The Kihon Happo

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kalamazoo Ninja, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Kalamazoo Ninja

    Kalamazoo Ninja Yellow Belt

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    The Kihon Happo...the eight basic moves every Ninja needs to know in order to advance. I was wondering if we might open a discussion on these moves and throw some advice out there for us beginning students of the art. These are the ones I know...

    Omote Gyaku - outside wrist lock
    Musha Dori - arm lock Shoulder rip
    Muso Dori - arm lock Elbow crusher
    Gansaki Nagi - arm lock to shoulder throw

    I was wondering the other 4. I know that there are a few based on the Ichimonji Jumonji and Hicho kamae or am I mistaken?
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Okay, you got some wrong already...

    But honestly, talk to your instructor. That's not just because they should be guiding you through it, but because it is taught differently by different teachers. So what one teacher shows isn't necessarily what you're getting shown.
     
  3. Kalamazoo Ninja

    Kalamazoo Ninja Yellow Belt

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    Hmmm. But fundamentally the moves should be the same shouldn't they? Minus the little details I'm more focused on learning the Japanese if anyone could post the Kihon Happo with the Japanese to English?

    Also yes I do have a Sensei to ask but as some may know Sensei's are very busy most of the time so that's why we have this forum!
     
  4. Kurai

    Kurai Green Belt

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    Chris has already answered this. Ask your sensei. It's core fundamentals you're inquiring about. If your sensei is so busy they can't answer questions about core fundamentals, and I were you, I'd be seeking a new sensei.
     
  5. Kalamazoo Ninja

    Kalamazoo Ninja Yellow Belt

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    Ok not to be sassy or anything but this a Ninjutsu forum and this is a Ninjutsu question. I will ask my Sensei but I expect better feedback from the experts here
     
  6. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    There are some things you simply have to be taught by your instructor. Chris Parker mentioned that some instructors teach the Kihon Happo in different ways, so were he to post his way up, it might be a hindrance rather than a help. Other than that -- maybe there are reasons why your instructor hasn't taught you more of it yet. You may not have some important underlying piece or you may need to understand the sets you've been taught better before you learn more. I don't teach ninjutsu -- but there are often reasons why I teach or don't teach students something. In those cases, the last thing I want is them to go online and find someone to tell them before I do... I'm the guy training them regularly, and who knows what they're ready for. It sounds arrogant -- but that's part of being the teacher.
     
  7. Kalamazoo Ninja

    Kalamazoo Ninja Yellow Belt

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    I've learned the Kihon Happo physically...I've done the moves in class. I'm simply looking to connect the dots between the Japanese words and techniques. Common experts help me out. Its just a fill-in-the-blank question you guys.
     
  8. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    (emphasis mine)
    Notice, that's not what you asked. You claimed to know 4, and your post suggested a vague idea about the others. Kind of like if you asked us to tell you the alphabet, saying "I know abc, and I think there's a d and maybe something like q in there; can you tell me the rest?"

    Let me offer a suggestion, having viewed most of your posts. Take a few seconds before you hit send, and make sure that the post actually says what you mean it to.
     
  9. Kalamazoo Ninja

    Kalamazoo Ninja Yellow Belt

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    OK...Beuller? ...Bueller? I've yet to get anyone to contribute anything usefull about the Kihon Happo. Stop critizing me and contribute to the thread. This type of thread can be a usefull tool for students if we get good feedback.
     
  10. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    People do have lives and jobs and other things than sitting here, monitoring to answer your questions. Only reason I'm on right now is that I'm home sick... Some folks even live in other countries, and are several hours separated. Check back tomorrow; you may have answers.
     
  11. Kalamazoo Ninja

    Kalamazoo Ninja Yellow Belt

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  12. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Son, learning off you-tube is pointless. Don't look to it for anything definite.

    But, to get to why you need to use your teacher as your primary (and, I'd suggest, only) reference in this, your list included Muso Dori and Ganseki Nage... most teach those as variations of each other, so won't include both. You missed Omote Gyaku Tsuki, you missed Ura Gyaku, some include Oni Kudaki, others don't, some have Musha Dori, the Jinenkan swap the names for Musha Dori and Muso Dori around, there are different forms of Ichimonji, Hicho, and Jumonji taught (depending on organization and teacher), the exact way of doing any of the kata change, and more. In essence, it's three striking techniques, and five torite techniques, but bluntly, talk to your instructor. If they haven't shown you them (and, again, some Bujinkan instructors don't see any real value in it, so don't teach or focus on it... it's not really a focus in the Genbukan, for instance, at least not the the degree of the Bujinkan), ask them why. If they have, and you have questions about them, ask them! We're not your teacher, and there are very real reasons we're not about to post what the kata are, or how they're done (besides the fact that it probably won't match what you've seen). Hell, there's debate as to where the kata even come from, let alone what they are, so there is no definitive, single form. Okay?

    EDIT: Okay, watched the video... don't follow what is shown there. That's not the Kihon Happo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
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  13. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Is this where you study or is it somewhere else?
    http://wmbudokan.com/Bujinkan.html

    Knowing what lineage/type of ninjutsu you are studying can help people give you more help.
     
  14. Kalamazoo Ninja

    Kalamazoo Ninja Yellow Belt

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    Yes that is my dojo!
    Thank you Chris for that response that definitely helps me grab some perspective on the moves more. Let's keep that good info coming! Now my question is...why do the moves differ from dojo to dojo? Shouldn't instructors only teach what Hatsumi Sensei has designated as the way?
     
  15. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I visited there and observed a ninjutsu class. Seemed like a great group of people, but it wasn't what I was looking for personally. Hope you enjoy your journey there.
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Well, for one thing, the Jinenkan and the Genbukan don't follow Hatsumi, so no, they'd have no reason to. But, more importantly, Hatsumi changes what he shows each time... so what is the way he has designated as "the way"? In short, there isn't one. There is no quality control in the Bujinkan, as each dojo is basically left up to itself to decide what they want to do, so what one dojo teaches is really more up to the instructor in question, rather than necessarily anything Hatsumi shows. So, when it comes to your personal study of Kihon Happo (and, well, everything else), you really do need to look to what your teacher shows you. Which, I believe, is what I said right at the beginning.
     
  17. gapjumper

    gapjumper Yellow Belt

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  18. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    I'm not even able to view the video; what does it show?

    As has been already stated, the kihon happo are different for each school. Some take out one kata and use its variations and others don't. For example the ninpo kihon happo in aiki ninjutsu are ichimonji no kata, jumonji no kata, hicho no kata, musha dori, ganseki nage, omote gyakku dori, omote gyakku tsuki, and ura gyakku. We also include te makura, ura and omote oni kudake, hon gyakku, and a bunch of variations of ganseki as required to know henka for testing purposes although we don't include them in the official listing.

    I can probably be safe telling you that our version of ganseki nage, jumonji no kata, and hicho no kata are probably different from what you do based on the specific principles we want our students to get out of them. I can tell you what our organization get out of the kihon happo, but I don't see how that would help you.
     
  19. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    I'll let you judge that....



    (If you click on the "Desktop" option at the top of the original link, it takes you to the clip. The OP was linking from a mobile device, and it didn't transfer properly).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  20. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    Well, at least that's not the worst version of those techniques I've seen.
     

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