthood, involved in pedophilia . In fact, percentage wise, the Catholic priest hood may not be as high as some of the other categories. The problem here is the Catholic Church, due to its size has more money, gets the loudest complaints.

I don't condone what the Church has done in not reporting, in the past, they now do in most areas, when a priest is suspected of pedophilia to the local authorities, nor do I condone how they just moved them from place to place to keep the person out of trouble in one area just to get in trouble in the new area. They should have been transferred to a Monastery for the remainder of their life of silence and prayer. Most of the cases, not all granted, of pedophilia that are being brought to light are over 15+ years old and new cases are few and far between. The Church is looking very closely at it's Religious Leaders and those in Religious life to make sure these things are not happening. So, the Church IS taking action, within itself, and any new current cases ARE being taken to the local authorities as they happen, provided they come to the Church from "outside" and not from confession. If the "news" comes from confessions, there are problems in taking action, other than repentance requirements, which CAN include demanding that the priest confessing take action to request life in a Monastery.

Pedophilia is a mental disease, and the Pope is right in that matter, and in such the pedophile should be treated and removed from the area in which he can cause harm. (Monastery)

 

[Ramirez]

Do you know how many people the ateist regimes of the USSR and China and otehr communist countries have killed? They were all motivated by ther ideology which iwas based on atheistic materialism. They make the Inquisition and Crusades look like child's play. At leas whe you know the actual history of those events.

please prove that atheism was the motivating factor in any of those regimes, that is the usual simplistic argument made by religionists to excuse the violent and predatory excesses of religion.

Show me how to motivate people from lack of belief...no one flies planes into buildings screaming "no god is great"

Look at all those oppressive regimes and you will find blind adherence to dogma and power concentrated in few individuals who make unopposed decisions for the masses.....sounds like religion to me.

 

[chrispillertkd]

please prove that atheism was the motivating factor in any of those regimes, ...

They are Marxists. Marxism rests on materialist atheism. I know it's hard to believe that some people are actually motivated by the ideology they profess and all...

Pax,

Chris

 

[Ramirez]

They are Marxists. Marxism rests on materialist atheism. I know it's hard to believe that some people are actually motivated by the ideology they profess and all...

Pax,

Chris

Well I guess your saying so makes it the truth.

 

[chrispillertkd]

But more serious, his popishnesh was talking about people actively pushing for true secularization of their country, meaning that the Church does not hold any special privileges or influence anymore. Apparently, the whole idea that criminals have to be brought before a court of law is too much to bear.

Uh, no.

Come on, people. I don't care if you disagree with the pope about anything, really. But please, please get your facts strait. I've alfready posted an excerpt o the pope's address at Holyrood that specifically details what he was referring to when he mentioned "atheist extremism." It goes way, way beyond people wanting "true secularism." To say otherwise is either dishonest or just being misinformed.

For the record, here i the quote again:

I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny”.

The context of his quote is Naziism. Unless you want to argue that the Nazis were just misunderstood secularists we can just stop this nonsense now.

I find the comments on this thread very intersting in light of what it says in the Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...Pope-puts-religion-back-in-the-spotlight.html).

Pope Benedict's critics have underestimated him. They worked themselves into a state of indignation at the visit of a man about whom they knew only a few things – and most of these turn out to be wrong, on closer inspection. Anyone who thinks that Joseph Ratzinger is a former Nazi, or that he actively conspired to protect child abusers, has not done his or her homework.

Pax,

Chris

PS
Is it too much to ask that people actually read the pope's addresses in order to see his statements in context before commenting on them?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well I guess your saying so makes it the truth.

What a sting rebuke! I've been impaled by your rapier-like retort!

Or not.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

From my taxes - it cost over £20M to pay for the security, accommodation and whatnot for for this visit. They (my government) agreed to treat it as a 'State' visit, so his Holiness didn't have to put his hand in his own pocket.

Have you ever heard of the Vatican City State? Benedict is the head of a state. His visit included meeting the head of your country.

Why they agreed to this I don't know and I certainly don't want this man or what he represents in my country; we have enough religious fundamentalists as it is without adding or encouraging more.

:lol: Benedict as a religious fundamentalist. Spoken like a person who has never once read aything he has written and relies on the press for their knowledge of him. Anyone who has read anyting this man has written since before he was created Cardinal to the current day could say he is a man of faith, an impressive intellectual. What they cannot say is that he is a fundamentalist. Unless you want to empty the word "fundamentalist" of any sort of actual meaning.

But seriously, Sukerkin, you're obviously well informed on matters. I'd be very interested in hearing which books of the pope's you've read wherein you find evidence of his "fundamentalism." Oh, heck, in all hoesty, I'm interested in hearing which books of his you've read, period. I mean making a comment like that means you've obviously read at lest something he's written. Right? In toto, of course, not an excerpted line or two in the local newspaper. Please direct me to the work(s) in question where you see this so I can read them.

Feel free to not include media statements or rants from people like Christopher Hitchens. I'm interested in your exposure to what Benedict has actually written himself.

Thanks in advance.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Ramirez]

What a sting rebuke! I've been impaled by your rapier-like retort!

Or not.

Pax,

Chris

yeah you concoct some term , say it is the basis of Marxism, ignore thousands of years of historical and social context and rationalize thousands of years of church condoned anti-semitism with respect to Hitler.

You aren't worth any more of my time.

 

[Omar B]

The necessity of an organization is debateable. What is needed is a belief taken to an exreme.

Do you know how many people the ateist regimes of the USSR and China and otehr communist countries have killed? They were all motivated by ther ideology which iwas based on atheistic materialism. They make the Inquisition and Crusades look like child's play. At leas whe you know the actual history of those events.

It most assuredly is not. If you had read the address he made you'd know that.

People have made the argument that the swastika is a "hooked cross" and indicative of the resurrection but I find that a bit of a stretch. I've seen images of "Christian swastikas" and the imagery used is generally different from that in a Buddhist, Hindu or Nazi swastika much like the supposed Jewish swastikas. In other words, it's a stylized abstraction of an already existing symbol.

Except his idea of a "pure Germanic" Christianity is, as I demonstrated, antithetical to actual Christianity.

What I demostrated was that Hitler was anti-Christian. Whether or not he became that way or was that way when he wrote Mein Kampf (since his presentation of Christainity in that work is debateable; was he talking about Christianity or about the Christianity that was "an invention of the Jew"? It's not as if he was ignorant of propeganda and what would motivate the people, after all.)

Bt the pont remains: Hitler was anti-Christian. Vehemently so, in fact. Ignoring that fact or minimizing it because he might have started out not diametrically opposed to it is simply to ignore facts.

The need for an organization is not debatable, it's necessary to have extremism. An organization with a large base you can call the "norm" or "control group" would be necessary to define what is out of the ordinary and extreme. Atheism is not a "belief" as you put it, it's a non belief. There's a huge gulf between believing in something and living your whole existence by it (religion) and not believing in something so it doesn't shade your existence at all.

Atheistic materialism? You gotta love those buzzwords! A non belief driving materialism? No, materialism is materialism. To argue that there is atheistic materialism them one must argue that there is christian materialism, buddhist materialism, etc. Yes you have named regimes led by atheists, but were their motivations a lack of belief or were their motivations for reasons of power? It's like saying "I don't believe in the easter bunny so I'm going to kill millions of people." Paper thin argument to say the least.

He still called it chrsitanity, he still spoke of god and the creator. Not because it doesn't fall within your particular sect does not mean it's not christianity. It's often an argument put forward by the religious when someone acts how they don't believe a christian should act, to claim the person was not a christian. Well he was, he himself wrote about it and spoke about it and his right to deem himself christian is just as valid as yours.

 

[Big Don]

From my taxes - it cost over £20M to pay for the security, accommodation and whatnot for for this visit. They (my government) agreed to treat it as a 'State' visit, so his Holiness didn't have to put his hand in his own pocket.

Why they agreed to this I don't know and I certainly don't want this man or what he represents in my country; we have enough religious fundamentalists as it is without adding or encouraging more.

What you are (intentionally?) overlooking, is the Pope, while being the head of the Roman Catholic Church is ALSO a Head of State.The Pope is ex officio head of state and head of government of Vatican City, functions dependent on his primordial function as bishop of the diocese of Rome. The term Holy See refers not to the Vatican state but to the Pope's spiritual and pastoral governance, largely exercised through the Roman Curia.His official title with regard to Vatican City is Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City.
Do you complain about the costs incurred when Putin or Obama or other heads of state visit?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Why they agreed to this I don't know and I certainly don't want this man or what he represents in my country; we have enough religious fundamentalists as it is without adding or encouraging more.

I'm Catholic, may I come visit? At my own expense of course. I was unaware that I was a religious fundamentalist, though. News to me.

 

[Omar B]

Just noticed that the Pope is having a prayer vigil with what looks like thousands of people in Hyde Park, oh I don't envy you guys with that traffic today! Talk about tieing up city resources, but it seems fun right. People out in the crush enjoying the park.

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...nds-due-for-pope-prayer-vigil-97319-27292105/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...a-guest-who-took-time-to-charm-his-hosts.html

 

[Cirdan]

I'm sure you're aware that Pope Benedict was forced to join the Hitler Youth, right? Sure you were since it's pretty well known that membership was mandatory for any German boy 14 years or older. I'm also sure you knew that Benedict refused to attend meetings, that his parents - especially his father - were opposed to the Nazis, and that the Nazis killed one of Benedict's cousins when he was 14 because he was "unfit" due to having Downs Syndrome (hardly an act that would endear one to the murderers of your family member).

How ham-handed of you. The fact that you made such a ridiculous assertion about Benedict doesn't exactly instill a lot of confidence that you know much about the scandal.

Pax,

Chris

I merely pointed out that he was in the hitlerjugend. The rest is your words.

And you certainly don`t need to lecture me on the methods of the nazis. My uncle who was a police officer was murdered by them for refusing to do their work during the occupation of Norway.

If anyone is ham handed it is the pope himself. He seems content to let the church continue to function as a pedo ring among other things.

THE scandal? This is like the 500th. Every time they just pray for the poor brother priest who has been tempted by the devil and by no fault of his own has succumbed to the irresistable magical disease, and everything is made ok.

Feel as confident as you wish, I don`t give a crap. I am actually glad this poor excuse for a human being is leading the church so we can see how flucked up their practices are.

PEACE!


Now prepare to experience the full power of the catholic church!

 

[Omar B]

Pope meets with victims, tells UK he's sorry



LONDON – Pope Benedict XVI met Saturday with five people who were molested by priests as children and apologized to them, even as abuse survivors and thousands of people opposed to his visit marched in central London in the biggest protest of his five-year papacy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100918/ap_on_re_eu/eu_pope_britain

Woah! Is it funny picture time?

 

[Ramirez]

Atheistic materialism? You gotta love those buzzwords! A non belief driving materialism? No, materialism is materialism..

Exactly, you want materialism, then look no further than the vaults and coffers of the catholic church, probably the most materialistic organization in history.

 

[Ramirez]

Comparisons of stalinist and maoist purges to the inquisition or the witch hunts or the crusades or whatever inevitably ignore the fact that the latter were all pre-industrial, given the technology of the Maoists and Stalinists , the Crusaders and Inquisitors could well have killed just as many people.

It is always a simple minded comparison.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I merely pointed out that he was in the hitlerjugend. The rest is your words.

No, the rest was rather clearly implied given the tenor of your post. If you want to pretend otherwise that's fine. But you're reacion is a bit like ... well ...

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gf8NK1WAOc[/yt]

And you certainly don`t need to lecture me on the methods of the nazis. My uncle who was a police officer was murdered by them for refusing to do their work during the occupation of Norway.

Then maybe you should remember that before you make moronic comments implying the pope was somehow affiliated with the Nazis anymore than any other German man his age. Unless, of course, you make reference to all German males of a particular age being former members of the Hitler Youth. Oh, I'm sure you do that

If anyone is ham handed it is the pope himself. He seems content to let the church continue to function as a pedo ring among other things.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to spend my time answring you as your posts make it obvious you don't have a good grasp of what's actually going on with regards to the scandal but I'll give it a go (to say noting of the lack of any interest on your part to actually find out what's been going on).

First of all, technically speaking, a very small minority of the incidences of sexual abuse actually qualify as pedaphilia. The majority of cases involve men abusing boys who were at least adolescents (78% of victims were 11-17 years old while 6% were less than 7 tears of age). Unimaginably horrible, but not pedaphelia. I know you'll appreciate the distinction because you're interested in facts, regardless of what they are.

Strangely, men having sex with adolescent boys (ephebophilia) is not listed as a mental disorder in the DSM-IV. Still horrible and obviously a crime but why the APA doesn't consider a specific mental disorder is a question I'd like to see addressed, wouldn't you?

Secondly, if you look at the incidence of the annual total of incidents of sexual abuse by priests and the annual totals of accused priests you willfind that both incidences begin to show serous decline in 1981, after increasing in number since 1950.

What happened in 1981? Well, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was appointed head of the CDF. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was one of the Church organs responsible for dealing with cases of sexual abuse by priests. In 2001 the process was streamlined and the CDF gained sole responsibility for dealing with such cases. By 1995, however, the rate of abuse was extremely low numbering about 50 per year (albeit any instance of abuse of a chil by any adult, clergy or not, is too many).

A graph of this information can be seen here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CVA-OCFOYuI/S8E-ZHHrLXI/AAAAAAAAACA/W6IImV2wGlQ/s1600/johnjayreport.jpg

That doesn't look like the pope being "ham handed" or "[seeming] content to let the church continue to function as a pedo ring among other things." At least it does't appear that way ifyou're interested in facts.

THE scandal? This is like the 500th. Every time they just pray for the poor brother priest who has been tempted by the devil and by no fault of his own has succumbed to the irresistable magical disease, and everything is made ok.

Wow, what a great example of you not exaggerating. Bill already mention the incidence rates of sexual abuse by Catholic priests but let's look at things a bit closer. (And yes, I use the tem "the scandal" to refer to the priestly sexual abuse problem as a whole, because it is a scandal.)

About 4% of the 110,000 priests operating from 1950 to 1992 had complaints against them (the actual number is 4,392 so a bit less than 4%, but nevermind). That is, obviously, a rate that is astronomically too high. For any group, wouldn't you say?

There is disagreement about the rate of sexual abusive behavior in the generalmale population of the U.S. but studies put it generally between 1 in 10 and 1 in 5. The most common thing sexual abusers have is a pre-existing relationship with their victim. This could be as a rabbi or minister, a techer or coach, or a family member.

So why do we hear so much about Catholic priests being sexual abusers? Probably for a couple of reasons. A single abuser who has a lot of exposure to children can have huge rates of abuse. 149 priests, for example, were responsible for more than 25,000 cases of abuse in the years between 1950 and 1992. The same rates could be possible for teachers or coaches, of course, who deal with childen on an even more frequent basis than priests. Or more. In fact, over the course of a single decade, 1991-2000 it's estimated that 290,000 children were sexually abused by school employees. That's in ten years, not 5 decades.

Interestingly, the NYT published a piece back in April which made an interesting point: "If the rate of abuse among Catholic priests stands (per the John Jay data) at roughly 4 percent, that’s less than half the rate that Allen cites for the population as a whole. And the Jay study covers the sweep of the last 50 years; if you compare the rate of accusations against priests now (as opposed to during (during the crisis of the 1960s and 1970s) to Allen’s 10 percent figure, it looks like Catholic clergy currently abuse children and teenagers at about one-fifth the rate of the male population as a whole." (see http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/09/does-celibacy-increase-sex-abuse/)

One fifth the rate of the general male population of the U.S.

Another reason is that the Church, in the person of the individual bishops, has a bad track record of punishing molesters when it has been determined that they are guilty of this crime.

Lastly, the sheer size of the Church makes it more likely that we will hear more about this problem in the Church than in any other religious body. While a slight majority of American adults are Protestant they belong not to a single denomination but a host of them, umbering in the hundreds if not more. It's a matter of numbers, at least partially.

(The figures I was quoting above can be found at:
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/04/07/mean-men.html and
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/5/01552.shtml)

Feel as confident as you wish, I don`t give a crap.

Oh, I'm pretty confident about you based on your posts in this thread. You've made things very obvious.

I am actually glad this poor excuse for a human being is leading the church so we can see how flucked up their practices are.

Every person is a sinner, including the pope, as Benedict would be the first to tell you. But again, your comment here indicates how serious you are about getting to the facts.

Any incidence of abuse of a child is a horrible crime and a sin. It should be punished under the law and any priest found guilty of such behavior should be removed from ministry permanently.

But I'd appreciate a bit of parity in the presentation of sexual abuse in the media and perhaps by members of this board. Where is the moral outrage about the astronimically high rate of sexual abuse of minors suffered at the hands of public school employees, for instance? Hmm.

Now prepare to experience the full power of the catholic church!

Can you imagine if people made a similar pictue of a rabbi or a Muslim cleric? You'd be labelled as the bigot you are.

You're not the first that has posted an image like this on MT, of course. But I'm still waiting for people to point out the inherent bigotry of doing so. Sure we can all agree that burning the Koran is bigoted, or that saying all Muslims are terrorists is bigoted (although I still don't know of anyone who does that), but pesent the pope as the evil Emporer? That's hunky dory! But I guess it's OK to be a bigot about some things. Right?

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

yeah you concoct some term , say it is the basis of Marxism, ignore thousands of years of historical and social context and rationalize thousands of years of church condoned anti-semitism with respect to Hitler.

It's hardly a term I "concocted." If you're not familiar with it that's not my fault. If you want to argue that materialism is a synonym for atheism that's fine by me. It doesn't do anything to refute my point. Communists were motivated by their ideology of historical materialism, which is explicitly atheistic, when they were killing millions of people.

You aren't worth any more of my time.

:lol: If you say so.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Comparisons of stalinist and maoist purges to the inquisition or the witch hunts or the crusades or whatever inevitably ignore the fact that the latter were all pre-industrial, given the technology of the Maoists and Stalinists , the Crusaders and Inquisitors could well have killed just as many people.

It is always a simple minded comparison.

:lol:

You're too funny, brother!

Pax,

Chris

 

[Cirdan]

Statistics? Techincalities? "Every person is a sinner?"

I am glad people like you call me a moron and a bigot.