The Hipocritcal Standard of Harassment

Discussion in 'The Study' started by MA-Caver, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have never argued that everything 'isn't my fault' and yes I do say things straight, it does no good to pussyfoot around somethings. I have got my 'poster's' correct btw.
    I've investigated sexual harrassment cases not just where a woman has complained, also where a man has complained. It's not about being called 'dear, love' or anything like that though I agree that is unprofessional, it's not harrassment. It's about comments, touching and in some cases bullying often along the lines of women being unable to do the job because they are women etc. Much along the lines that MA Caver has complained about women being nasty scheming creatures out to get him, sorry I don't buy that.

    In my experience very few women will allege sexual harrassment unless they feel it's true and then never for trivial reasons, going through an investigation isn't easy for anyone. I doubt I'm unusual in knowing women who act professionally at work.
    I will say though everyone who's been sacked is always innocent, it was always someone elses fault never theirs. Now some may be innocent but really if you are doing your job, are a valuable employee why would they sack you just for calling someone sweetheart?

    In being sacked from several companies for the same thing, as I said, look to how you perceive women, think about how a persons behaviour affects others and look to see how professional people work. I agree with Steve there's far more to this that what's here.
     
  2. Jade Tigress

    Jade Tigress RAWR

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    Typically, harassing incidents must be documented and the offending party is notified and requested to stop. Getting fired is usually a result of not adhering to the warning(s). I know this might not always be the case, but most companies, especially larger ones with HR departments, follow a protocol for termination based on sexual harassment. Woman are held to the same standard, but someone must report the incident in order for action to be taken.
     
  3. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    But there are also women out there that don't know the difference between a casual flirtatious comment and an all out harassing one.
    Hubby had a young woman come in his office a little while back. Can't quiet remember what he said she wore, it was very girly, something form fitting and not too much coverage. One of the guys had commented on it. now mind you, he works in a work shop, not an office, so the clothes were in themselves only borderline practical.

    He had to gingerly explain about her attire, and the fact that the fellow had only once commented on her dress and not made a habit of it.

    The situation could have very well turned out differently if she had gone straight to HR.
     
  4. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    There are women who may takes things the wrong way everywhere but for one person to find so many of them, in so many jobs, in so many companies must be exceedingly unlucky...or something.

    Common practice these days is usually to log a complaint as it takes more than one to constitute harrassment.
    I'm fond of and respect my shift partners, we spend a lot of time together, sometimes in situations where we have to watch each others backs, we chat a lot but we aren't affectionate, that's inappropriate. We'll bring sweets, bisquits etc in, my Ghurkha shift partner brings curries, that's how we show appreciation for each other. I work with soldiers, depending on where they comes from in the country I get called, love, dear, sweetheart, hinny, petal, flower, duck and some more, in the West country they call both sexes 'my lover, men are 'my ansome' ( handsome!), it's never a bother. sometimes a man will be insulting and start a rant with 'look darlin' in a tone of voice that leaves you no doubt he's insulting not sexual harrassment mind you, insulting, you have to take it in context.

    Sometimes when dealing with drunks, they will try to drape themselves over you, probaly more to do with needing something to lean on rather than anything else. A lot of the soldiers are female, they take everything in their stride, if they allege sexual harrassment you can be 99.9% sure it's serious and true, I've had a female solider come on to me when she was a bit drunk, I politiely declined, it was no big deal. Most women do know when someone is hitting on them and when they aren't, most women do tell someone if they find what they are saying/doing uncomfortable, however if they feel threatened they find it hard to do so and that's when they will complain to someone above them. In some situations expeically if it's mostly male or in a masculine environment some women do find it hard to know how to take what's said to them. it can also be like that in a mostly female workplace. Lads often make sexual remarks to each other, they get crude and women sometimes don't know how they are supposed to respond. Some women don't know how to respond to men as some men don't know how to respond to women. However training and thought into how you say things and how you behave towards other usually solves much of the problems, many companies here as well as the Civil Service and military, police etc have course on Equality and Diversity. Professionalism is the key to good working relationships.
    this is our policy.
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/A...Intelligence/MDPGA/MdpgaDiversityEquality.htm
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  5. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    First, I want to put on the record that sexual harassment is wrong and should not be tolerated. But, sometimes I think there are cases of "it's not what is said, it is who said it" that leads to confusion. I know people who say outrageous things to women at work and the women think it's funny and always talk about how funny so and so is, and then I'll here another person say something not that bad and the women will act offeneded. This sends mixed messages, and goes back to what Steve said. "Act professional"

    Quick story of how things can be very twisted. I had a friend who worked for a big distributor, that shall not be named but might rhyme with BallFart. This was at one of their distribution centers and not a store, anyways, there was a group of guys and girls standing around talking and making crude jokes. A supervisor walks by and makes a general comment to the group about watching the jokes so no one gets offended. About a month later a supervisor position comes up and my friend gets it, a group of three women thought that it should have been one of them that got the job. They complained to a higher up about sexual harassment, that higher up yanks in the supervisor and starts grilling him about why this was going on and nothing had been done about it. This supervisor now claims that he had already "counsellled" my friend on this behavior and they fire him over it. There was no sit down meeting with him at anytime or a one on one conversation to let him know he offended someone. Just a general walk by announcement to a whole group (including the 3 women) and then nothing else. Stories like this also make people upset when sexual harassment is claimed.

    Again, to reiterate, no one should have to deal with being uncomfortable in a work environment and harassed at work, but with so many people crying wolf the legit ones seem to get lost in the shuffle or ignored.
     
  6. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    I so envy you living with normal people!

    And you work with people who have more pressing concerns, like not getting killed on the job.

    Did I mention I envy you?

    Around here, especially in the south, girlyness is king - or queen?
    Girls are still treated and trained to believe that looks are everything, their purpose in life is to get married, preferably the day after graduating high school, and have babies. If you don't have one at least before age 20, you are an old made. I am so seriously not kidding here.

    The whole of society is revolving so a sick extend around sexuality. But noting a healthy way.
    Why we are bombarded with it on every turn (not to mention that manners are eroding fast) while being told that it's sinful (unless you are married and working on a dozen kids, of course)

    PCness has put a bubble over the situation. While it was a necessary step to equal the playing field, it has indeed become a weapon. And like the actual criminal transgression, you will find few women being accused of it. It's like racism, if you are a certain ethnicity, no way you can be racist, no way can women harass men in the work place in this way </sarcasm>

    We in the US have come to a point were we do not face problems head on anymore, like telling people to sod off when need be.


    As to whether or not Carver has a habit of getting too up close to his female coworkers, I don't think I could venture a guess.
    However, many times employers do check up on past jobs. So when the new boss calls the old one as to why they had to let him go, the answer might very well be something like 'He's a good worker, but the women complained' which in turn could be the red flag that send him on his merry way the first hint a women 'feels uncomfortable' around him.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Here's the thing. If you want to stop losing your jobs for this, you need to understand that you can be affectionate outside of work, but obviously your brand of "affectionate" is destructive.

    You say that you don't target anyone... but I wonder. Are you as "affectionate" toward the men in your office or is it just the women?

    And you say that you don't intend to do them harm, but how are they perceiving your behavior? Your intentions are irrelevant.

    You say that you're not aware that it causes discomfort, and yet you freely admit that this isn't the first time this has happened.

    Come on. Listen to yourself.

    Edit to add: One more thing occurred to me. Your management team must have seen the questionable behavior, and if they didn't talk to you about it or make it clear that it wasn't acceptable, particularly after receiving complaints, then they're not doing their jobs well, either. The goal is to stop the crap before it infects the workplace. I've had to have some pretty tough conversations with employees over the years, but while uncomfortable, it saved their jobs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure about the 'normal' bit to be honest. Soldiers can be crude beyond belief and have a sense of humour that can shock you rigid sometimes though it is very funny! they also say what they mean, which isn't a squaddie thing but on the whole a UK thing, I suspect that's why many here find me a bit acerbic for their tastes. :) I'm actually quite tactful, Northerners and the Scots tend to be very outspoken, call a spade a spade type of people.
    In the country as a whole we have the ladettes, trust me no one harasses them, they do the harassing, the drinking, the pinching of bums etc. We have the 'Essex girls' all fake tan, boobs and little clothing but they are strong in their own way, they take life on their own terms. While we have the teenage mothers...no husbands or even boyfriends usually, we have gone the other way in many respects in pushing women into careers. Sometimes stay at home mothers can feel they are the odd ones.
    British women have always been a strong breed, the two world wars showed everyone what we always knew, that we can do anything we put our minds to. The fifites were a bit girlie but even then the need to earn money probably came before anything else, women were expected to work until the married. here the fifites were a time of great austerity, there was still food rationing, bomb sites and shortages. The sixties I think put a stop to all that, that's when women really started coming into their own. Perhaps the difference in our incomes to average Americans meant that women couldn't be seen to be just pretty, working women have always been a norm. My mother worked as did all my friend's mothers. Only the very rich women didn't work.




    As for sex, I think we're quite earthy really and don't really have the guilt these days about sex not that I'm sure we really did have guilt only fear of geting pregnant which went away with the pill, we don't have the hellfire religion either. Women these days expect to have the same sex lives that men have always had, when and how they want. There's a lot of strong women that act as role models here though we do have a subculture of people who are going to make it big on X Factor if only Simon Cowell could believe they can sing...they can't. We've always had a sub culture of criminals too, most of the recent rioters were criminals. I know an MMA fighter who's stuck in a north African country because he and his gang stole £54 Million, he was a good fighter too but obviously can't come back lol. . He took over the Kray's territory, you'll need to look them up.


    I've known of women to be charged with sexual harassment as well as men. These are rarely cases of people taking what was said the wrong way but more of a sustained campaign of what is basically bullying. Hardly anyone thinks they are guilty however, it's always 'unfair' even when it's blatently obvious they are guilty. There's also plenty of hearsay going around 'I know a man who.....' etc what people know is only one side of the story, that of the teller.It's a common myth that you will be sacked for calling a woman dear, I find men who tend to be bitter hawk this story around, often it's because they feel they've been overlooked for promotion etc. It also happens to ethnic minorities 'they only got the job because they are black and they have to fill the quotas' when rarely is that the case. It's the same with crime figures, everyone will tell you here that crime is up when in fact it's down, it's all about perception and what people hear from others. Immigrants are another subject people are vocal about...they are taking all our jobs..well actually no, employers say that they will take on people who turn up for interviews, if that happens to be the immigrants and not the natives well there you are.


    Granfire, you are going to have to move here, that's all I can say. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  9. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I'd love to spend a couple years there.
     
  10. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well you have a standing invitation! be nice to argue face to face rofl!
     
  11. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Articl.../?SiteId=cbmsnhp42911&sc_extcmp=JS_2911_home1

    The hug. It's a simple gesture that can make a happy situation happier or help someone overcome with sadness feel a little better. Studies have shown that hugs can actually make a difference in one's health; research out of the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill found that a hug can lower blood pressure and reduce the harmful physical effects of stress.

    Hugs are thought to be so beneficial, there's even a day dedicated to celebrating the gift of a hug. Jan. 21 has been deemed "National Hugging Day," and according to the organizer's website, the day was "created for family and friends to hug often and freely with one another."
     
  12. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    Yep, the first thing that happens when me and the missus get back from work is a long hug, a kiss or two and some endearments. Makes the tensions of work fall right out of the shoulders.
     
  13. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Worth reading the whole article; it makes it quite clear that you have to be sure that hugs are acceptable and welcome in the workplace.
     
  14. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Is this proper hugs or 'man hugs' the one where two men lean into each other and give a quick slap on the back then move apart sharpish?
     
  15. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    First is fine, but it's what happens AFTER that really matters. :)

    To the OP, I'm going to echo something others have said. If this has happened more than once, then you really need to take a good look at yourself. "They're all out to get me" isn't going to cut it. You clearly have a pattern of behavior that is resulting in these complaints. Regardless of your intention or your interpretation of your actions, it's offending women. Change it.
     
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  16. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    Next time I start a thread about a controversial subject of which I have direct knowledge/experience in ... I'm just going to say " a friend of a friend of mine" instead of using myself as an example... which is what I was trying to do... not talking directly about myself but about the OVERALL problem that exists. It's not JUST ME that is having this problem.. I know what I've been doing wrong and have been taking steps to correct it best as I may... but it's still part of my personality and personal make up that makes me who I am. Obviously I cannot work in such environs being MYSELF without pissing or offending people inadvertently or indirectly so I'm trying to refocus my jobs to where I don't have to interact with any other employees irregardless of their sex and personal spaces.
    This thread has never been "all about me" but about the observations that I've made in over 30 years of working in various jobs. I'm not the only one... and it's not what I intended the focus to be upon. I'm not one who seeks spotlights or pity parties or anything like that. I will use myself as an example to help illustrate a point.

    It is a problem out there, not just with me and that is what I wanted or hoped that the thread and discussion would focus on. I could still learn more things about myself by reading about others and making the (honest) comparisons and seeing where I need to focus on correcting these apparent defects that are getting me (and hundreds of others) fired!
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    This is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I mentioned a complete lack of personal accountability. You presume that your situation is both normal and universal. It is neither. You expect us to believe that you are being victimized and that your recurring issues are unavoidable. I don't buy it.
    This is where you're wrong. If you started this thread expecting a chorus of people to rail against the sexual harassment laws in the country and how unfair everything is, I hate to tell you, but for most people, they work just fine. The vast majority of people in this country have no problem at all discerning the line between appropriate and inappropriate. And when they've crossed the line, they have done so knowingly and understand completely when you let them know that it's not okay. And usually, that's exactly what happens:

    Manager: "Bob, look. I need to talk to you. That joke you told yesterday. I'm not okay with that and I'd like for you to avoid any sexual jokes while at work. Okay?"
    Bob: "But, no one was offended. What's the problem. Even you laughed?"
    Manager: "No one seemed offended, and that's great. But it's still riding the line of our EEO policies and I'd hate for you to get in trouble over something so silly. You're a good employee, Bob. Just watch the jokes and keep it professional."
    Bob: "Sure. I get it. Thanks."

    That's it.

    But more importantly, in an economy like this one, where jobs are harder to come by... dude. Come on. Just do your work. Think about what you say before you say it. Keep things professional. Don't touch your coworkers unless it's required by the job. Don't tell jokes. Avoid telling personal stories. Pretend you're a working machine and get as much done as you can. If you've got enough work to do, you won't have the time to get into trouble.

    To be clear, MOST people won't have to go to such extremes, but if you can't see the lines, better to stay well away from them. Have friends when you're not at work. Get paid so you can eat while you're at work.

    Just my opinion.
     
  18. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah... well, funny how one line seemed to go past everyone's eyes.

    She lied ... but of course the fact that I have a penis and she a vagina makes me the guilty party no matter what.

    I'm done with this thread.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I just hope you figure this out before it costs you another job.
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wow, misogny at it's best. She's a woman therefore she's wrong, I'm a man I'm right. Caver you said yourself you have been told not to touch women more than once in different workplaces by different bosses so why is does that make her wrong?123
     
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