The body's reaction to strikes

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
First,

I'm not sure why jb felt he needed to turn my post into a personal attack. If that's the way I came off--then I apologize. I also thank him for including Mr. Jay T. Will in his "fallen warriors" section of his website.

That being said... my lineage comes directly thru Mr. Will. He would have given you all the contact you could handle, and we continue that tradition in his schools. Don't assume that because you act the part of "stone statue" in your classes that that it is the way that everyone trains--it isn't. I've also been fortunate to "touch hands" with some of the heaviest hitters in our business, including Huk Planas, Martin Wheeler, Al Tracy and both of the Flores Brothers. After feeling their power, I don't have any concern over what you think you or Texas could offer me.

I've also been "tested" inside and outside of my studio by students and strangers alike, and my training has never let me down. In particular, Spinning from the Sun and Striking Asp work exactly the way they're supposed to. If you had been fortunate enough to spend time with some of your seniors you would know that the men who trained personally with Mr. Parker (at least the younger Mr. Parker) did indeed test these reactions and that their training sessions bore little resemblance to what you see in most commercialized dojos today. As Mr. Will used to say when recalling his lessons with Mr. Parker: "The lesson wasn't over until he dumped you in the fireplace or something got broken." The human body hasn't signifigantly evolved in the past 40 years, so why do you think that the work done by these men is no longer valid?

As far as the doped-up assailant not responding to pain, etc. Mr. Parker considered this when designing the techniques and employing the targets that he chose. It's also the reason that angular footwook is stressed in our system. A dope head might not feel a broken nose, but his eyes will still water. And a good choke doesn't rely on pain at all.

You don't have to "believe me", but you didn't need to insult me or my state either. Unlike your closing, the body of your response was anything but respectful and reflects poorly on someone with your supposed level of training.

My Friend,

Relax, sometimes responses can come off a little more "raw" than intented. Particularly when your cursed with a biting sense of humor that has a mind of its own. My point on this old thread was simply that I felt the reactions to strikes need to be imperically re-examined (and possibly updated). All the rest of the stuff was friendly banter. This forum is a place to learn, share and tease and pick on each other (without being too mean).

The only question I would ask from your response is why not re-examine? I don't think that is a slight on the originators teachings. But just one more topic to examine and look at from a non-traditionalist perspective. I agree that over the last 40 years the human anatomy hasn't made great strides, but people are more fit, more flexible, more athletic (except in Houston,TX where we have once again retained the crown as the fattest city, and that backup mass adds to the power of our shots (that's the part in neglected to include in the previous post)). Could this change some of the original responses? Maybe not from a control manipulation perspective, but possibly from a pain compliance perspective.

I have a lot of respect for JT Will and how he exposed so many to Kenpo, and acknowledge that everyone has their short comings. Forgiveness is a virtue that is difficult to master and I don't know any of the politics involved with what happened to him so I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie, but acknowledge that he made solid contributions to Kenpo as a whole. Because I feel his information that I have (video of his tv shows in Ohio, both his books, magazines with him in Battle Star Galactica, magazines with articles on him and an obscure video of him teaching sparring drills and 2 man set in San Antonio, Tx shortly prior to this passing) I feel I have gotten a greater persective than some that never met him, like myself. All have added to my perspective on the system. I will always say that I think his Advanced Kenpo book is still one of the best "pictured" Kenpo technique books ever published to this day and holding strong 23 yrs later. The only JT Will student that I've ever seen on video is Brent Berry and he is very skilled and looks to be a banger.

Anyway, no offense intended and none was taken.

jb:asian:

 

[Steve Howard]

jb,
thank you. I likewise withdrawn any negative comments or assumptions made on my part. Your last post shows the true character of kenpo. Peace to you and continued success in your training.

Steve Howard

 

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

So from all the questions about reactions and requests for "empirical" evidence, can I safely assume that most you guys on here aren't actually testing this stuff out to see if it works?

Last night I'm over at a friends house sparring with techs. All of us are a slightly different build (skinny to stalky), height(5'9" -- 6'3", and weight (175--250lbs), so there was an excellent opportunity to experiment on different body types. Afterall, isn't this how you learn? How can you be confident that your training and knowledge is worth all the time and money you're spending if you never try it out?

Anyway, since we are all friends we don't much like the idea of taking soft tissue strikes. Besides if that's all you know, then you are wasting your money. Does this mean they aren't effective? No, but I dropped three of the guys I hit to their knees with a solar plexus shot at about 50% power (hell I didn't even rack my hips to try and generate power). The point is that you should be able to drop an attacker without having to poke him in the eyes, collapse his esophogus, or kick him in the nuts. If you can't then you aren't learning effective kenpo.

I hit the 6'1" 250 guy in the same spot with 50% power just like before and he didn't flinch. So I employ all the mechanics to get more power and he slightly winces (75%). So my options are hit with everything I've got just to prove a point, or use this as a learning experience.

What did I learn? I learned that until I understand the mechanics that are needed for that particular shot a little better, that I should only use this on people who aren't quite as thick. This leaves the alternative of structural attacks (knees, ankles, jaw, head). Even though we beat the crap out of each other and we're a little sore today, we each learned something new about our own abilities. Such events either give you more confidece in your abilities or show you what you need to work on, and if your smart it does both.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
I learned that until I understand the mechanics that are needed for that particular shot a little better, that I should only use this on people who aren't quite as thick. This leaves the alternative of structural attacks (knees, ankles, jaw, head).

Bravo..... Wise words thru experience!

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Thanks Dave,

All of these were pretty basic responses that I'm familiar with, but my point was to show me where these concepts were imperically researched or tested. Who are the keepers of the PDPR, Pre-Determined Pain Response book. Can I see how many real life situations they researched and interviewed recently to see how they came up with these "pre-determinations" or does it just "make sense" that they will react that way? Also I never mentioned the "exact" weapon, but you gave a general response for each which leads me to believe that they/you are just following the same generic non-updated beliefs....I'll give you an example below..

Respectfully, jb:asian:

Of course it makes sense that people will react that way...
Human beings haven't changed that much since the first poke in the eye was ever done.
Obviously there will always be exceptions to the rule, that's why we learn alternative options and follw up strikes and things like that, the just in cases and what ifs.

In regards to the solar plexus question I wasn't speaking of the sternum or the xiphoid process at the end of it. I was speaking of the solar plexus and how striking at different ranges, positions and angles (upward, downward, horizontal, circular, torqing, etc) and at various heights with various weapons (hammer, backfist, phoenix fist, middle knuckle, forearm, open hand, etc) and using various manuvers and principles to enter (backup mass, borrowed force, fitting strikes, speed, etc..) and other "considerations" affect that "pre-determined" outcome...

Actually your original question regarding the solar plexus was .....

...and is there a difference if your hit in the high vs low in the solar plexus?

Truthfully, the only position you can hit the solar plexus is low, because most of it is up behind the sternum. I would be interested to know how you would hit the solar plexus with your fore arm, unless you know someone who has one that sticks out...

Otherwise, you do raise a good point as to reactions to the different kinds of strikes, but I believe that the only way to get a different reaction would be to change direction. That is to say that I really don't think you would see a discernable difference between a hammer fist moving up on a 45 degree angle or a reverse elbow strike, but if you were to strike up with the hammer, and then use the pheonix eye downward on a 45deg angle, then yes! you would see a definate difference.

The thing is though, these reactions are still, Predetermined Pain Responses.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Well the idea of knowing what a person will do when they are struck in various ways is a god topic but unfortunately very, very complicated. When conceptually you rely wholly on pain as your predictor, absent what is called devastating blunt force trauma that in itself transfers significant kinetic energy to physically cause a bodily response, the answers are far less certain than perhaps we would like them to be.

This is one of the reasons pain induced control mechanisms should never be wholly relied upon for successful applications in favor of instead, anatomical based mandates of proper execution. Anytime you rely on pain, your technique is doomed to fail sooner or later. Whether it be in striking or manipulations of any kind.

Pain if induced should always be a vicarious byproduct of your actions as much as possible. Other wise movement becomes superficial and requires a reliance on soft tension blunt force trauma for effectiveness by simply devastating the target in self defense applications. Something anyone without skill or martial teachings can do.

Much of this is as a results of Sporting applications dominating American Martial Arts and the emphasis being placed on sport training techniques which typically require power, and strength.

Some of you, (like JB in his visits), have heard me talk about reading Positive and Negative Body Posture. Although complicated at first without reference, when put in context of a well designed "Default Technique" (what some call "ideal") it tends to work itself out with proper execution.

“There is no part of the human body that you can move without having a significant effect on another part of the body, and/or structural integrity. Also “how” you move adds additional factors to the equation in determining and predicting the actual outcome and end result of your actions. This is why your actions should be designed around other than “pain reliant applications.”

The totally of the posture, weight distribution, mental focus, breathing, various tensions, even the direction you’re looking, and even the time of day can significant change the results. The predictor is built into the reading of the posture that should be built into the “Default Technique.” This may or may not include a nerve cavity.

Put someone in a good “Horse Stance.” Feet parallel, weight evenly distributed, left hand hanging dead weight to your left side. Place their left hand palm inward over the “solar plexus / zyphoid process.”

As the person breathes naturally strike the person when they exhale on front of head of the shoulder on the side where the arm is hanging. Not too hard but enough to cause a physical reaction and take note.

Then turn the hand on the solar plexus just one quarter turn so that the thumb edge of the hand is resting against the “solar plexus / zyphoid process,” palm facing the ground and strike again with the same force. The reaction should be much greater with the same force.

Understand I’m not there to check the posture so you may have to play with it, but you will find that a simple turn of the hand has a significant impact on the effectiveness of the simple strike to head of the shoulder.

I’m suggesting the strike be administered on the “exhale” because the myth is that “kiai like” breathing will negate to a certain extent the effects. The truth is that is only a small part of the equation.

How many times have you sparred with someone and got in a really good “body shot” that you thought would “drop” the person to their knees, and they just continued like nothing happened? Than perhaps on another occasion you were playing around and “tapped’ someone with what you perceived was a “light” hit and they drop. So what was the difference? E) “All of the above.” and the right answer is always, "It depends."

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Doc
"It depends."

This was the most important thing I learned in Honors Biology II in High School.

I was going to mention it here.

But Doc is always talking about assumption of failure so I thought maybe we should illuminate our training habits a bit. Here is some of the stuff that I've learned/observed in training:

1. Mr. Duffy will commonly exert a little extra force on part of a technique when teaching it for the first time to show you what the expected reaction should be. I have "reacted properly" several times to his executing a techique. I've seen him do it to others and I've taught this way myself. This one example might be Pain Compliance, but recently I was teaching Grasp of Death and the armbar Dropped the attacker to her knees. She then "got it" and now she loves that technique and the armbar. I don't know if it is just that move, but if you hit it right I'm not sure that I've seen it fail. By this I mean that if you "hit it wrong" so that the armbar does not send your opponents head racing to the ground, Mr. Duffy in particular can come over and make it work like it is supposed to by "hitting it right" if you see what I mean.

2. Last weekend Mr. Planas demonstrated this with Flashing Wings. He said that the elbow below the Scapula is there to rock their head back so you could more easily handsword the neck. I tested it with 2 partners at "medium-slow" and it worked as advertised.

3. Mr. Planas went on to discuss Major and Minor strikes. On a few Techniques, including Flashing Wings, he said the Minor Strikes are there to set up the Major strike which Mr. Parker intended to "end the fight." He said the first elbow in Flashing Wings is a Major strike to stand them up, but the next 3 strikes are Minor to set up the "wind up" final blow which should put them away. He also briefly discussed "the speed man" and how you can not "hit" someone 20 times a second. Mr. Planas says that you can "touch" them, but you can't "hit" them because if you "hit" him twice then maybe there was something wrong with your first hit that failed to bring him down.

4. I know this may make it seem like Flashing Wings is a Model for Assumption of Failure because it has 2 Major strikes. I may have that wrong, but here is my take on this as well. Very often when Sparring or when doing Technique lines or something similar I will use a piece of technique depending on where I'm at. I think that the "Overskill" part of a technique is that it gives you 2-3+ "positions" to strike from so that whenever you find yourself in one of these "positions" you have experience with what to do. Mr. Duffy says that you should almost Never be able to finish a technique on someone. I have interpreted this "Overskill" stuff to be basically a 64 Box of Crayons. When I'm "coloring" I'm not going to use them all at once. I will pull out Green for a Turtle, White for a Cloud, Black for Doc's gi. It does not matter what part of the box the crayon came from, it is a crayon and you use the one you need. Even if you use a broken crayon!

I see the Overskill idea as being a way to teach us "less techniques" because I'd rather have one technique with 8 moves in it that I can pick apart and use whenever I need to than learn 4 techniques with 2 moves each that I have to later on learn how to "graft" together.

I also see Grafting as putting parts of techniques together, not putting whole techniques together.

Based on the above I don't think Doc and I are thinking the same when he discusses Assumption of Failure (at least). Also, I think this Grafting concept (the way I think of it) is Very useful in Multiple Attacker Scenarios because in Drills I have done some of a technique on one person and changed my angle to do another part of a technique on someone else. I'm not sure if I've ever "split" one technique to work on 2 attackers.

So if you don't "check" your opponents reactions in class, you are missing something. On occasion, I'll do a technique on a stone statue and stop and ask "Really? That does not work?" and then do it a bit harder until I get it.

This post is already too long, but here is an example of this. One night several of us from at least 2 different schools were doing techniques, they were actually just attacking me in preparation for my testing, I did 600 reps that day... On one guy I was doing Gift of Destruction "nicely" and one of the guys from the other school said "That won't work" but I assured him that it would. So finally I did it again and though I think I misjudged the knee perhaps, I kneed the attacker in the groin and dropped him straight to the floor. You could probably hear his cup echo outside the house. So I "knew" that would "work" but now I "know" even better. True, I didn't get to finish the technique, but that is a good sign.

So I don't see Overkill=Assumption of Failure, I see it as "Running the Table" in Billiards. If there are only 2 balls on the table, do you get to "run the table" like you would like to from the breaK? No. But do those very same skills come in handy and allow you to sink the 2 shots that are left? Yes. That is how I see it.

I put this up because I don't think everyone sees it like this judging from the posts. So that is my contribution to "lets try this on some guys and see if it works." Mr. Planas got Flashing Wings working very well on me by the way.
:asian:

PS Yeah, like I need a PS. But I was also a dummy for Mr. Speakman for the entire intermediate seminar in 1998 and All of his strikes worked. I've been a dummy enough to see that most of our techniques work like they should, and if they don't because the guy is on drugs or is 300lbs with 2% bodyfat or whatever, then you have your "overskill" to carry you through. I don't think Doc means that his stuff "never fails" do you Doc? I assume you mean that it "fails less than Motion Kenpo." Otherwise you must have a 120lb girl over there who can drop Mike Tyson and I will be selling the rest of my things to move out and train with you by Saturday.

No disrespect, but I wanted to ask you this along this train of thought.
:asian:

 

[Doc]

I know this may make it seem like Flashing Wings is a Model for Assumption of Failure because it has 2 Major strikes.

Actually all of Flashing Wings movements are major, as I understand and use them. This is actually true for most techniques. when information is available.

I think that the "Overskill" part of a technique is that it gives you 2-3+ "positions" to strike from so that whenever you find yourself in one of these "positions" you have experience with what to do.

Our disagreement is a semantical one. I don’t call that “over-skill” which is a cute phrase created to excuse a great deal of ineffective “busy work.”

Mr. Duffy says that you should almost Never be able to finish a technique on someone.

Well said.

I have interpreted this "Overskill" stuff to be basically a 64 Box of Crayons. When I'm "coloring" I'm not going to use them all at once. I will pull out Green for a Turtle, White for a Cloud, Black for Doc's gi. It does not matter what part of the box the crayon came from, it is a crayon and you use the one you need. Even if you use a broken crayon!

Well that’s a good analogy, but if you can’t draw it doesn’t matter which crayon you use, it’s still bad.

I also see Grafting as putting parts of techniques together, not putting whole techniques together.

I’ll buy that for a dollar.

Based on the above I don't think Doc and I are thinking the same when he discusses Assumption of Failure (at least).

Like I said, semantical.

So I don't see Overkill=Assumption of Failure, I see it as "Running the Table" in Billiards.

Only if you can sink the balls. Theoretically if you are able to sink the last ball, you should have been able to sink the first one and therefore not get to the last ball to win the game.

I put this up because I don't think everyone sees it like this judging from the posts. So that is my contribution to "lets try this on some guys and see if it works." Mr. Planas got Flashing Wings working very well on me by the way.

PS Yeah, like I need a PS. But I was also a dummy for Mr. Speakman for the entire intermediate seminar in 1998 and All of his strikes worked. I've been a dummy enough to see that most of our techniques work like they should, and if they don't because the guy is on drugs or is 300lbs with 2% bodyfat or whatever, then you have your "overskill" to carry you through.

Well that’s the commercial version where you overwhelm your opponent with rapid fire strikes favoring soft tissue and joints. Kinda like that “crazy” kid in the 6th grade when he went off and the teacher had to drag him off another kid. He wasn’t skilled, just overwhelming in his approach. Body fat and weight should not matter, besides from your commercial perspective why wouldn’t you just stick your finger in his eye if he’s “300 pounds and 2% body fat?”

I don't think Doc means that his stuff "never fails" do you Doc? I assume you mean that it "fails less than Motion Kenpo."

No it fails less than those who don’t study properly. Motion Kenpo is effective and devastatingly so as much as any SL-4 interpretation, but it depends on whose teaching and doing. Most teachers aren’t very good, but that is a design flaw. SL-4 does allows a greater modulation of injury however, and gives more options than most and builds internal energy which is philosophically different.

Otherwise you must have a 120lb girl over there who can drop Mike Tyson and I will be selling the rest of my things to move out and train with you by Saturday.

Get your ticket.

My meaning of “assumption of failure” is the lie of “overskill” that many students learn piling move upon move and extensions grafted onto gaseous expansion, inserted and prefixed into something else that was deleted once but added back later as I rip his eys out with a two-finger hook…… and they haven’t learned a decent stance or block yet while continuing to get promoted and work on “kenpo sticks and knives.” I’ve done enough camps and seminars to know that maybe 5% that show up have a decent stance and basics. Basics seemed to be ignored by many in favor of learning “techniques” they can’t make work, and privately confide, “I’d never use that technique in the real world.”

What? You got to be kiddin’ me. This is supposed to be self defense. "Overskilled?" No way. More like overwhelmed. "This is how it goes, but you can do it this way or this way or you can drop this and do that, but becareful because what if he's just faking?" Please. No wonder they are confused. You tell a guy 20 ways to do something and he hasn't learned one yet that will work for him. No matter I need these techniques to promote. How much for that test again?

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Doc
Actually all of Flashing Wings movements are major, as I understand and use them. This is actually true for most techniques. when information is available.

Mr. Planas taught in his seminar that pretty much any "left-handed/weak side strike" is minor and some strong-side strikes are also minor if they didn't have any power to them. But that these were basically put in to set you up in a good position to "end the fight" with a good right-hand something. I know this looks like it relies on force more so than skill, but I'm sort of investigating this topic for my Black Belt Thesis and Form.

Our disagreement is a semantical one. I don’t call that “over-skill” which is a cute phrase created to excuse a great deal of ineffective “busy work.”

I'm not sure I know what you call "over-skill"

Well that’s a good analogy, but if you can’t draw it doesn’t matter which crayon you use, it’s still bad..”

I was rather proud of that one. But I used Crayons because I think of Kenpo more as coloring. You have some weapons that fit some targets and you put them where they go. Just like you color in a coloring book and use the proper colors where they go. That is what I meant. I expect that if I understand you correctly so far, you will next tell me that I don't know how to color. That's OK. I'm trying to learn. I know it is possible that you are just working from a "different page" than I am and I'm not trying to discount that at all. I'm just trying to relate my experience and figure out what you mean.

Like I said, semantical.

I can PM you because I'm not sure I understand the semantical difference. It still doesn't seem like we are only differing on vocabulary.

Only if you can sink the balls. Theoretically if you are able to sink the last ball, you should have been able to sink the first one and therefore not get to the last ball to win the game.”

Here is where I think I'm getting lost. If you watch a Billiards Championship on ESPN for example, I don't think (I watched several 9 Ball Championship games once, but have not watched one lately) that you will see everyone of these guys win on the break or run the table from the break. Sometimes you just can't do it no matter how good you are.

Even if they do, 9 Ball may be a good example, because sometimes you have to do some work to get to the 9 Ball. It may not be available off the bat so you have to "do some busy work" until you get to it and sink it.

In a technique situation this may mean that you want to drop the guy to your right, left or straight back or down depending on where you might want him to land. I'm thinking that in a Multiple Attacker situation you may want to drop him between you and your attacker if you can. I'm speculating of course because I've only experienced this a few times in sparring, never "for real."

Well that’s the commercial version where you overwhelm your opponent with rapid fire strikes favoring soft tissue and joints. Kinda like that “crazy” kid in the 6th grade when he went off and the teacher had to drag him off another kid. He wasn’t skilled, just overwhelming in his approach. Body fat and weight should not matter, besides from your commercial perspective why wouldn’t you just stick your finger in his eye if he’s “300 pounds and 2% body fat?”

I meant that when Mr. Speakman hit me, I reacted like he wanted/expected and there was nothing I could do about it. That is all I meant by that. I was talking about "Motion Kenpo" being able to illicit a precise/particular reaction.

And maybe I can't reach the big guys eyes, or I don't want to blind him. I mentioned body fat and weight because I'm suspicious that some of my stuff just flat out will not work on a 300lb guy who is all muscle. I don't think I have 1 technique that will take out a Pro Football running back. I will be bouncing off his muscle tissue and he won't feel any of my strikes. I mention this because this is one scenario where hyperextending the arm may not work. A chopping punch to the kidney or an elbow to the ribs may not work. I don't think for example that I could hit 22yr old Mike Tyson properly to drop him. Even if he were not defending.

No it fails less than those who don’t study properly. Motion Kenpo is effective and devastatingly so as much as any SL-4 interpretation, but it depends on whose teaching and doing. Most teachers aren’t very good, but that is a design flaw. SL-4 does allows a greater modulation of injury however, and gives more options than most and builds internal energy which is philosophically different.

Again at Mr. Planas' seminar I saw a few black belts who I didn't think could move, who didn't scare me, and whom I thought I could wipe out with little effort. I see someone like this at every seminar. I agree that there must be some guys out there teaching who are not teaching very good stuff. One of the guys at the seminar scared me. Something came up about "teaching hours" and he said that he had too many to count and I thought "how much damage has this guy done to the system/how many people has he taught to move like him?"

I see that you are onto something here that I am just not getting. But I like the philosophy of SL-4. It is similar to my Thesis topic/theme.
:asian:

Get your ticket.

You know. I'm going to want to see this stuff work like you say it works.

Is LAX the right place to fly into? Are picking me up, or do I need a car? What is the cheapest clean hotel near your studio? I can't move out there yet, but I think I can manage a trip sometime.

Basics seemed to be ignored by many in favor of learning “techniques” they can’t make work...You tell a guy 20 ways to do something and he hasn't learned one yet that will work for him....

I asked Mr. Planas something like this. I told him that just the day before the seminar I could have been in a 2 on 1 fight. So I thought about "OK, guy 1 is backed up to a wall, guy 2 is on my right. Do I KNOW a technique that will drop Guy 1 quickly, for SURE so I can position for Guy 2?"

I know a lot of techniques that will cripple someone, but I don't know if I know of any particular strikes that will drop someone without killing them or blinding them or maiming them. I think this is Bad. I think you agree and I want to see what you have worked out for this. My Thesis will move me in this direction, but I don't have many of these now.

You and Mr. Dillman seem to say "I know for Sure that I can drop a guy with 1-2 moves and he won't be crippled for life." This intrigues me because all I know for sure is that I can unload on someone and Maybe stun him and then Maybe reassess and go back to him and break stuff and maim him, but that is only if I have time and proper awareness. If I do 5 Swords on someone and delete the eye poke and go light on the back of the neck and he still comes at me, then next time I am going to break something(s) and this doesn't make any sense. There seems to be no middle. If he is about my size and strength I might be able to use a joint manipulation to drop and restrain him, but if he is bigger and stronger OR if his buddy is nearby, I may not be able to take that time.

OK. This is just about EVERYTHING I know about Kenpo. If I didn't make it clear, I know a lot of techniques where the guy drops or is crippled, or both at the end, but I do not know many blows or strikes that will produce "X" incapacitating effect and I think this is bad.

I mean I know that an uppercut to the solar plexis will likely bend the guy over, and take his breath and stop him, but other than that I can't think of anything I know which will stop someone without breaking something. Except of course that generically, if I hit a little guy, I may stun him.

Sifu Swan used to say that Martial Arts were developed to give the little guy an advantage over a bigger guy. But again, I don't think there is anything I can do to get Mr. LaBounty off of me if he came at me. I know stuff I'd try, but short of breaking or hyperextending (more likely) his knee, going for a broken rib or a soft/weak spot on the face (which is probably very well guarded) I don't think I have anything that is sure to work and with his skill level I don't think I have anything I could pull off.

My Thesis will also deal somewhat with making your stuff work on a larger opponent. After this project I'm going to look more closely into SL4 and whatnot.

I think I may have babbled too much like a moron so PM me if you have want me to keep going. I will be glad to see Doc Post or PM me either one.

Doc it looks like Southwest can get me out there and back in June for $169. I had not done the math but since your expertise is in line with my Thesis project (or vice-versa) it would be worth it for me to get out there and see what you have. I'll let you know when my form/techniques are done so I will have something to ask you about when I get there.

It looks like a flight may take me through Phoenix so maybe I can bribe Mr. C. meet me at the airport for a lesson while I'm between flights?

This has been a most valuable thread for me. Thanks to all. I was hoping to reply "quickly" while I'm at work and then look at the thread again later tonight, but it turns out that I was more thorough than I expected. I hope I read Doc's post closely enough.
:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Let me get this straight, You can't kick me out of kenpo if I can't play pool all that well? I've been in a pool before, does that count for anything?

Anyway,

Last weekend Mr. Planas demonstrated this with Flashing Wings. He said that the elbow below the Scapula is there to rock their head back so you could more easily handsword the neck. I tested it with 2 partners at "medium-slow" and it worked as advertised.

Then you better pray that everyone you meet overrotates like a mutha so that you can get far enough behind them to hit at the base of the scapula. If you were attacking someone, would you extend so far that you give your back to them? I should hope not, because once you do the fights just about over. One solution is an inward elbow on a sinking elliptical orbit, that makes contact in one of the two vital targets, one at a 45 degree angle from the front and the other at an 70-90 degree angle from the front (I'll let you try to find the exact location). This will cause the attacker to fold like a lawn chair ( I'm not sure why, but I've always liked that particular simile).

And if you are having a crappy day, or you haven't been praticing like you should be, we'll even let you use the rest of the technique to cover your butt until you can get your lazy self back to the school. Just kidding :shrug: sort of!!

Louis Pasteur--- "Chance favors the prepared mind."
You know........ the guy who discovered penicillin.

 

[Michael Billings]

I have enjoyed reading it through with you.

Doug, sometimes there is no doubt you will drop a guy in the first or second move. Heck, a block, properly executed, may and should end the fight right then, assuming you wait long enough for him to throw the attack.

I liked the expression coined by Edmund Jr., "Kenpo Fantasy". I do see it as impossible, or nearly so, to keep the opponent upright until I get to finish my extended technique. DARN, and I do so like that fantasy.

Have fun and train hard.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
...If you were attacking someone, would you extend so far that you give your back to them?

Sorry if I was too vague. Mr. Planas taught that in Flashing Wings:
1. Elbow #1 will straighten them up and send them back.
-He said lots of people think this will collapse them forward but it does not.

2. You are to do Elbow #1 on your way through them so that you "land" behind them with your elbow in position to do an Outward Horizontal Elbow below their scapula which will straighten them up and bring their head back.
-Maybe since you are going through them, this makes this first elbow a minor strike?

3. Then follow with the 2 handswords to the neck that slide down to check the arm as your right ends up "back in the South Forty" ready to deliver the "blow that will end the fight."

So from his punch we practiced making this worked. It worked when I was the dummy. It worked on the next guy Mr. Planas demonstrated Elbow #2 on, and it worked several times on my partner when I did it myself.

No, at no time does the attacker shoot past you. In fact, Mr. Planas also elaborated that most techniques don't work without additional inserts so that on the block you need to block through and punch him in the face to start him standing upright for the incoming elbow of yours. This may also give you 1 more second to get behind him and elbow him again, I can't remember.

I will try to get someone to do this technique on tonight in class. I think I discussed it with Mr. Duffy though on Tuesday last week and he didn't say "Wait, that won't work." So I'm pretty sure I had it straight right after the seminar on April 12.

I hope that makes more sense.
:asian:

Yes, Mr. Billings. Mr. Mills has some video clips on his website where his attacker drops after a vigorously executed Inward Block. I mention this in class frequently.

I know you know the story of Mr. Silva and Delayed Sword. I've told that on here sometimes. But like I said, even on you, I'm not sure I could drop you myself if I did a good, solid Hammering Inward Block on you during Delayed Sword. I don't know.

I have dropped people in class of course. One of my points was that most of my techniques have been taught to me as "here is the technique" with very little extra attention made as to how I could "purposefully" drop him early if I chose to do it.

I know they Might drop early, and they Should drop by the end of the technique, but I don't know that I consciously can drop someone with the first handsword to the neck on 5 Swords. While I've read about the location of pressure points and barometers and the carotid artery and how any or all of these may induce a "knockout" particularly when you strike at a downward 45 Degree angle, this type of information is not part of my learning 5 Swords.

Mr. Howard Purcell (?) once told a story at camp of how he did knock a guy out 3 times in a Shotokan tournament once with a front handsword but they didn't count his strikes "off the front hand" and his opponent went on to win the tournament. I've told that a few times as well.

I have to run, but I'll keep checking this thread. Thanks to everyone again of course.
:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by cdhall


I know you know the story of Mr. Silva and Delayed Sword. I've told that on here sometimes. But like I said, even on you, I'm not sure I could drop you myself if I did a good, solid Hammering Inward Block on you during Delayed Sword. I don't know.

Sure you could....

Originally posted by cdhall

I know they Might drop early, and they Should drop by the end of the technique, but I don't know that I consciously can drop someone with the first handsword to the neck on 5 Swords. While I've read about the location of pressure points and barometers and the carotid artery and how any or all of these may induce a "knockout" particularly when you strike at a downward 45 Degree angle, this type of information is not part of my learning 5 Swords.
:asian:

Good insight, but it doesn't mean it's not there or that your instructor doesn't know it. I'm sure he does. He may just teach it in the next evolution or phase once you've gotten to a particular point in your training.


jb:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Sure you could....



Good insight, but it doesn't mean it's not there or that your instructor doesn't know it. I'm sure he does. He may just teach it in the next evolution or phase once you've gotten to a particular point in your training.


jb:asian:

Well said JB, and I am waiting on dinner.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Doc
Well said JB, and I am waiting on dinner.

Roger that. I'll buy desert or bring the Vino if I'm invited. I'll have a bottle of Grape Nehi or IBC Black Cherry Soda for myself.


But I never said my instructors didn't know this stuff, it is just not how I was taught it. I started my first ramblings by trying to convey how I learned what and so on....

Now you Tell me that I can drop Mr. Billings... but where is the verifiable, 3rd Party, independent documentation...

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by cdhall
Roger that. I'll buy desert or bring the Vino if I'm invited. I'll have a bottle of Grape Nehi or IBC Black Cherry Soda for myself.

Fine by me. Seems I am one of the few seniors who digests no alcohol. Can you imagine how many people I'd piss off if I was a drinker too!:rofl:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Doc
Fine by me. Seems I am one of the few seniors who digests no alcohol. Can you imagine how many people I'd piss off if I was a drinker too!:rofl:

Non-drinker here as well,

But back to the subject...

But I never said my instructors didn't know this stuff, it is just not how I was taught it. I started my first ramblings by trying to convey how I learned what and so on....

Agreed, my thought is that he may have showed you in another application and the connection just wasn't made for you.

Now you Tell me that I can drop Mr. Billings... but where is the verifiable, 3rd Party, independent documentation...

I'm not telling you that he'd let you..lol. But he's a player so I think Mr. Billings would be on the mat to see if you got it. I'm not even speaking to your skills (as I told you when we talked tonight), I'm just saying that I know your instructor has provided you with the basics to accomplish this feat and that he focuses on the basics and proper execution.

jb:asian:

Well said JB, and I am waiting on dinner.

I'll drop you a personal email...

 

[Michael Billings]

... Feeling is believing.
-MB

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Doc
Fine by me. Seems I am one of the few seniors who digests no alcohol. Can you imagine how many people I'd piss off if I was a drinker too!:rofl:

Some people think you drink Drano, but that just a rumor right?

Just Kidding,
Billy :rofl: