The pope...

[Bruno@MT]

Every time I think he can't become more of an idiot, he goes ahead and does just that. I don't know it this made the international news or not, but recently there was a big investigation into the topic of pedophilia in the Catholic church in Belgium.

As it turns out, the reality is beyond awful. There was a lot of abuse, and a lot of cover up. People here are calling out for justice; mainly for the guilty ones to be expelled from the church, and for the church to take a firm stance against this sort of thing.

Instead, we've seen the following reactions from the pope, over the last couple of weeks
1) We don't need structural reformation or punishment. We need to focus on introspection and genuine repentance.
2) Secularization and atheism were also the goal of the Nazis (WTF?!)
3) Pedophilia is a disease that overrides free will, so the clergymen are not to blame for what they do.

Small wonder that the Belgian churches can't keep up with the requests for debaptism (they have increased about tenfold compared to 2009). The only silver lining is that this pope is old so he'll die soon enough. And hopefully the next pope is less of a scumbag.

 

[bribrius]

this is complicated. Becomes a issue of church vs. state in many instances. I do not believe the catholic church is purposely promoting pedophilia or whatever it is. That would just be sick.

I do think it has had some failings in its system which allowed, or allows things to happen that obviously shouldn't. And in no way would i of course support such things but i do feel the need to speak of the church, or churches in general in comparison with laws or governments and doctrine.

The church existed, and probably will exist, long before and after most current governments. A government is born, rule is established, it dies, a new one is born.

churches have been around a thousand years. So when someone speaks of the church failing to comply with legal, or governmental requirements it seems odd to me. since the churches existed before, will after, and basically live outside of most governments. why perhaps they dont even pay taxes for church land. It is almost like enforcing law on a indian reservation. That existed, before the law. Churches have never been innocent. Full of sinners i guess you could say. Remember that old saying about how religious people cant be better than no believers because if they didnt sin they wouldnt need to be in the church? If you think of the history of them, the wars, the corruption, let us never assume a church is innocent. Part of the reason is for the most part they are governed from within. Not your standard measure of checks and balances. And since they transcend many governments and establishments come and go the church has gained a lot of power, somewhat uncheckable. By design it will have problems within.

Now of course, if one were to believe in whatever church it may be. They have to follow their own doctrine. And where as one sins, one must also be forgiven. If the person repents, then the person must be absolved. At least as far as the church. This is the same whether your a shoplifter, adulterer, murderer, pedophile, or worship false idols. So the pope, just a guess here, is walking that line of trying to make sure they follow their own doctrine when dealing with this, while at the same time trying to appease the general population and keep the governments at bay.

It really is complicated..From a church perspective. Once a person has repented than are they not again in good favor with the church? Does the church not recognize everyone as a sinner equally? And if they are in good favor with the church, should the church still be required to follow the current rule of law of the land? The church after all has transcended governments, and is global. Now if it does begin to kick out these people, and allowed them all to be freely prosecuted. Has it followed its own doctrine and guidelines? I honestly dont know. Out of my field of expertise. Perhaps someone that is trained in theology could answer that. It does appear to be quite the dilemma.

i am happy i am not catholic.

 

[Big Don]

Every time I think he can't become more of an idiot, he goes ahead and does just that. I don't know it this made the international news or not, but recently there was a big investigation into the topic of pedophilia in the Catholic church in Belgium.

As it turns out, the reality is beyond awful. There was a lot of abuse, and a lot of cover up. People here are calling out for justice; mainly for the guilty ones to be expelled from the church, and for the church to take a firm stance against this sort of thing.

Instead, we've seen the following reactions from the pope, over the last couple of weeks
1) We don't need structural reformation or punishment. We need to focus on introspection and genuine repentance.

Fully and completely inline with the Christian Ideal of forgiveness of sin.

2) Secularization and atheism were also the goal of the Nazis (WTF?!)

To be fair, both were goals of the communists also

3) Pedophilia is a disease that overrides free will, so the clergymen are not to blame for what they do.

Yeah, which is another reason why having EVERYTHING be a disease is stupid...

Small wonder that the Belgian churches can't keep up with the requests for debaptism

Uh, could you explain why churches would be involved in that?

 

[Bruno@MT]

which is another reason why having EVERYTHING be a disease is stupid...Uh, could you explain why churches would be involved in that?

Well, you can stop practicing Catholicism (not attending mass, not following church doctrine, ...) but technically, that doesn't make you any less of a Catholic because you are still baptized, and thus still recognized by the church as one of them. And technically, by being baptized, you recognize this yourself as well.

However, you can get formally de-baptized. This is a small ceremony that can be performed by a priest (hence the need for the church to be involved). It might seem a superfluous thing for an outsider. But this is like publicly tearing up your political party member card. It sends a message to the party / church leadership that you disagree with their course of action, and basically tell them to stuff it. This is one way to make them take notice, and the church does take this seriously, just like a political party would when they get a wave of people tearing up their membership cards.

 

[Bruno@MT]

It really is complicated..From a church perspective. Once a person has repented than are they not again in good favor with the church? Does the church not recognize everyone as a sinner equally? And if they are in good favor with the church, should the church still be required to follow the current rule of law of the land? The church after all has transcended governments, and is global. Now if it does begin to kick out these people, and allowed them all to be freely prosecuted. Has it followed its own doctrine and guidelines? I honestly dont know. Out of my field of expertise. Perhaps someone that is trained in theology could answer that. It does appear to be quite the dilemma.

i am happy i am not catholic.

In any secular state, the answer is yes because the church is not recognized as an authority that supersedes the laws of the land. Failing to do so opens up the church for prosecution of anyone complicit in the acts themselves or the cover-up thereof.

The church is free to deal with this issue in the realm where they hold authority. It is their choice to excommunicate or not, or to choose a penance. But that is in parallel with the legal proceedings of the laws of the land.

 

[Archangel M]

The Church preaching forgiveness and not wanting to "cut of heads"??

Terrible.

 

[seasoned]

The Church preaching forgiveness and not wanting to "cut of heads"??

Terrible.

Thats one heck of a penance. 5 hail Mary's and 5 our Father's sounds much better.

 

[Bruno@MT]

The Church preaching forgiveness and not wanting to "cut of heads"??

Terrible.

Well, I could understand them willing to forgive. Not my problem. But hiding the problem from the law makes it conspiracy to commit pedophilia.

But even ignoring that, the biggest sin of all (not counting the actual abuse) is the fact that the church hierarchy then just placed the offending priests in another parish where they would not be suspected, and trusted with authority over young kids again. And again. And again...

So on one hand, the pope now says that it is a disease and the poor clergymen cannot help themselves, and on the other they have to admit that they knowingly placed those priests / bishops in positions where they had the chance to sin again.

Sorry, but that doesn't fly imo.
Even if they didn't want to report the offenders to the police, a more appropriate penance would have been to make them live secluded in prayer in an isolated monastery for the rest of their life. It would have fit with church doctrine AND have worked to protect the children.

 

[seasoned]

Well, I could understand them willing to forgive. Not my problem. But hiding the problem from the law makes it conspiracy to commit pedophilia.

But even ignoring that, the biggest sin of all (not counting the actual abuse) is the fact that the church hierarchy then just placed the offending priests in another parish where they would not be suspected, and trusted with authority over young kids again. And again. And again...

So on one hand, the pope now says that it is a disease and the poor clergymen cannot help themselves, and on the other they have to admit that they knowingly placed those priests / bishops in positions where they had the chance to sin again.

Sorry, but that doesn't fly imo.
Even if they didn't want to report the offenders to the police, a more appropriate penance would have been to make them live secluded in prayer in an isolated monastery for the rest of their life. It would have fit with church doctrine AND have worked to protect the children.

On a very serious note, this would be my vote for sure.

 

[Cirdan]

"And thus I clothe my naked villainy
With old odd ends, stol'n forth of holy writ;
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

The most holy former hitlerjugend can flap his mouth about repentance, nazis and magic diseases all he want. The continued policy of sweeping cases of child abuse under the carpet is nothing short of a crime against humanity.

 

[xJOHNx]

So on one hand, the pope now says that it is a disease and the poor clergymen cannot help themselves, and on the other they have to admit that they knowingly placed those priests / bishops in positions where they had the chance to sin again.

If it really is a disease, the priests involved would not go to incredible length's to cover it up. Let alone cover up for eachother.
Funny how people under the vow of celibacy suffer the most from this disease, and people who have normal sexual relationships suffer less from it.

 

[Omar B]

I always love when the religious blame atheists for Nazis. Point 24 of the Nazi Twenty five Points is -

"24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest."

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. The great masses of a nation are not composed of philosophers. For the masses of the people, especially faith is absolutely the only basis of a moral outlook on life. The various substitutes that have been offered have not shown any results that might warrant us in thinking that they might usefully replace the existing denominations. ...There may be a few hundreds of thousands of superior men who can live wisely and intelligently without depending on the general standards that prevail in everyday life, but the millions of others cannot do so.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

By helping to lift the human being above the level of mere animal existence, Faith really contributes to consolidate and safeguard its own existence. Taking humanity as it exists to-day and taking into consideration the fact that the religious beliefs which it generally holds and which have been consolidated through our education, so that they serve as moral standards in practical life, if we should now abolish religious teaching and not replace it by anything of equal value the result would be that the foundations of human existence would be seriously shaken.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 Chapter 1

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10

May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 24, 1933

We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland.
- Adolf Hitler, Prayer, May 1, 1933

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then Church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the Church as much as of Fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.
- Adolf Hitler in conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Bavaria, November 4, 1936

Or maybe a christian could read "The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945," by Richard Steigmann-Gall. Great book. Personally I never got where this conception that the Nazis were atheists (I guess they wished to base one war on us atheists) when they clearly were christians and wanted to keep the fatherland pure of other religions.

 

[Empty Hands]

Personally I never got where this conception that the Nazis were atheists (I guess they wished to base one war on us atheists) when they clearly were christians and wanted to keep the fatherland pure of other religions.

Nazis are bad, and atheists are bad, and thus by the transitive property of wingnuttiness, Nazis are atheists.

 

[Empty Hands]

churches have been around a thousand years. So when someone speaks of the church failing to comply with legal, or governmental requirements it seems odd to me. since the churches existed before, will after, and basically live outside of most governments.

They do not live outside "most governments." Every church in existence that I am aware of is subject to governmental authority. They exist in the same country, they live by the same laws. This formulation also implies the absurdity that the older a church is, the less law they have to obey. So the Scientologists must obey all laws, the Mormons get to ignore speeding tickets, and the Catholics get to rape children?

It is almost like enforcing law on a indian reservation. That existed, before the law.

Er, no. Indian reservations were created by the US government on terrible land that no one wanted so they would have a place to put Indian tribes who were occupying land that whites wanted. AFAIK, most tribal reservations are not the ancestral land.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Funny how people under the vow of celibacy suffer the most from this disease, and people who have normal sexual relationships suffer less from it.

Google 'karate instructor arrested' and say that again.

Or for that matter, take a look at Google News archives for athletic coaches, teachers, ministers of other religions, and so on. I once did a bit of Google arithmetic dealing with the number of news articles about Anglican ministers arrested for sex offenses versus Catholics priests and divided by the numbers of each to come with a percentage of news story per clergy; it turned out that Anglicans had more percentage-wise. And they're not celibate.

So perhaps celibacy has less to do with this evil than the fact that such people are attracted to jobs where they are in contact with youths and given positions of trust.

 

[Empty Hands]

This behavior by the Church is pretty much the exact behavior you see in all entrenched institutions when confronted with their own wrongdoing. That doesn't make the Church worse than all other institutions, but it certainly doesn't make them a guiding moral light.

Of course, this Pope is particularly maladroit at public relations. Perhaps because he has always previously wielded power inside the institution without a need to interact with the public at large.

 

[Omar B]

Nazis are bad, and atheists are bad, and thus by the transitive property of wingnuttiness, Nazis are atheists.

Yeah, but how are atheists bad? By conception of religious sin? By law? I'm quite ethical and I've never practiced institutionalized bigotry towards anyone in regards to race, creed, sexuality or any other thing. I always find it funny listening to conservative talk shows because I am at heart conservative on most issues how there's always a couple of callers every day that bring up atheists in the same breath of Islam or illegal immigrants as the contributing factor to some malady.

 

[Empty Hands]

Yeah, but how are atheists bad? By conception of religious sin? By law? I'm quite ethical and I've never practiced institutionalized bigotry towards anyone in regards to race, creed, sexuality or any other thing. I always find it funny listening to conservative talk shows because I am at heart conservative on most issues how there's always a couple of callers every day that bring up atheists in the same breath of Islam or illegal immigrants as the contributing factor to some malady.

Rightwing extremists need an "enemy", an "other" who they can demonize and organize against. "Liberals", "elitists", "college professors", "union organizers", all take their turn at various times. It doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. Of course, members of the Enemy who are useful get a pass - Karl Rove is an open atheist, and the right haven't denounced him.

A large organizing principle on the right is social conservatism, which is mostly religiously organized. Anyone who fundamentally disagrees with that premise is a threat, thus "atheists" are evil people who are cruelly oppressing conservative Christians, nevermind that atheists of any kind are a small minority. Others get it too though that challenge that premise, like liberal Christians or members of other religions. There is quite a bit of consternation in fundamentalist circles right now over the prominence of Glenn Beck and his religious message because Beck is a Mormon.

At the end of the day the most important thing to remember is that for most people, deeply held ideologies are a matter of emotion, not logic. Thus how that ideology is constructed, inherent contradictions (like millionaire Republicans denouncing "elitists"), logical consistency and similar factors are never going to matter. The ideology is all emotional.

 

[crushing]

Wouldn't it be nice if such wingnuttiness only came from the right? I think the further out there some of the wingnuts get, the less they see that their "team" engages in the very same behaviors.

The "Rally to Restore Sanity" is long overdue. But, with many of the insane being so focused on the people with which they vehemently disagree, they may not realize they are the target. Which makes the whole Jon Stewart thing even better. They will do their best to keep fear of those nasty, god fearin', gun clingin', wingnuts alive.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Rightwing extremists need an "enemy", an "other" who they can demonize and organize against.

Let's just say 'extremists' and I'll agree with you. I believe that particular sword cuts both ways.

A large organizing principle on the right is social conservatism, which is mostly religiously organized.

Fiscal conservatism tends to define what is known as 'the right' in the USA. Social conservatism tends to define the 'far right'. IMHO.

Interestingly, the Catholic Church is very much an institution that would be seen as 'right wing', but Catholics in the USA have traditionally been identified with the DNC, only siding with right-wingers on hot-button issues such as abortion.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0606&article=060610

At a meeting of Catholic pundits in New York, National Review columnist Kate O’Beirne told the story of two old friends, Pat and Mike. When Pat told Mike that he heard that Sean O’Connor, a friend of theirs, had voted Republican, Mike responded with outrage. “That’s a dirty lie!” he said. “I saw him at Mass.”

Anyone who fundamentally disagrees with that premise is a threat, thus "atheists" are evil people who are cruelly oppressing conservative Christians, nevermind that atheists of any kind are a small minority. Others get it too though that challenge that premise, like liberal Christians or members of other religions. There is quite a bit of consternation in fundamentalist circles right now over the prominence of Glenn Beck and his religious message because Beck is a Mormon.

The Mormons have been making common cause with the Catholics and other anti-abortion groups for some time now. Most don't have a problem with it, although no one really seems to really want to peel back the layers of the onion on what it is that Mormons believe vis-a-vis traditional Christianity.

At the end of the day the most important thing to remember is that for most people, deeply held ideologies are a matter of emotion, not logic. Thus how that ideology is constructed, inherent contradictions (like millionaire Republicans denouncing "elitists"), logical consistency and similar factors are never going to matter. The ideology is all emotional.

Immediately after 9/11, I seem to recall some white-supremacist groups, often the rightest of the right in terms of ultra-extremist conservatives, were seen making overtures to radical Islamists, under the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' theory with regard to the Islamists' views of Jews. That apparently was a non-starter.

But it does tend to show that politics is based on common interests and niggling details such as one's religious beliefs are somewhat less important when it comes right down to forming coalitions.