The definition of a McDojo!!

[Gordon Nore]

Did these people do ANY due-diligence? Did they visit ANY other schools to compare? Maybe it's the only school around, maybe any other schools nearby are connected to this one, I dunno. But holy god, I was embarrased just watching it. How in the name of all that is good and holy does a school like this survive? Zero training is better than THIS.

I don't know that 'due diligence' applies in this situation. This is ultimately a consumer choice. Is no martial arts better than this experience? I don't know that. That seems a bit extreme.

I see this merely as people being graded far too fast. That's an assumption on my part, but the boy looks awfully young. Like I say, pretend these are lower-ranked kyu (or gup, I guess), and this ain't such a bad showing.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know that 'due diligence' applies in this situation. This is ultimately a consumer choice. Is no martial arts better than this experience? I don't know that. That seems a bit extreme.

in my opinion, yes, zero training would be better than this.

as a third dan, this kid might actually believe he can defend himself. Everything about his training experience has told him so, and he has been validated by his rank. That misplaced trust might get him killed someday.

this kind of false sense of security could be deadly.

I see this merely as people being graded far too fast.

no doubt! and in the extreme!

That's an assumption on my part, but the boy looks awfully young. Like I say, pretend these are lower-ranked kyu (or gup, I guess), and this ain't such a bad showing.

But I can't pretend that, because the teacher gave him a bloody third dan, for crying out loud. It was a bad showing for anything higher than yellow, maybe one step above yellow if yer feeling reaaaallly generous and it's a "kiddie" rank instead of an adult rank. Anything more than that, and it was a bad showing. It is what it is, and the teacher gave a third dan for it. There is no way to pretend it was something other than that, and no way to justify it.

I can't make exceptions for the fact that he is young, either. It was a third dan, for crying out loud, the kid should never have been allowed to test for that kind of rank to begin with. And trying to make a distinction between "kiddie" ranking vs. "adult" ranking isn't an excuse either, because it's being presented as a third dan (it wasn't even clear that they were doing this, it actually looked like it was just a regular third dan without any conditions on it, I'm just wracking my brains trying to figure out how this could be justified). Why would a "kiddie" third dan even exist, much less be the equivalent of an adult yellow belt? What good does that do anyone? It just sets the kid up for being fooled, and someday that kid is going to have a really really hard lesson thrown in his face.

the only justice that could be done here is to take the belt back and give the kid a yellow. there is just no two ways around it. This was a disservice in the extreme, and that instructor ought to be ashamed of himself.

Since he belongs to an organization, ATA, what the hell kind of oversight do they have? What does the parent org. think of this kind of thing? Do they encourage this? Does this freakshow come from the top? Is this the standard of the ATA? Good god, there is absolutely nothing about this situation that ought to be acceptable.

I've seen lots of discussions here in the threads where people lament the degredation of TKD. I never would have expected it to actually hit this level of absolute garbage. If this is becoming the norm in TKD, then the art is truly in trouble. I commend those out there who strive to keep TKD a viable and effective martial art, but it must be a terrible uphill battle.

I am just stunned by this display.

 

[Gordon Nore]

as a third dan, this kid might actually believe he can defend himself. Everything about his training experience has told him so, and he has been validated by his rank. That misplaced trust might get him killed someday.

Yeah. I don't disagree.

But I can't pretend that, because the teacher gave him a bloody third dan, for crying out loud. It was a bad showing for anything higher than yellow, maybe one step above yellow if yer feeling reaaaallly generous and it's a "kiddie" rank instead of an adult rank. Anything more than that, and it was a bad showing. It is what it is, and the teacher gave a third dan for it. There is no way to pretend it was something other than that, and no way to justify it.

That's why I don't believe in kiddie ranks, per se. I prefer to see children graded and ranked as conservatively as possible, so when or if they move to an adult class, and are no longer the biggest / strongest / oldest / highest ranked, they keep their rank, and they have to get their game up. I don't like black belts for kids. Period. I don't care if it's a five-year-old dan or fifteen year-old-dan. Because even if you do have a fifteen-year-old who can do all the stuff a dan can do, s/he's still only fifteen. And getting attacked on the street is a big deal. It may be common in some neighbourhoods -- it happens where I teach school. I want kids I teach to realize that the guy who wants to pick a fight might have a knife or some friends to back him up. I want that ego in check. I want that kid to know s/he's learned a fraction of what's available, and I want them to extricate themselves and walk or run away.

I was talking to a young boy the other day at my public school who had been jumped by a sixteen year old, caught a black eye, and got some of his stuff stolen. If that how it rolls on the street, I really don't want any of my kids thinking they're up for that.

I can't make exceptions for the fact that he is young, either. It was a third dan, for crying out loud, the kid should never have been allowed to test for that kind of rank to begin with.

Actually I'm not making exceptions. I'm saying I would prefer kids not get black belts, kiddie or otherwise, because it might seem real to them. I'm saying that given all the rank and technique that has been thrown at this young man in what I presume to be a short time, I think this is a natural result.

I mentioned in some thread or other a visit to a TKD school that I had a bad feeling about. They had a lot of belts. When I say a lot of belts -- everyone's getting their belt back three times. Trade in one yellow for another yellow with a different stripe on it. They were testing everybody every three months. When I stopped by they had twenty kids and youth grading from yellow to brown, and they all looked pretty much the same. They were happy. Sa Bum was happy. Some of the parents looked happy. Some of them looked a little bored coming back every three months and seeing the same thing over and over again.

the only justice that could be done here is to take the belt back and give the kid a yellow. there is just no two ways around it. This was a disservice in the extreme, and that instructor ought to be ashamed of himself.

Presumably his teacher is not going to take it back. I suspect that this is how the teacher teaches. Maybe this kid is his great hope. And I find this all very sad.

 

[Laurentkd]

agree with Celtic tiger

other than teaching crescent kicks at white belt, and having required breaking at white, there is nothing about the web site that screams "McDojo"

Why do you think that having a required break at white screams mcdojo? Just about anyone can break a one inch pine board with a hammer fist after a few minutes of instruction. I actulaly tend to think schools that don't require breaking for their promotion are more apt to be mcdojos.

 

[Twin Fist]

because breaking IS a parlor trick, and it is easy to say "see, little Johnny really IS learning something, he broke a board!!" even when he cant do a kick correctly......

I dislike the use of tricks

 

[Tez3]

I must admit the point of breaking pieces of wood rather eludes me, especially when they are specially prepared to break. I would be impressed though if someone picked up a log or lump of wood straight off the ground and broke it.
I don't mean to disrespect those who do breaking, it's just I find little point in it. I expect it's because we test our punches and kicks out on people lol! :ultracool

 

[Gordon Nore]

We often say on these threads that 'boards and bricks don't hit back.' True enough, but we hit all kinds of things in MA that don't hit back: targets, bags, and shields. Breaking, to me, is OK once in a while, but you don't let someone break if they're not using proper technique in the first place. If they are using good technique, breaking is a good way for the student to see what she/he has accomplished. As you practise more, over the years, it's fun to see where that has taken you as far as breaking.

Then it's back to push-ups and drills.

If a teacher doesn't use breaking, that's fine. If a teacher does, it's not automatically McDojo. I had to break on my BB test, but it was a far easier break than I've done before, and I certainly wasn't going to fail if I was unsuccessful. I asked why we broke at all for dan, since it wasn't a big part of our training -- we might break some boards once a year or so for fun -- and was told it was simply something my teacher's teacher had done, so they kept it up.

I would say, if you're going to teach it, don't build it up to be the be-all-end-all. Explain that you're simply applying effective technique to a vulnerable spot on the board that makes it pop. Most people can break one quite easily, multiple board breaking takes more skill and practice.

 

[Tez3]

While I don't personally think there's a point in breaking wood etc I don't think it's something you can judge a school by in respect of whether it's genuine or not. It's a training aid to some, it's not to others, it's no indicator of the standard of training.
We have the NHS so it's cheaper to break people lol!

 

[Gordon Nore]

While I don't personally think there's a point in breaking wood etc I don't think it's something you can judge a school by in respect of whether it's genuine or not. It's a training aid to some, it's not to others, it's no indicator of the standard of training.
We have the NHS so it's cheaper to break people lol!

Agreed. It not such a big deal. Unless the goal is competitive breaking, which is something I'm not into. That said, when we do get the odd breaking class, I'm just an overgrown kid.

 

[Windsinger]

Just about anyone can break a one inch pine board with a hammer fist after a few minutes of instruction.

This brought something to mind about my first failed attempt to learn TKD.

Back around 1992-93, I took TKD for about 3 months at a school across from where I worked (Jong Kim School, at the time. Now I think it's an Ed Parker's school, iirc.). Because I joined within days of the school opening, all 15 students were white belts. Our first testing day, about 2 months after everything started, one of our requirements was to break a brick. If we couldn't break one brick, no advancement to yellow belt (no mid-level stripes at this school).

I never thought about that before, really.

 

[Gordon Nore]

This brought something to mind about my first failed attempt to learn TKD.

Back around 1992-93, I took TKD for about 3 months at a school across from where I worked (Jong Kim School, at the time. Now I think it's an Ed Parker's school, iirc.). Because I joined within days of the school opening, all 15 students were white belts. Our first testing day, about 2 months after everything started, one of our requirements was to break a brick. If we couldn't break one brick, no advancement to yellow belt (no mid-level stripes at this school).

I never thought about that before, really.

A brick?!? after two months?

What was the outcome?

 

[Windsinger]

A brick?!? after two months?

What was the outcome?

Actually, a little over 1/2 the class advanced. IIRC, that brought us to 9 yellow belts and 6 white belts. Shortly after that, I quit the school. Not because of anything at the school, itself, but because my work schedule simply wasn't allowing for it. I wish I'd been as smart then as I am now. My work schedule kept me from class for four months this time, and I'm still in it. And I think, barring serious injury, I'm in it for the long haul this time.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Actually, a little over 1/2 the class advanced. IIRC, that brought us to 9 yellow belts and 6 white belts. Shortly after that, I quit the school. Not because of anything at the school, itself, but because my work schedule simply wasn't allowing for it. I wish I'd been as smart then as I am now. My work schedule kept me from class for four months this time, and I'm still in it. And I think, barring serious injury, I'm in it for the long haul this time.

I'm still stuck on this.

A brick?!? after two months?
What was the outcome?

I can't see this being an impediment to the first promotion, nor can I see it as a training priority in the first two months. It also seems just a wee bit dangerous to me, but then again, I've never busted a brick.

 

[Twin Fist]

gordon,
I got plenty of breaking experience

requiring a BRICK break at white belt is beyond un-needed. it is recklessly dangerous, IMO

 

[Gordon Nore]

gordon,
I got plenty of breaking experience

I've busted some wood in my time, but never a brick, so I confess some ignorance. I know my teachers have broken bricks, but they've never encouraged us to.

requiring a BRICK break at white belt is beyond un-needed. it is recklessly dangerous, IMO

Certainly seems that way to me. I didn't get to break anything until after a year, and it was a single board. Hitting that board and not breaking it happens, and it's on the painful side. Hands get conditioned over time -- I don't see any way around this.

 

[garrisons2]

Personally I believe that there is value to breaking, even if our boards practically fall apart by themselves, the value is in accuracy and focus, you can miss it

 

[terrylamar]

Personally I believe that there is value to breaking, even if our boards practically fall apart by themselves, the value is in accuracy and focus, you can miss it

I think the true value is in building confidence and a sense of accomplishment.

To lower belt who have no experience breaking boards, multiple boards, bricks, cement and other items are scared to death of breaking.

The teacher will coach them, build their confidence, although they, truely, won't believe until they complete the break themselves.

The look on their faces is priceless.

Their confidence in themselves is increased.

Your status as a teacher in their eyes is increased.

Their dedication to the Art they are studying and you are teaching will be increased.

Breaking, when done properly, does have a place in promotion test.

 

[Tez3]

I think the true value is in building confidence and a sense of accomplishment.

To lower belt who have no experience breaking boards, multiple boards, bricks, cement and other items are scared to death of breaking.

The teacher will coach them, build their confidence, although they, truely, won't believe until they complete the break themselves.

The look on their faces is priceless.

Their confidence in themselves is increased.

Your status as a teacher in their eyes is increased.

Their dedication to the Art they are studying and you are teaching will be increased.

Breaking, when done properly, does have a place in promotion test.

But this doesn't help if the school itself is a McDojo does it? It doesn't help quite honestly if it's not! A good instructor is a good instructor and can do all those things for his students without breaking boards.
What we were discussing is how to tell a McDojo from a good school, the breaking part is of little help in that exercise.
My instructor and I can break things other than bodies, we did a demo a while back and he broke 200 roof tiles in 20 seconds, I don't know if you know what I mean but they are quite thick when laid in piles of ten. He showed me how to do it with a couple which frankly was quite easy, didn't do anything for my confidence or self esteem just made me laugh. It is however a good crowd pleaser with non martial artists and raised money for charity which was the aim.

 

[Sylo]

But this doesn't help if the school itself is a McDojo does it? It doesn't help quite honestly if it's not! A good instructor is a good instructor and can do all those things for his students without breaking boards.
What we were discussing is how to tell a McDojo from a good school, the breaking part is of little help in that exercise.
My instructor and I can break things other than bodies, we did a demo a while back and he broke 200 roof tiles in 20 seconds, I don't know if you know what I mean but they are quite thick when laid in piles of ten. He showed me how to do it with a couple which frankly was quite easy, didn't do anything for my confidence or self esteem just made me laugh. It is however a good crowd pleaser with non martial artists and raised money for charity which was the aim.

Breaking for me has always meant something more than just a laugh.. for me.

Some things might be easy to break just by non chalantly bashing it, but There are some challenges in there that directly relate to my training. It give some of the mysticism of the art back.. because every jo blow on the street corner cannot break 4 concrete blocks on a whim. It helps me focus power, quickness, accuracy, range. Sure I can kick a bag.. or whatever to do those things.. but when your able to "see" the damage an attack does. It gives you at least some sort of guidline as to how effective the technique would be in combat. If I can break a board with a ridgehand.. imagine the damage to the human body.

Board breaking does not make/not make a Mcdojo.

Spotting a Mcdojo is easy for me.

1. if they have more than 10 belts.. and some of those belts are pink, camo, red white and blue.. etc.

2. if they make you pay for everything.. uniform, belts, sparring gear, boxing gloves, everything. They require it even, if they have some in house for people to use.

3. If everyone is black belt. especially kids 5-10 years old.

4. Foam demo weapons. More focus on demo's than actual self defense.

5. Extremely High prices compared to other dojos.

theres more.. but some things can go either way.

 

[terrylamar]

But this doesn't help if the school itself is a McDojo does it?

Sure it would. Even "a McDojo" can do some things right.

It doesn't help quite honestly if it's not!

I think it does have value. If you don't, don't break.

A good instructor is a good instructor and can do all those things for his students without breaking boards.

A good instructor can do many things or omit many things and still be a good instructor. He doesn't have to be able to be able to do any of these things himself, just be able to teach someone else to do it. Look at world class gymnastics. Those coaches cannot get up on the uneven bars and do any of the things the girls can, but they sure can teach. Being able to do them himself does go to his credibiltiy. Breaking boards is only one aspect of it.

What we were discussing is how to tell a McDojo from a good school, the breaking part is of little help in that exercise.

Breaking was brought up, I merely commented on it.

My instructor and I can break things other than bodies, we did a demo a while back and he broke 200 roof tiles in 20 seconds, I don't know if you know what I mean but they are quite thick when laid in piles of ten. He showed me how to do it with a couple which frankly was quite easy, didn't do anything for my confidence or self esteem just made me laugh. It is however a good crowd pleaser with non martial artists and raised money for charity which was the aim.

Many things in the Martial Arts look difficult, until you are shown how to do them. I would guess, until you were shown how, you would not have attempted this break on your own. Now you are confident you can do it, laughing all the way.