The point of testing students

[Danny T]

I've seen this used three ways:

1. As you describe - the test is a formality.
2. As I use it - the test is a chance to look for anything I missed.
3. As a chance to see them perform under stress and/or to create some struggle, one more thing for them to achieve (the latter not really being a martial purpose, but a development purpose).

I think that's actually 4 - #3 should probably be split.

If performing under stress is a requirement or something you are making a judgement on have you not already seen them under stress? I agree stress is an important factor and as I've state already, I am testing my students all the time and other than those just beginning they know it.
Every time I pull someone out to work with them, ask questions, have them show or demonstrate a technique then demonstrate and explain 3 different possible applications for that technique and 3 different counter and re-counters they are being tested. Now I want to see it done in sparring with different set ups.

 

[Danny T]

If the instructor sees that the student is ready.

Particularly 3

If you haven't seen the student perform under stress as yet then you haven't seen the student is ready have you?

 

[Flying Crane]

So I take it your school doesn't use a ranking system, not all schools and not all styles do.

Yup.

 

[Danny T]

Yup.

But there is a methodology I'm certain that the instructor/s utilize to know the training & learning is proper and the student is progressing even though there is no rank or formalized testing. There is a standard that a student must reach or attain before giving them more information or for the lack of better terms higher level information, yes?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If performing under stress is a requirement or something you are making a judgement on have you not already seen them under stress? I agree stress is an important factor and as I've state already, I am testing my students all the time and other than those just beginning they know it.
Every time I pull someone out to work with them, ask questions, have them show or demonstrate a technique then demonstrate and explain 3 different possible applications for that technique and 3 different counter and re-counters they are being tested. Now I want to see it done in sparring with different set ups.

The stress I'm referring to is the stress of being tested, of being under obvious scrutiny and singled out. There's some value in students learning to overcome and perform under that stress. The stress of standard performance (in the dojo, someone trying to punch them, for instance), yes that should already have been examined.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you haven't seen the student perform under stress as yet then you haven't seen the student is ready have you?

If that's something you're testing for (using a test format that induces that performance stress), I don't know how many instructors "mini-test" for that along the way. I can think of some ways to see at least some of the student's reaction.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If you haven't seen the student perform under stress as yet then you haven't seen the student is ready have you?

That's the point of the test, to see the student perform under stress.

 

[Danny T]

That's the point of the test, to see the student perform under stress.

So you are saying the instructor really does not know it the student is ready. That is why I asked you what does ready mean.
When it comes to testing under me, I know my student will pass because they have already done so. They have done so within the training, under pressure and stress, under several different scenarios with several persons and in sparring. When in a formal test the test isn't for me. It is for the student it is a confirmation to they not me, if they had not already passed the test they wouldn't be up for the formality of the test. Others do differently. I simple asked what does 'ready' mean?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you are saying the instructor really does not know it the student is ready. That is why I asked you what does ready mean.
When it comes to testing under me, I know my student will pass because they have already done so. They have done so within the training, under pressure and stress, under several different scenarios with several persons and in sparring. When in a formal test the test isn't for me. It is for the student it is a confirmation to they not me, if they had not already passed the test they wouldn't be up for the formality of the test. Others do differently. I simple asked what does 'ready' mean?

To me, "ready" means "almost certain to pass".

 

[jobo]

I'm getting a bit lost here, you can't recreate the stress of someone say, trying to cave your head in with a club, by making people perform a dance in front of a few dozen people and a few judges. Ones a bit of stage fright, the other is life and death. Some people of course love to be centre of attention and show off, they won't even get the stage fright.

others will be cripes by it, but be more than able to calmly take the bat of an attacker,

if the stress caused by the exam has no carry over to ma in the real world, why even bother trying to measure performance against it ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm getting a bit lost here, you can't recreate the stress of someone say, trying to cave your head in with a club, by making people perform a dance in front of a few dozen people and a few judges. Ones a bit of stage fright, the other is life and death. Some people of course love to be centre of attention and show off, they won't even get the stage fright.

others will be cripes by it, but be more than able to calmly take the bat of an attacker,

if the stress caused by the exam has no carry over to ma in the real world, why even bother trying to measure performance against it ?

As I mentioned earlier, that stress is not (IMO) about preparing them for combat, but about preparing them for other challenges in life. It's something to overcome or deal with (for those who experience it in any quantity).

The only time I see it as directly relevant to MA is when they are nearing "instructor" level. For many, being a student in a test is nothing compared to the stress of the first time you have a bunch of students staring at you, and some are good enough to spot if you do something wrong.

 

[jobo]

As I mentioned earlier, that stress is not (IMO) about preparing them for combat, but about preparing them for other challenges in life. It's something to overcome or deal with (for those who experience it in any quantity).

The only time I see it as directly relevant to MA is when they are nearing "instructor" level. For many, being a student in a test is nothing compared to the stress of the first time you have a bunch of students staring at you, and some are good enough to spot if you do something wrong.

it wasn't really you i was aiming my question at, we sort of agreed a few posts back, rather the others suggesting that testing under a pressure is " pressure testing" of the techniques.

there is certainly a pressure not to make a fool of yourself, that's if you actually care, but no pressure on the techneque, unless it in corporate someone try to hit you, or similar

 

[jobo]

it wasn't really you i was aiming my question at, we sort of agreed a few posts back, rather the others suggesting that testing under a pressure is " pressure testing" of the techniques.

there is certainly a pressure not to make a fool of yourself, that's if you actually care, but no pressure on the techneque, unless it in corporate someone try to hit you, or similar

what might spice it up was if the crowd all had apple they could throw at you during the test and you lose marks if any hit you

 

[Mark Lynn]

Some martial arts schools don't test students, rather they simply promote the student when the student is ready. The student might put on a demonstration with the purpose of showing off what they've learned and so forth but unless their performance affects the outcome, another words, unless there's the possibility of failing and not being promoted as well as the possibility of passing and being promoted than its not a test. Its a demonstration, plain and simple. Now, Im not saying such methods are wrong or bad but there are some schools that require a student to pass a test in order to be promoted. Their performance during the test determines whether they get promoted or not. Now, some might ask what's the point of having a test that the instructor should know if the student is ready or not to promote without having to test the student. Well, the point of testing the student is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you're taking a test and the outcome depends on how well you do there is a certain amount of psychological pressure that you have to deal with. So that's why some schools use tests.

It depends upon the school and really the chief instructor (owner or head of the school); if the school belongs to a bigger organization, the martial history of (traditions held within) the school, the business practices of the school (business models), all of these can help determine how the tests are done and what the purpose is for. What some might see as bad according to their school's belief system might be great for another school; what some people see as abuse others see as necessary for a tough fighter, what some people see as sound business practices such as testing on a timed schedule and increasing belt fees (as a way to help fund the school), others tend to test students when they are ready and have set (that never rise) no test fees. It all can be good.

As a member of a larger organization made up of of largely like minded independent karate/TKD schools we have flexibility in how we do things. As my program has grown (still small by many standards) I have the ability to promote my students using my curriculum that is similar in many ways (such as kata, basics, etc. etc.) to the parent organization but it is different to reflect my martial arts studies outside of my primary art of TKD.

When I test my students it is in small tests made up of different ranks and sometimes the same rank. My program is mostly kids so I grade them differently than young adults and adults. For instance many times I will hold a student back if they are failing to do something like I had one student who stayed at a intermediate rank for 9 months (he was ready for the next rank in May) however he wouldn't correct his stances, and his kata performance was off (because his stances sucked etc. etc). He knew the material, he could spar, kick high, etc. etc. but he wouldn't correct his stances and basics, he missed the test date and had to wait until August (the next test). He finally shaped up and corrected things right before the exam, which I knew he could do so I approved him to test. But I have another little girl who is extremely sensitive and tender hearted, for her her struggles are different from the boy being rebellious (in a sense). It took her many months to get through her beginner level to be able to test for Green, in fact her brother tested at the same time for the same rank (he held himself back for her) and to look at both of them testing together for the same rank you would have thought I went to soft on her, but she hard the harder hill to climb and her brother is probably the rank above her skill wise. I tell my students that if they give up they fail, but they have have earned the right to test and that they all can pass otherwise they wouldn't be standing in front of everyone.

So during the exams I throw them curve balls to put them under pressure, but unless they are going to give up (and fail) they will pass the exam. I've had students throw up and get sick from stress during the test, others black out on kata, others get a hard hit during sparring etc. etc., many times running the exam I don't hear about it until afterwards. But all of these students had to face individual challenges not to give up on the test even though I pretty much guaranteed them their next rank as long as they didn't give up. I believe the student earns the rank in class. I believe it is important for the student to be "tested" in front of others, family and friends, and it isn't just a demonstration, but it is also an approval process. That higher authorities (instructors) approved of me (the student) in front of my peers (class mates), my parents and friends.

its much the same in school? What's best? An exam that shows a student can preform on the day under pressure, or course work that shows a level of consistent excellence over a longer period. Which of those is the fairest test and which gives the most accurate assessment of ability?.

i think continuous assessment is fairest and best, but personally I'm lazy but good at performing under pressure, so i do best at exams, i just use to copy other peoples course work, but you can't cheat at ma assessments unless you have,a twin

Jobo
I'm the exact opposite I do horrible at tests, and knowing this I think that continuous assessment is best as well. My last test in 2011 for kobudo was my worst, it was for my 1st degree in kobudo. It was also my first exam where I believed and accepted the fact that I failed and was prepared to face the embarrassment of being the 2nd highest rank (6th dan) on the floor failing a test that students of much lower rank than I (brown belts) were going to pass. During the exam I blacked out on a kata (completely), I dropped my tonfa during a kata or rather it came flying out of my hand (due to carpal tunnel issues), but I still didn't give up. I came out strong for all of my one steps etc. etc. My first exam for Orange belt 30 yrs prior to that exam was just as bad with me doing all the blocks to the wrong names (it was in Korean). Back then I still had to not give in to the shame and embarrassment of being the screw up on the floor. My instructor then (in 1981) recognized what was happening and told us testing, that we earned our rank on the floor during class, that the exam was a formality. My same instructor in 2011 explained to the class in so many words the similar points, when I screwed up that test.

Leading up to the exam I was teaching my own students this same (kobudo) material, along with working out with others outside of normal classes (the monthly kobudo class and my regular classes) and basically had a better understanding of the material because of my training than probably everyone else on the floor testing. Which the chief instructors acknowledged by passing me, they knew me, they knew I had a bad day.

I share this because 36 years ago had my instructor made me feel like I was a screw up in front of everyone as we tested and failed me, I probably would have dropped out, but he didn't, he used my screw ups on a test to teach me (and those there that listened) a very important lesson. I needed the martial arts because it helped me way beyond just getting and advancing in rank. Now I'm the one who is guiding my students and taking on that responsibility.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

what might spice it up was if the crowd all had apple they could throw at you during the test and you lose marks if any hit you

Don't give people any ideas, Jobo. That's just funny enough to be worth doing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So during the exams I throw them curve balls to put them under pressure, but unless they are going to give up (and fail) they will pass the exam. I've had students throw up and get sick from stress during the test, others black out on kata, others get a hard hit during sparring etc. etc., many times running the exam I don't hear about it until afterwards. But all of these students had to face individual challenges not to give up on the test even though I pretty much guaranteed them their next rank as long as they didn't give up. I believe the student earns the rank in class. I believe it is important for the student to be "tested" in front of others, family and friends, and it isn't just a demonstration, but it is also an approval process. That higher authorities (instructors) approved of me (the student) in front of my peers (class mates), my parents and friends.

I haven't gotten to the point where I throw curve balls during a test yet, but likely will as students progress. My own instructor had a policy for black belt tests that something had to be corrected on the spot. He'd pick something that was arguably wrong, and make you correct it before you could go to the next technique. The point was to put you under some stress, and to see if you could make a correction on the spot (something he feels is important for that rank/level).

I've thought about the idea of testing in front of a group. We never did it. Most tests were just the testee, the instructor (maybe an instructor-in-training, too), and a partner for the parts that required a partner. The scenario tests included all the students of a specified rank, but the doors were closed to everyone else - both students and observers. I like the idea of putting at least some of that in front of a group, though that only works when a group is available. Do you often have non-student observers for adult tests?

 

[PhotonGuy]

So you are saying the instructor really does not know it the student is ready. That is why I asked you what does ready mean.
When it comes to testing under me, I know my student will pass because they have already done so. They have done so within the training, under pressure and stress, under several different scenarios with several persons and in sparring. When in a formal test the test isn't for me. It is for the student it is a confirmation to they not me, if they had not already passed the test they wouldn't be up for the formality of the test. Others do differently. I simple asked what does 'ready' mean?

Some students might appear ready, they might have the techniques down, they might have good adequate skill, but then when they take the test they fail. Why? Because they froze up during the test or they let their nerves get the better of them and so they didn't perform up to par. So some instructors might see that a student is ready in terms of knowledge, skill, and technique but the student might still not be ready in terms of being able to function under the pressure of a test. So how do you find out if the student is ready to function under such pressure? By the student taking the test.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The only time I see it as directly relevant to MA is when they are nearing "instructor" level. For many, being a student in a test is nothing compared to the stress of the first time you have a bunch of students staring at you, and some are good enough to spot if you do something wrong.

That's why you start out as an assistant instructor. And as an assistant instructor you will mostly be teaching students who are beginners, students who are white belts and maybe students who are a belt or a few belts higher.

 

[jobo]

Some students might appear ready, they might have the techniques down, they might have good adequate skill, but then when they take the test they fail. Why? Because they froze up during the test or they let their nerves get the better of them and so they didn't perform up to par. So some instructors might see that a student is ready in terms of knowledge, skill, and technique but the student might still not be ready in terms of being able to function under the pressure of a test. So how do you find out if the student is ready to function under such pressure? By the student taking the test.

but that would just be stage fright, the justification for having a test seems to that the,student may fail, for,a reason that has nothing to do with their ma,ability, that's just odd!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's why you start out as an assistant instructor. And as an assistant instructor you will mostly be teaching students who are beginners, students who are white belts and maybe students who are a belt or a few belts higher.

Agreed, except for the ranks. As a student instructor, I was expected to be able to teach any of the techniques, so I could have students of any rank, under the supervision of the chief instructor of the school. As an associate instructor (I'm not sure which you would equate to "assistant instructor"), I had to run classes without backup (so, no chief instructor present). There's an extra stress that first time you are in front of a class with no backup. It gets easier pretty quickly for some folks, more slowly for others. I think I had it easier than most, because of some experience outside MA.