The Hipocritcal Standard of Harassment

MA-Caver

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This has long been an issue with me and well last night at work it got me to thinking again.
First off, sexual harassment is wrong. Of that I won't argue. A woman doesn't need the unwanted attentions of a co-worker (or anyone else) to cloud up her life/work. Men need to understand that "I'm not interested" or "I'm married/in a relationship", is the same as "No".
Now maybe it's a personal issue with me and perhaps I don't understand the term as completely as I think I do. I dunno, what I do know is what I see and what I see is an abuse of the law by those it's trying to protect.
I've lost several jobs based on "harassment" (including my most recent one after TWO YEARS of acting as I've always done... suddenly I'm fired because one isn't comfortable in spite of working with me for two years running... more on that later). Others were just plain outright lies that was my word against hers.
But when I say the "abuse of the law" is this. Last night during work I was asked to assist a female co-worker, we got along fine. I helped best as I could and she appreciated it. Yet, I was mindful of what/how I was speaking to her. When I made a mistake on something (still being new at the job -- 2nd day) and admitted it, she simply said: "Oh that's alright baby, you're fine." then later when we were done, she showed her appreciation with, "you were a big help sweetheart, thank you."
Now, if I had said exactly the same thing to her... with matching tone and intent.... I'd probably be fired! Simply because I'm a man. Just for that reason! So it seems to be a double standard or two definitions of the same thing. A woman can toss out casually a term of endearment "honey, baby, sweetheart, sweetie, et al" and not be thought ill for it. If a man does the same thing, it's harassment. It's illegal, it's grounds for termination... and mostly... it's just bull-s***!
I've known a guy that had a disagreement with his female superior and was fired though witnesses say that he did not use language or anything of that. He disagreed vehemently as she did on an issue related to a job they were working on. She later filed harassment and he got fired without question.
Oh sure he could've fought it and gone through this and that and this lawyer and that dept. of labor and on and on. But that isn't the issue. He (from my understanding) won the "argument" and was shown to be right yet a week later a male superior was forced to fire him to prevent a harassment litigation against the company. His word against hers. She won.
Granted you can't (always) tell intent right away from an off hand remark, or a compliment. But it seems that most women take it for granted that the guy is hitting on her or has her walking around wearing nothing but victoria secret clothing in their minds. This is likely when she turns around and sees him watching her while she working or he says something nice about her hair or dress. Of course his tone and sincerity has NOTHING to do with his intent. He's immediately a lecherous bastard and will rape her the first opportunity if she doesn't complain to the management and get him fired from the job.
I understand that a woman has the right to work in an comfortable environment, free from such things going on because they are a distraction and could hurt her production as an employee. A man is responsible for his actions 100%. Yet a woman IMO, has the equal responsibility to make it known to the man personally and directly that she doesn't like this or that particular form of attention. If she's intimidated to do it alone then she can ask a co-worker to be witness. Instead usually she'll go to HR or management and complain... which forces management to either call the guy in for a "talk" or simply hand him his walking papers.
Being called baby, sweetie, hun, hunny is alright with me and doesn't bother me because I know SHE doesn't mean it THAT way! But I'll be damned if I cannot do the same thing just because SHE thinks I DO mean it THAT way, and doesn't bother to clarify it by asking me straight out if that is how I'm coming across. Oh right, since all men are liars, nothing I say will nullify the fact that I'm lying my *** off and want to jump her bones at the first opportunity.
If I thought I had a REAL chance of taking it to court myself and coming out ahead (i.e. getting my job back or at least compensation for lost time/wages) I'd done something. Why don't I complain myself when I'm being "harassed" because it doesn't bother me and I like to think that I'm intelligent enough to understand that it wasn't meant that way.
It's an abuse of the system IMO and it sucks.
Oh on the lying part... she said that I fondled her ***. I stated to the managers that "interviewed me" (both women, btw), that I'm not that stupid and that my hands never ever touched her below the waist. Friendly pat on the shoulder maybe and returning a hug that was REQUESTED! (she having a tough day and asked for a hug, which was freely given... A frame style too). Never the less, "have to let you go because they have a right to work in a comfortable work environment."
(rant off)
I put off posting this until my give a crap meter broke and I just don't care anymore. It saddens me that we live in such a cold world.
 

Tez3

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If you've lost several jobs due to harrassment....... I'd have to say you may want to have a good look at the way you think of women. You have trotted out several fallacies about women and seem to carry a chip on your shoulder. I know from some of your posts aimed at me you can be very judgemental and actually downright wrong in understanding what was said.
 
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MA-Caver

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If you've lost several jobs due to harassment....... I'd have to say you may want to have a good look at the way you think of women. You have trotted out several fallacies about women and seem to carry a chip on your shoulder. I know from some of your posts aimed at me you can be very judgemental and actually downright wrong in understanding what was said.

I carry the chip because I've been lied about and lied to... costing me a job for no viable reason. One company fired me simply on hearsay from a woman that called them up and so as soon as I walked in the door it was bye bye without so much as asking my side of it, as if I had NO defense worth speaking. So don't go laying chips on my shoulders without knocking the ones off your own.

YOUR reaction is exactly what I thought it would be by the way. No wait, I'll take that back... your reaction is the exact type that gets me fired unjustly!
How I think about women is not as gawd-awful as you might think. Reading past posts on MT should speak for themselves loudly and clearly.
 
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Sukerkin

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Are you getting your 'posters' right, Tez? It's one of those moments where I think either I missed the 'action' (the posts you refer to) or didn't read something in the same way.

Leaving that aside, Caver, are things really like that over in America? If so, remind me never to go there in search of employment as I'd be fired within a week!

Whilst I am not one to get physically 'touchy' in the workplace, I am pretty free with my compliments to my colleagues. Indeed, with my female workmates I can be downright flirty once I get to know them well. But there is always that question of knowing when a woman in the work-place does not like such things (or when it would be unseemly) and behaving accordingly. Of course, as you say, it would be best if they gave you a chance to learn this rather than have you beheaded out-of-hand.
 

granfire

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I had a lengthy reply typed out, but the cyber gremlins ate it.

Yep, the situation is pretty much that way in the US. The mere hint of impropriety can get you canned.
hubby is in lower management and the union rep is his best friend in the never ending task of avoiding trouble. Accidental contact was reported as assault at one time, a write up about foul language...and the man is not a cussing man, really.

Yes, I dare say, the harassment option can be abused. I am sure there are a few people in the shop with Hubby, 'ladies' who owe their advancement to the fact that they could cry foul at any given time, and while they are slow to hand out pink slips, the manure hits the fan at maximum velocity over at that place at the drop of a hat (heck, even dead people suit the place over discrimination charges...I wonder if the dead people know they were discriminated against)

Depending on the shop you are at, yes, a 'she said' can get your behind on the street in no time flat.
I think the technical term for the offense is 'creating a hostile work environment'
Sadly that charge is pretty much a one way street...
 

Sukerkin

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Oh my! That is a clear case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

By the way, Gran, the improved board software saves a copy of posts in preparation. If you 'lose' one due to a connection glitch or a mistaken click you can get it back by using the recover button (which is in the bottom left corner of the post-writing window I think).
 

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If you've lost several jobs due to harrassment....... I'd have to say you may want to have a good look at the way you think of women. You have trotted out several fallacies about women and seem to carry a chip on your shoulder. I know from some of your posts aimed at me you can be very judgemental and actually downright wrong in understanding what was said.

That's something that occurred to me, as well. There is and can be a double standard, absolutely, and many employers, especially on the lower end of the pay scale, will simply terminate the accused with minimal investigation rather than actually look into it unless the case is clearly unfounded (like the accused was demonstrably somewhere else).

But it's not as one-sided as all that. Generally, harassment is is unwanted or offensive actions AFTER being asked to stop or when you know (or should have known) they are unwanted/offensive. It's not harassment to ask a coworker out; it is to ask him or her out after being told to leave them alone, for example. I worked at a job where the policy was that any comments on attire were to be done by a supervisor of the same sex. So, if a male supervisor had a female employee come into a job site literally wearing a g-string and pasties, the most he could say was "go home" and he'd have to call in a female supervisor from another site if necessary to explain why. If that female supervisor had a male come in wearing a banana hammock... yep, she'd have to call a male supervisor from elsewhere to address it. Some places are so paranoid, employees won't complement each other's appearance... And women HAVE gotten in trouble for phrases and endearments like Caver's talking about. Here's one opinion piece talking about that mentions some of those cases... (I'm not endorsing the source; I don't know enough about it to have a comment one way or the other, though this piece seems OK.) I've seen schoolteachers go through almost comical measures to avoid touching a student while leaning down over a desk to help them with their work...

I don't think that Tez was saying that Caver has any sort of disrespectful attitude by intent. But it is possible that something he is doing without intent is being misinterpreted.
 
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jks9199

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Oh my! That is a clear case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

By the way, Gran, the improved board software saves a copy of posts in preparation. If you 'lose' one due to a connection glitch or a mistaken click you can get it back by using the recover button (which is in the bottom left corner of the post-writing window I think).

You seem to have to be in the "Advanced" reply view to get to the saved draft; just click that "Go Advanced", then look for the "Restore Saved Content" button.
 

granfire

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It was a mega glitch...when I clicked 'reply' nothing happened, when I left the reply page the forum was busy....Bob's minions were out in full force!

But I remembered the essence of my post. :)
 
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MA-Caver

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But it's not as one-sided as all that. Generally, harassment is is unwanted or offensive actions AFTER being asked to stop or when you know (or should have known) they are unwanted/offensive.
Agreed here. My argument to my managers on my last job, was that the ones accusing me (oh and of course I was denied the right to face my accusers...likely on the probability that I might hunt them down and slice them to little pieces and feed them to the cat fish in the river :rolleyes: ) that they did not say by words, actions or even body language that they didn't appreciate it. They argued back (vehemently -- like Tez is wont to do) that it was not their responsibility! The effort it took for me to supress my outrage at this was monumental at best. I did mentioned that I was asked by at least two coworkers to "don't touch me", one of them politely explained why (prior childhood abuse, which I understood and respected her reasons) the other loud and indignant,... guess what? I never did again. Still talked friendly and joked and worked on projects with them but that was it. Those women I'll admire and respect because they put on their big girl panties (read: being MATURE) and took responsibility for themselves instead of cowering behind management and pointing fingers and spicing it up with things that I didn't do.
I am by nature very affectionate to EVERYONE, man, woman, child. I do not however have an urge to sleep with them or even get a quick thrill by mere physical contact however appropriate it is.
I'm trying very hard at this next job to be a cold shoulder, heartless type of bastard that corporations seem to want their employees to be. Leaving behind my warm, caring human being interior at home. Hard to do when a fellow (female) employee uses a term of endearment fearlessly, where as I gotta watch what the hell I say. I guess I really am missing the big picture here.

It's not harassment to ask a coworker out; it is to ask him or her out after being told to leave them alone,
Correct! You're never going to know what a person will respond until you ask. But "no" does mean "no!" and that should be the end of it. If it's repeated then yeah, go to supervisor/management. Yet many companies have a no fraternization policy that inhibits that.
Basically just wanting workers to be drones.

for example. I worked at a job where the policy was that any comments on attire were to be done by a supervisor of the same sex. So, if a male supervisor had a female employee come into a job site literally wearing a g-string and pasties, the most he could say was "go home" and he'd have to call in a female supervisor from another site if necessary to explain why. If that female supervisor had a male come in wearing a banana hammock... yep, she'd have to call a male supervisor from elsewhere to address it.
That is just too extreme for my tastes. Too anal. Wouldn't care how much they paid me... couldn't get me to work there. I'm a human being not an autonomous drone.

Some places are so paranoid, employees won't complement each other's appearance... And women HAVE gotten in trouble for phrases and endearments like Caver's talking about.
Like I said I could very easily go up to my managers and do the same thing... but I'm not an ***. I know that there are a lot of single mom's out there who need their jobs. Am I going to be an arsehole and get them in trouble/written up/fired just because they called me baby, hunny, sweetie? No, I let it roll off because I know they don't mean it THAT way! So, that is the source of my frustration and rant. How is it that they don't mean it and I do ??

I don't think that Tez was saying that Caver has any sort of disrespectful attitude by intent. But it is possible that something he is doing without intent is being misinterpreted.
No, Tez reminds me of several women (who apparently have issues with men who complain about women) who have imagined my view-point of women in general as misogynistic when in fact that it's quite the opposite. What I hate is hypocrisy by anyone! That (if she had taken the time to read the thread title more closely), is what I'm talking about!
 

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I've found that being professional is a very easy way to avoid this kind of thing.

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MA-Caver

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I've found that being professional is a very easy way to avoid this kind of thing.

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Yeah sure... define professionalism.. because I haven't seen it with ANY company that I worked for. And there has been a lot of companies of various types that I've signed paychecks from.
 

granfire

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Tez has not encountered the crap that flies over here.

Any place else she'd be right, too.
But she's a straight shooter, she'd probably be the first to tell one of these females in question what a tart they are and to give it up.


But sadly, once cannot compliment a person's appearance anymore without fear of being thought of as harassing.
Good grief, it's been well over 15 years in the making. I remember myself calling a kid on the job 'hey handsome' and taking it back immediately, not because the guy minded, but of all the ruckus around being PC about such things.
 
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MA-Caver

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Tez has not encountered the crap that flies over here.

Any place else she'd be right, too.
But she's a straight shooter, she'd probably be the first to tell one of these females in question what a tart they are and to give it up.


But sadly, once cannot compliment a person's appearance anymore without fear of being thought of as harassing.
Good grief, it's been well over 15 years in the making. I remember myself calling a kid on the job 'hey handsome' and taking it back immediately, not because the guy minded, but of all the ruckus around being PC about such things.
Well, if it starts happening that women are getting into trouble over it on an increasing basis, then it's likely I'm not the only one disgruntled with the hypocrisy over it.
I've seen the movie "North Country" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0395972/ and while it's a fictionalized account, it wasn't far from the truth as I remember the case over as it happened. So I'm not wholly insensitive, nor ignorant.
 

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I've found that being professional is a very easy way to avoid this kind of thing.

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I agree. That's really the big thing; if everyone, whatever their gender or sexual interest, treats the workplace as a professional environment and acts like it, problems seldom happen.
 

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When you say you have been asked at least twice by 2 different woman not to touch them I think I see a pattern. Where are you touching people and what environment are you working? I just don't see a reason to touch anyone at the work place. I don't shake hands I don't pat people on the back I just don't touch people.
 

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Professionalism is pretty easy to define. It's being friendly without the presumption of familiarity, recognizing that we're there to get work done. Work is NEVER an inappropriate topic of conversation at work.

I can see a person being victimized by an unscrupulous opportunist once. But, if you're running into this as a pattern... dude. You need to examine your behavior. You're doing something innappropriate. At the very least, you are having trouble recognizing the depth and nature of the relationships you have at work. At worst, you're doing things that are creepy and blaming the victims. Or it could be anywhere in between. But I cannot believe that you've just had such bad luck that you run into women out to get you for no reason at all.

Tez, to answer your question, NO, it doesn't work like this. Sexual Harassment has to be either sexual favors as a condition of employment or a "the conduct has purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive environment."

The first situation is very cut and dry. "Hey, I've got a vacancy open in accounting. That would be a promotion for you. Right? {insert proposition here}."

The second is actually more commonly talked about, but much harder to document. Typically, the investigators look at things like length of the behavior, frequency, whether it's actually interfering with work or just humiliating, severity of the behavior and just generally all of the circumstances surrounding the complaint. Usually, any grievances are filed with some CREO or EEO component, are kept confidential, and are acted on only if there's some merit to the complaints. And if there is merit and it's determined that a hostile work environment exists, the company is well within its right to protect itself by terminating the employee with cause.

The point is, "Hey, nice shirt," isn't necessarily sexual harassment. A casual touch isn't necessarily harassment, either, although it's pretty unnecessary. Calling someone sugar or honey or sweetheart isn't necessarily harassment, although it's unprofessional. And the truth is, embarrassing, humiliating or otherwise torturing employees and being crappy boss isn't necessarily creating a hostile work environment.

All of this to say in conclusion, there's WAY more to this story that we're being told, and I see several red flags that make me dubious. At the very least, there's a lack of personal accountability in that MA Caver says that this has happened before, but hasn't yet acknowledged that he's the one variable that's been consistent. New companies, new positions, new women involved, and yet somehow he runs into women who are gaming the system? That doesn't wash with me.
 
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MA-Caver

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Professionalism is pretty easy to define. It's being friendly without the presumption of familiarity, recognizing that we're there to get work done. Work is NEVER an inappropriate topic of conversation at work.

I can see a person being victimized by an unscrupulous opportunist once. But, if you're running into this as a pattern... dude. You need to examine your behavior. You're doing something innappropriate. At the very least, you are having trouble recognizing the depth and nature of the relationships you have at work. At worst, you're doing things that are creepy and blaming the victims. Or it could be anywhere in between. But I cannot believe that you've just had such bad luck that you run into women out to get you for no reason at all.

Tez, to answer your question, NO, it doesn't work like this. Sexual Harassment has to be either sexual favors as a condition of employment or a "the conduct has purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive environment."

The first situation is very cut and dry. "Hey, I've got a vacancy open in accounting. That would be a promotion for you. Right? {insert proposition here}."

The second is actually more commonly talked about, but much harder to document. Typically, the investigators look at things like length of the behavior, frequency, whether it's actually interfering with work or just humiliating, severity of the behavior and just generally all of the circumstances surrounding the complaint. Usually, any grievances are filed with some CREO or EEO component, are kept confidential, and are acted on only if there's some merit to the complaints. And if there is merit and it's determined that a hostile work environment exists, the company is well within its right to protect itself by terminating the employee with cause.

The point is, "Hey, nice shirt," isn't necessarily sexual harassment. A casual touch isn't necessarily harassment, either, although it's pretty unnecessary. Calling someone sugar or honey or sweetheart isn't necessarily harassment, although it's unprofessional. And the truth is, embarrassing, humiliating or otherwise torturing employees and being crappy boss isn't necessarily creating a hostile work environment.

All of this to say in conclusion, there's WAY more to this story that we're being told, and I see several red flags that make me dubious. At the very least, there's a lack of personal accountability in that MA Caver says that this has happened before, but hasn't yet acknowledged that he's the one variable that's been consistent. New companies, new positions, new women involved, and yet somehow he runs into women who are gaming the system? That doesn't wash with me.
I admitted that I am an affectionate person.
I shall say no more as I've pointed out that I do not target specific people. I do not target ANYONE! ...unless I honestly intend to do them harm. I've had enough of remaining silent about it. I use my personal experiences as an example. But, again I do not think I'm ALONE in this. I've known others who have been unjustly terminated because of this. I've never denied that it does not exist either. If I am doing something and not aware that it is causing discomfort or harm, and discover otherwise then I'll stop, as I've mentioned before. Some I know just don't care one way or the other. They know where their lines are crossed at and will speak up for themselves when it is crossed.

Women have asked for equality and they've gotten it. So by god ... USE IT... speak for yourself first and foremost then seek help if you're unable to resolve the matter. Own up to the phrase "I'm my own woman" because if that's true then no-one speaks FOR YOU ahead of you. Self defense isn't always about physical contact!
 

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Leaving that aside, Caver, are things really like that over in America?
Yes, well, no, actually, Caver understates the problems. I happen to be a white guy. Therefore, I am always suspected of being a bigot, I happen to be straight, therefore, I am always suspected of being a homophobe. I'm a single dad with sole custody. Single MOMS get all kinds of respect, Oprah couldn't go a month without the plight of some poor single mom, abandoned with her children by some ruthless deadbeat... My son's mom has paid a total of $400 in child support in 14 years... When she had custody, she could refuse to let me see him on a whim, violate the custody agreement with impunity, but, I was 2 days late on a payment, when she had refused to let me see him, they suspended my driver's license and threatened to jail me. Minority groups in this country, and somehow, without any real reason, women qualify as a minority, have only to hint they have been oppressed by the evil man, and especially the evil white man, and the doors of the legal system fly open, people fall all over themselves to "Help the oppressed" whether or not they actually are oppressed or not.
Should a woman start smacking her husband, and or pelt him with dishware and he responds by pinning her arms to her sides and her *** to the floor until she seemed reasonable, at which point he released her and left the room. If she called the cops and claimed to be battered, no matter what her husband said, no matter how much crockery lay on the floor in pieces, he goes to jail overnight, at least.
Equal justice under the law is a nice pat phrase, but, like most pat phrases, it isn't true in word or deed.
One needs look no further than Lorena Bobbit to see the huge double standard in action. She cut OFF her husband's penis!!! Had a man, done anything remotely similar to his wife he would have been pilloried in the media, almost as badly as John Wayne Bobbit was, based on the wholly unsubstantiated story of his attacker.
Yeah, it IS that Friggin bad.
 

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I admitted that I am an affectionate person.
..Oops... I would have to say MA-C that a statement like that in this context will not serve your cause well.

In my experience though, I do know that there are one or two women who can dish it out and but then cannot take it back. Personally, I think I have become very acutely aware of the comments and motivations of work colleagues both male and female. I think it is all well and good to have a little back-and-forth banter especially with those colleagues we trust. I think I have learned that the more important mindset though is never to completely trust any colleague.

As Steve has concisely reported, maintain professionalism and you will be way less likely to get a rep for certain kinds of behaviour, subsequently it will be much more difficult to ever be believably accused of inappropriateness. You must begin to build trust somewhere. Forego your affectionate personality in the workplace and simply act right and be professional.

That is just my opinion based upon a mix of the above discourse and personal experience. I wish you well :)
 

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