The body's reaction to strikes

[Doc]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Personally I believe that each person WILL react differently to any strike. You may be able to kick one guy in the groin and him drop immediately, and you may do the same kick to another guy and he will just stand there and smile (probably before he commences to use you as a punching bag for a while). I have kicked someone in the groin before and he just winced a little and came after me (so much for one strike knockdown or out).
The good thing that I get out of Kenpo is that I don't believe that ANY ONE strike will have the intended effect on ANYONE. So therefore it makes me try to learn how to continue the flow of motion and Graft anything together that is necessary to complete the intended task. Me being a smaller guy, I can NEVER have the idea of one strike is all that is needed.
If they react to a strike the way I intend...great! If not, I hope I am prepared to work around that situation and still have the same effect on the opponent.
Everyone is different...some stronger some weaker...some luckier some not so lucky....

In commercial or motion based Kenpo that is called an, "Assumption of Failure." You have already concluded it won't work so you just rapidly move on to the next move. the problem is it's a slippery slope. If you weren't skilled enough to make the first couple of moves work, what makes you think the next two will?

 

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by Doc
Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked. What's up with that?

Come to think of it, so are mine, What is up with that?

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340
Come to think of it, so are mine, What is up with that?

Um, mine aren't come to think of it. "scratching my head." That's a little odd maybe I should go to the doctor or something. :rofl:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Um, mine aren't come to think of it. "scratching my head." That's a little odd maybe I should go to the doctor or something. :rofl:

Is that "Ball Challenged?"

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Um, mine aren't come to think of it. "scratching my head." That's a little odd maybe I should go to the doctor or something. :rofl:

I'm guessing there was no pun intended...huh?

jb:rofl:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
I'm guessing there was no pun intended...huh?

jb:rofl:

No, none at all guys. I was just trying to joke with you all here.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
Is that "Ball Challenged?"

I only wish that was the problem:rofl: . Actually 3 kids later and well I think I hit all 3 on the first shot. No practice and then many doctor/hospital bills later. That's another story.

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Doc
Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked. What's up with that?

Mine are too, and neither have I!!!! Now YOU tell Me what's up with that!!!! Or is it all the Tracy's I've been doing all these years?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Doc
Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked.

That is just way too much information!:lol:
May I suggest you seek out a good MD? :rofl:

 

[JD_Nelson]

Doc,

With all your posts and how informing they are..........


THAT was too much information.


Sincerely

JD


ps. I have been reading the forums for about a yeahr and a half now and i almost had a no touch knock out from laughter!!!


Thanks for the laugh. I am almost tempted to use that as a quote for each of my posts. Giving you credit of course!!

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Doc
In commercial or motion based Kenpo that is called an, "Assumption of Failure." You have already concluded it won't work so you just rapidly move on to the next move. the problem is it's a slippery slope. If you weren't skilled enough to make the first couple of moves work, what makes you think the next two will?

Maybe the first move will work. If it does, GREAT! If not, and you have trained that the first move WILL work....then what? Wait until you get hit then try that first move again? Maybe it will work the next time?
There are no guarantees...no matter who you are.

 

[Jill666]

At least there were'nt any allusions to "blue balls".

Re: moves not working...

Well it's good to have a certain assumption of failure I suppose so when the guy does not drop to his knees howling with pain, you do not freeze. Just last night my training partner told a story where he was kicked full in the nuts and didn't drop- but he was pretty enraged and beat the crap out of the offender.

I'd rather take out the knee if I can, in as crippling a fashion as possible. Then ribs, jaw, nose, hmmm...

The one time I got grabbed from behind I went into "Rotating Destruction". First blow, elbow to nose. After that crunch, he dropped to his knees, yes, howling with pain. I didn't get to do the rest of the technique. I guess it doesn't work, huh?:samurai:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Maybe the first move will work. If it does, GREAT! If not, and you have trained that the first move WILL work....then what? Wait until you get hit then try that first move again? Maybe it will work the next time?
There are no guarantees...no matter who you are.

The problem is the "Assumption of Failure" becomes a crutch. "If it doesn't work, I'll just move on." Students should be taught effective applications first. In our curriculum they are taught to "Survive The Initial Assault."™ If you can't make the first move reasonably successful, there is no reason to learn the next application in that technique. Unfortunately most teach techniques "as a unit," and then confuse the crap out of students by sharing infinite "what if scenarios" before they have learned anything at all. An application is no better than it weakest link, especially if it's that first move. If you are not effective immediately, you won't get to the rest no matter how "skilled" you think you are.

Part of this problem in the commercial arena is created by voluminous material, and impatient students who pressure teachers for "more material" for advancement, creating a "quantity over quality" atmosphere. Instructors who are concerned about the impact on their revenue stream must retain students and promote within what the student sometimes feels is a "reasonable" time.

Someone coined the phrase "not overkill, but over skilled." Ed Parker laughed about that one and even used it himself to defend his motion concept even though he didn't really subscribe to its off-the-cuff philosophy. Parker used to say, "Actually, if you were truly skilled, you wouldn't need all those moves. If you get to the end of some of these techniques, you should give up kenpo and study track."

In our "Assumption of Success" concept, the student is simply not allowed to accept unsuccessful execution in the initial stages of an application (within reason for course level), therefore the technique is "built" section by section to be successful.

Of course no one is perfect, but by our curriculum design, all applications at all stages must be successful, and as your skill level rises as you move up in course material, you should need less and less of the mechanisms (of most applications) to terminate a situation. However anyone can have a "bad day" and should that occur the entire successfully proven mechanism is still available.

The difference is a "mindset" based on "success" first, and "failure" second, supported by instruction that supports that perspective. I've seen too many students (and vicariously their teachers) with no understanding of basic stances, footwork, and blocks, executing lengthy techniques that have less of a chance of success than some untrained "street" person. Unfortunately, this is not just in "Kenpo," but in Americanized Commercial Martial Arts in general.

I did a lecture for a very successful organization where I asked everyone to "step back into a fighting stance with your right foot forward and block with your right hand, a left roundhouse punch to your head, (setting up "Sword of Destruction) without telling them anything else. Everyone had a different interpretation of the "stance," and not one "blocked" in the same manner as another. Yet when I said do "Sword of Destruction," they were stepping, blocking, kicking, chopping, and covering like mad making menacing faces with matching kiai's. Not one of them moved the same way. Oh by the way, the ranks went all the way up to 5th degree.

The first thing visitors to our main campus learn, is everyone moves in the same manner, (you know like in the old Chinese movies with 300 people in a outdoor class training in unison). There is a reason for that. "Assumption of Success."

 

[GaryM]

As is seen by the posts in this thread there is no standard response to any given strike. There was a miner in Australia near the turn of the last century that had a 1 inch iron tamping rod blowen through his head. It entered under his chin and exited out the top of his head. He recovered and was funtcional in less than a month and lived for several years more. (Never returned to work, it changed his personality and made him paranoid and delusional and he eventually went insane). Blows are cumulative in effect. The punch that knocks out the boxer in the 12 th round may only have momentarily stunned him in the first round. Which brings us to the pressure points. The stated effects that striking a point in a certain direction has are not absolutes by anymeans. But there WILL be an effect. The brain is linear in it's thinking. It handles one "thought" at a time. The pressure points are receptors that send messages to the brain. Weather or not the brain acts upon these messages or to what extent is not what is REALLY important to the martial artist. What IS important is that the brain has to 'take the message'. Kind of like when you wait thru a long line and when you get to the clerk they have to keep stopping to answer the phone, even if they ignore the message they still stopped taking care of you. Most of the vital points are effected by or have effects on other points. Example : Percardium 6 located about a palms width above the crease in the wrist (inner arm) is sort of a universal 'set up' point that makes all other points more vulnerable. Stomach 9 is located level with the Adam's apple over the cartoid artery. This is probably the closest thing to a 'gauranteed' KO point and is very capable of killing. ( It is even a delayed death point being that a hard blow with adverse qi can rupture the lining of the artery causing it to deteriorate and if a piece travels to the brain it can cause an anuerism, or so I've read). There is a baroreceptor here that the brain uses to monitor the blood pressure. A blow to this point causes the brain to think that there is life threatening high blood pressure and it shuts down the heart, causing loss of conscience(KO). There are three set up points for St 9. Percardium 6, heart 5 and lung 8. You can cover all three with your hand at the same time. Thus you see blocking a punch with an inward block at the wrist followed by a shuto (chop) to the neck is devestating, as in delayed sword. So the block to Pc6 makes the message from the groin area kick more urgent and the groin area kick (Cv 2 3 or 4) makes the brain 'answer the phone' for a brief instant, then the shuto to St 9 turns the lights out. Of course this is in addition to the obvious physical effects, such as the block keeping you from getting hit in the mush and the kick stopping the forward progress by thrusting the hips back, ect, etc. The combinations that work well and are practicle in a given situation are contained in the techniques of Kenpo .
Disclaimer: maybe I'm full of s**t. Gary

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by GaryM
As is seen by the posts in this thread there is no standard response to any given strike. There was a miner in Australia near the turn of the last century that had a 1 inch iron tamping rod blowen through his head. It entered under his chin and exited out the top of his head. He recovered and was funtcional in less than a month and lived for several years more. (Never returned to work, it changed his personality and made him paranoid and delusional and he eventually went insane). Blows are cumulative in effect. The punch that knocks out the boxer in the 12 th round may only have momentarily stunned him in the first round. Which brings us to the pressure points. The stated effects that striking a point in a certain direction has are not absolutes by anymeans. But there WILL be an effect. The brain is linear in it's thinking. It handles one "thought" at a time. The pressure points are receptors that send messages to the brain. Weather or not the brain acts upon these messages or to what extent is not what is REALLY important to the martial artist. What IS important is that the brain has to 'take the message'. Kind of like when you wait thru a long line and when you get to the clerk they have to keep stopping to answer the phone, even if they ignore the message they still stopped taking care of you. Most of the vital points are effected by or have effects on other points. Example : Percardium 6 located about a palms width above the crease in the wrist (inner arm) is sort of a universal 'set up' point that makes all other points more vulnerable. Stomach 9 is located level with the Adam's apple over the cartoid artery. This is probably the closest thing to a 'gauranteed' KO point and is very capable of killing. ( It is even a delayed death point being that a hard blow with adverse qi can rupture the lining of the artery causing it to deteriorate and if a piece travels to the brain it can cause an anuerism, or so I've read). There is a baroreceptor here that the brain uses to monitor the blood pressure. A blow to this point causes the brain to think that there is life threatening high blood pressure and it shuts down the heart, causing loss of conscience(KO). There are three set up points for St 9. Percardium 6, heart 5 and lung 8. You can cover all three with your hand at the same time. Thus you see blocking a punch with an inward block at the wrist followed by a shuto (chop) to the neck is devestating, as in delayed sword. So the block to Pc6 makes the message from the groin area kick more urgent and the groin area kick (Cv 2 3 or 4) makes the brain 'answer the phone' for a brief instant, then the shuto to St 9 turns the lights out. Of course this is in addition to the obvious physical effects, such as the block keeping you from getting hit in the mush and the kick stopping the forward progress by thrusting the hips back, ect, etc. The combinations that work well and are practicle in a given situation are contained in the techniques of Kenpo .
Disclaimer: maybe I'm full of s**t. Gary

Not completely. But you must execute from proper anatomical mechanics as well as create the proper Negative Posture to create the proper involuntary response that makes applications function without pain being a factor.

The movements are contained in kenpo, but "how" is not, and never has been codified.

 

[bob919]

against someone on pcp none of those will work all that well trust me kicks in the balls to nothing except make him jump a foot or so i also through a very powerful puch to the solar plexus i missed broke his sternum (big crack) and he flew a little waybut he kept coming he was breathing very heavily so i struck him in the plexus a couple of times with the pheonix fist then ran; cause a fight like this would only end with me killing him or vice versa. also this guy was about 300lbs but he was so amazingly strong i think it was cause of pcp but that was the worst fight i have been in far,far worse than 2 on1 3on 1 or even 4 on 1

moral of the story: get yourself some pcp

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by bob919
against someone on pcp none of those will work all that well

None of what YOU know works all that well.

 

[Jill666]

It's true that pcp, along with adrelaline, is a great anesthetic, but if you need to stop someone, you must go as far as is necessary. They might not feel pain then, but you cannot walk on a smashed knee; you cannot punch with a broken arm.

If it isn't absolutely necessary and you try to take on someone who's high & out of control, well you asked for it.

 

[TLH3rdDan]

hummm i guess no one liked my idea except seig... well if i have any luck getting a group together ill let you guys know the results

 

[Arithon]

There are known reactions to strikes but the degree of response will always vary from person to person.

I know the response for some strikes because I have been hit and hit others with these strikes in training.

About the ST9 strike, it is supposed to work against people who are high.

I think there is a big difference between preparing for failure and expecting failure. When you strike you make sure you are in a position to strike again. Simply thinking that you've trained hard and therefore the strike must work first time every time is going to get you hurt.