The definition of a McDojo!!

[Tez3]

Sure it would. Even "a McDojo" can do some things right.



I think it does have value. If you don't, don't break.



A good instructor can do many things or omit many things and still be a good instructor. He doesn't have to be able to be able to do any of these things himself, just be able to teach someone else to do it. Look at world class gymnastics. Those coaches cannot get up on the uneven bars and do any of the things the girls can, but they sure can teach. Being able to do them himself does go to his credibiltiy. Breaking boards is only one aspect of it.



Breaking was brought up, I merely commented on it.



Many things in the Martial Arts look difficult, until you are shown how to do them. I would guess, until you were shown how, you would not have attempted this break on your own. Now you are confident you can do it, laughing all the way.

Damn right I would have done it on my own, I'm not a bloody sheep! it's not rocket science is it?

What a fuss over a few bits of old board lol! All I said was it wasn't for me, I wasn't condemning it for anyone else, go break a forest if thats your wont, it's not mine but it takes all sorts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is a McDojo.

I finally had time to watch this one at home (like Flying Crane, I cannot view Youtube at work). Two words: Oh... my.

I cannot comment on whether or not he did all of the correct movements in the correct sequence of the form because I am not familiar with the songham forms (God, I hope and pray that that isn't what it's supposed to look like). But I can say this:

Both in sparring and in the form, he never got full extension from any of his kicks and his kicks had zero snap to them. No technique was executed with any power at all. He did move fairly smoothly, both in sparring and in performing the form, and if he walked into my class and moved like that, I'd feel that I had a good foundation to work with. Perhaps too, he is very mature and conducts himself very well (we've all acknowledged that being a blackbelt involves a level of maturation and leadership). I don't know, but I do know that his basics need a lot of work. He has all the right moves; just no power or extension. And something else that I felt was missing: passion and energy.

Is this kid blackbelt material? Not yet, in my opinion, and certainly not 3rd degree. In his defense, he didn't make the video himself, though whoever did did a very good job of making it and probably does not know what they're looking at. Did the maker of the video do this young man any favors? Not if he or she is the one who posted it to Youtube.

I sincerly hope that this young man moves on to a school that can take what he has and help him build it into a solid foundation upon which to build.

As for the school, I can only shake my head in disappointment.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

This is what alot of the ATA schools are in my area, so each there own. I know they make tons of money and give out BB like it is tap water.

 

[BrandonLucas]

It seems to be the trend with ATA schools...I can't say that for all the schools, so I'm not making a blanket statement about ATA in general...but all of the ATA schools that I've personally seen or had experience with have had the McDojo mentality.

There was a demo not too far from the town I live in that ATA was participating in...they did a breaking demo, but the "boards" were actually pieces of styrofoam (sp) painted to look like boards.

I've heard others who attended ATA schools say that they got quality insruction, and their technique was admittedly pretty solid...but the schools that they attended were not close enough to visit.

Now, I'm not trying to offend anyone on this board who attends an ATA dojang, believe me, but I've stated this before...ATA schools are the only TKD schools that I've witnessed in my area that are blatent TKD McDojangs. Their classes pretty much look exactly like that video.

I agree, though, that the kid has a solid foundation to work with. Blackbelt material? No. But he's certainly not without talent.

 

[Dao]

OMG!!!!!!!!!! My first school was like that (Hapkido/taekwondo) but it wasn't bad as that. I got a blue belt when I certainly didn't even earn it. In fact I knew I wasn't ready for the blue belt test but I was told I should take the test. That's when my father decided that I should quit because it was getting closer to $400 mark for a test. This was a long time and that was a lot of money for a test.
I have been to 5 or 6 different schools, most cases because I had to move. It is very difficult to find a good school!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's when my father decided that I should quit because it was getting closer to $400 mark for a test. This was a long time and that was a lot of money for a test.

It is not uncommon to see a black belt test cost this much, but a blue belt test?? Now that is pretty out there!

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

It is not uncommon to see a black belt test cost this much, but a blue belt test?? Now that is pretty out there!

Daniel

wow..

I paid 30 bucks this past saturday to test for red.
our monthly rates are 36 a month, and there are classes on Mon. Wed. Thursday, Friday and Saturday. 3 classes each night, except on friday and sat. and your free to go as much as you like, min. required is 2 a week.

I don't think there is cheaper, at least not where I live.

 

[KELLYG]

O.K.
There have been lots of talk about McDojo's.. To be frank I thought that this line of discussion was a bit overblown. I mean that most of us do MA because we like to not because we are protecting life and limb every day using MA. Then I started looking at people preforming poomse on utube..
WOW!!!! What an eye opener. I was astounded at the lack of discipline control and general technique that was show by people that were competing for tournament GRAND MASTERS. Out of about 20 to 30 video's I watched most of the performers were preforming at a belt level significantly below their current rank (or what my opinion what each rank is to look like) it was appalling.
I get it now thanks!

 

[AMP-RYU]

That video is pure shameful.....that is a pure disgrace.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That video is pure shameful.....that is a pure disgrace.

It aint doin him or the school or the ATA any favors being up on Youtube, that's for sure!

In any case, I am curious as to what it was about the school who's link you posted in your op that made it the definition of a McDojo. These were my observations in a previous post:

How is this hilarious? What is it about their masters and black belt that makes them a Mcdojo? The one picture of a master doing any technique was Linda Roth executing a front kick, and it looked quite good. Some of them have been featured on the cover of MA trade publications; not that this makes them any better, but it certainly is an accomplishment. What is it about the testing requirements that you feel is amiss? Please clarify your statement.

Frankly, I didn't see anything that would turn me off to this school just perusing the website. You were already asked in the very first response what your problem with this school was, but you've yet to respond on this thread at all.

Clarify your reasons for even starting this thread. If you cannot, then you shouldn't have started it in the first place, as all you're doing is degrading another school with no specific reason as to why.

Thank you,

Daniel

 

[CDKJudoka]

I wonder if the BB in that video is an actual 3rd dan or not. Most schools that I know of here in LI, for the most part, do issue BBs to kids (youngest in my dojang being 13 years old) but they are "junior" black belts. Which translates into a BB Candidate when they turn 16, unless they have successfully tested at an adult BB level. We have 2 2nd Dans that are under 16 at our dojang, and they are truly at a 2nd Dan level. Both have been training since they were 4 or 5 years old, and doing it consistently.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I wonder if the BB in that video is an actual 3rd dan or not. Most schools that I know of here in LI, for the most part, do issue BBs to kids (youngest in my dojang being 13 years old) but they are "junior" black belts. Which translates into a BB Candidate when they turn 16, unless they have successfully tested at an adult BB level. We have 2 2nd Dans that are under 16 at our dojang, and they are truly at a 2nd Dan level. Both have been training since they were 4 or 5 years old, and doing it consistently.

Hard to say. But even a junior blackbelt should have looked better than that. And that kid was not a little child; he looked to be at least fourteen.

The system you mention sounds like the Kukkiwon's poom/dan system; a practitioner under the age of either fifteen or sixteen (don't remember off hand which) will attain the rank of first through fourth poom. Poom ranks become the equivalent dan rank when the paperwork is submitted by a fourth dan or higher KKW instructor.

Daniel

 

[IcemanSK]

I agree with Daniel. Being young doesn't mean that they inherantly have bad technique. Sadly, this child is allowed to get away with no trying & "phoning in" his techniques & its been passible. At he Hanmadang in Anaheim this year, I saw many poom belts from Korea & the US that had outstanding technique & discipline. These kids will make excellent Dans when they are older.

The kid in this video would need to unlearn a lot of bad habits were he to move to another school.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I wonder if the BB in that video is an actual 3rd dan or not. Most schools that I know of here in LI, for the most part, do issue BBs to kids (youngest in my dojang being 13 years old) but they are "junior" black belts. Which translates into a BB Candidate when they turn 16, unless they have successfully tested at an adult BB level. We have 2 2nd Dans that are under 16 at our dojang, and they are truly at a 2nd Dan level. Both have been training since they were 4 or 5 years old, and doing it consistently.

The problem is that if you watch the video, the kid is not 3rd dan material, jr BB or not...and I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I've never heard of a jr BB that was able to earn a dan at all...they usually top out at the title of jr BB, correct?

But, on topic, the kid isn't impressive at all. Even if you take into consideration that he's a kid, he just looks like he's going through the motions. He doesn't appear to understand the application of any of the techniques...only that his instructor has showed him where to place his hands and feet, and he just puts them there.

It's like watching a small kid play "The Sky Is Crying" by Stevie Ray Vaughn that has learned the song from a tab sheet...there probably isn't any feeling in it at all, he's just going through the notes that are on the page.

But, like I've said before, it doesn't mean that the kid isn't on the way to earning a blackbelt...I just don't think he's at a blackbelt level for any age.

 

[Flying Crane]

But, on topic, the kid isn't impressive at all. Even if you take into consideration that he's a kid, he just looks like he's going through the motions. He doesn't appear to understand the application of any of the techniques...only that his instructor has showed him where to place his hands and feet, and he just puts them there.

you nailed it with this. I've been trying to figure out how to say it, and this is perfect.

 

[IcemanSK]

you nailed it with this. I've been trying to figure out how to say it, and this is perfect.

Agreed. It's as if he learned a dance for the 7th grade play & does it because he "has to." No consciousness of what he'd doing or even why. Heck, not even any passion for doing it.

I hate to beat the dead horse on this, but this kid's instructor is doing him no favors.

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed. It's as if he learned a dance for the 7th grade play & does it because he "has to." No consciousness of what he'd doing or even why. Heck, not even any passion for doing it.

Another good statement here, and this leads me to another topic, a bit off topic but I thought I'd throw it out there: I personally enjoy forms practice. I know that a lot of people do not, and their reasons are many.

However, I wonder if for at least some of those who do not, perhaps their understanding of the very concept of forms is in line with the above statement. Maybe that is why they don't like forms, and don't see any benefit in their practice.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But, on topic, the kid isn't impressive at all. Even if you take into consideration that he's a kid, he just looks like he's going through the motions. He doesn't appear to understand the application of any of the techniques...only that his instructor has showed him where to place his hands and feet, and he just puts them there.

That, of course assumes that the instructor understood any of the application in the first place. If he never learned, simply going through the motions like this kid, then he cannot teach what he has not learned.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

That, of course assumes that the instructor understood any of the application in the first place. If he never learned, simply going through the motions like this kid, then he cannot teach what he has not learned.

Daniel

Also true. This begs the question: how deep does the rot go?

It's interesting to consider: at some point someone who had good training, must have made a decision to be satisfied with giving his own students poor training. I wonder who is responsible for that?

 

[dancingalone]

That, of course assumes that the instructor understood any of the application in the first place. If he never learned, simply going through the motions like this kid, then he cannot teach what he has not learned.

Daniel

I know a bit about the Songahm system as my niece practices it. They do not have a poom belt. A dan rank is a dan rank. Obviously in a well run dojo, the children know their place and would never dream of correcting an adult unless they have been specifically asked to teach or help out.

The Songahm forms are pretty straight forward. They are athletically challenging to perform compared to Chang Hon or Palgwe or Tae Geuk, but by and large they weren't designed to have any "hidden" applications. What you see is what you get.