It's a control issue.

[ikenpo]

Given that we've talked technique lines and touching people...

Just wondering what the philosophy on control was among the instructors present? (if you have one) Do you follow it as well? How do you enforce it? Have you ever gone a little too far? For the others what do you think your instructor's position on control is? Has he clearly stated it? Does he follow his owe rules on control?

jb

 

[JD_Nelson]

Given that we've talked technique lines and touching people...

Just wondering what the philosophy on control was among the instructors present? (if you have one) Do you follow it as well? How do you enforce it? Have you ever gone a little too far? For the others what do you think your instructor's position on control is? Has he clearly stated it? Does he follow his owe rules on control?

jb

As a student, I feel like as a class we tend to warm up in power. Althouhg note really ever reprimended, I have at times been asked to lighten up. I dont feel like I am trying to pound on people, but I just like to hit. I dont mind being hit either. I like to test my own pain threshold. There are certain techniques I do not like to have done to me because I always end up at the chiropractor a couple of days afterward. Grip of death just tends to wrench my neck around enough to take everything out of alignment. I do think that this exposure has also helped me to better control my own power in a technique line as well. I can FEEL how effective it is on me so I try not to overkill any tech because of my own fears of being injured.


Sincerely

JD

 

[Michael Billings]

It has to be enforced and carefully monitored. There is too much risk of serious bodily injury without external controls initially. As the student progresses they learn to judge the opponent's range of motion, pain threshold, or vital targets, and limit the force that can be applied without permanent injury. We are not talking about bumps and bruises ... those are usually ok, and heavy bags are for full contact, but you have to teach control, with focus, and power simultaneously.

-Michael
AKTS

 

[Jill666]

My instructor uses good control. As a class we all know each other's limitations and current injuries, and who can take a hit where, so it's rarely an issue.

For example, I can take quite a solid punch to the gut, but having had a dislocated jaw, the jaw and temple contact is avoided by my peers.

In the advanced class (blue-brown) there were two guys who would not back down or temper their attack, and both ened up with broken digits. :shrug: Both were brown belts when I joined the class, and both are brown belts as I am in the black belt class. 'Nuff said.

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
It has to be enforced and carefully monitored. There is too much risk of serious bodily injury without external controls initially. As the student progresses they learn to judge the opponent's range of motion, pain threshold, or vital targets, and limit the force that can be applied without permanent injury. We are not talking about bumps and bruises ... those are usually ok, and heavy bags are for full contact, but you have to teach control, with focus, and power simultaneously.

-Michael
AKTS

My sentiments, exactly!:asian:

 

[Seig]

I extoll the virtues of control and am quick to point out and to use it as a teaching tool. However, occassionally I get a knucklehead that just won't listen........
Whatever the attitude, so is the response.

 

[Quick Sand]

The people in my class and usually pretty good about control with one or two exceptions but my problem is sometimes the instructor. He's a pretty big guy and I really don't think he knows how strong he is. He'll also get explaining things and get distracted. Last night he was doing a wrist lock on me to show it to another student and when I tapped he didn't let go. He was talking and actually wrenched it on harder. Luckily I have really flexible wrists so I'm not actually hurt but my wrist is still a little sore this morning. I'm not really impressed. :shrug:

 

[Les]

A key factor here is that everyone is different. What is a hard shot for one student may feel like nothing to another.

The way we approach it in our school is that you have to communicate with your training partner.

If you are geting shots that are a bit too hard, just say to that person, ' Ease up a bit will you'

Alternately, you might want to ask someone else to 'Put a bit more effort into the shot'

It can sometimes be hard to balance control and safety with preparing the body to 'take the punishment' in a real situation, but safety and common sense should always prevail.

If my Instructor was going too hard on me I'd sure as hell tell him to ease up. If I ever go too hard on a student, I'd expect, and want him to say something to me.

It's the Instructors responsibility to ensure that his class is run safely, but common sense should tell anyone to speak up if they are suffering.

If you end up training with someone who wont ease up when you ask him, speak to your Instructor after the class. If your Instructor can't resolve the situation, see your schools Chief Instructor.

To go off on a tangent, a while back I was having one of my students show a palm heel to the chest (on me), and she wasn't putting much power into it. I said to her, 'You're not stroking the cat, do it again and put a bit more effort into it'

Just after I got the searing pain in my chest I remembered she was wearing a splint on her wrist that had a metal support....

Next time I'll think before I ask her to turn up the power.

Les

 

[Brother John]

There are different types of control:
1. No physical contact.
2. Physical contact, barely...very surface.
3. Depth-contact, w/in pain/damage boundaries.
4. Depth-contact...NO speed. Full hit, slow-mo.
5. Pain-contact, w/in damage but NOT pain boundaries.

#1: No physical contact. Though many schools espouse this form of control... I DO NOT. I believe 100% that you will respond the way that you train = therefore people that don't make contact are getting very good at missing!!!!

#2: Better, but still missing.

#3: Best! This is where my club tries to keep things MOST of the time.

#4: Descent. Good for learning proper mechanics and trajectory of force at-in-through our attackers anatomy w/out the damage of acceleration.

#5: CAREFUL. Can go there from time to time... but both must agree and be supervised!!!

Just my thoughts and how my students train.
Your Brother
John

 

[Les]

Originally posted by Brother John
No physical contact. Though many schools espouse this form of control... I DO NOT. I believe 100% that you will respond the way that you train = therefore people that don't make contact are getting very good at missing!!!!

This is what I tell the beginners (abridged version);

When you are here you have no enemies, only training partners.

I don't want you to damage each other (because I need you to come back next week so I can pay the rent), but I have to teach you reality.

If you always do this (the technique) gently, then in a real life situation thats the only way you'll be able to do it.

So I want you to BLOCK HARD. Then do the rest of the technique with lots of control.

If you ever have to use something like this in a real, stress filled situation, you'll automatically BLOCK HARD. Then your subconscious will kick in and say 'Woah, this bas***d is really trying to hurt me' and you'll be able to turn the power up for the rest of the technique.

Les

 

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Kenpoists,

I think "control" is very, very important! Not only does it help lessen the chance of injury in the dojo, but I think it also teaches the student (and for that matter the instructor) the importance of being able to assess the situation and the amount of force that is needed.

If one is out of control, they might resort to physical contact at all times, when in some cases physical confrontation could have been avoided.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

 

[Brother John]

If one is out of control, they might resort to physical contact at all times, when in some cases physical confrontation could have been avoided.

True. I agree that a martial artist must Always be in "control".
I'm not talking about abandoning 'control', but the level to which you emphasize control... no contact, limited contact or further.
Safety must be the parameters and absence of "pain" a guide, but w/out some contact.... we get very good at missing. Gauging our depth and angle become automatic and we will pull off in combat what we do the most in training..... miss.

As Mr. Hancock says: "whatever you do the most IS the basis of your art."

thanks for hearing me out...
Your Brother
John

 

[Jill666]

I've noticed as time goes by there are kinds of pain I can take, but when a joint is over-stressed and injury is imminent, I have learned to recognize that kind of pain to tap out IMMEDIATELY. But that took a while to figure out.

Remember the days when we'd grimace through a joint lock saying "that don't hurt" and then ice & ace wrap for four days after?

:asian: Now I'm older & wiser. OK, maybe just older

 

[Jill666]

Great quote!!!!

 

[True2Kenpo]

Originally posted by Brother John
True. I agree that a martial artist must Always be in "control".
I'm not talking about abandoning 'control', but the level to which you emphasize control... no contact, limited contact or further.
Safety must be the parameters and absence of "pain" a guide, but w/out some contact.... we get very good at missing. Gauging our depth and angle become automatic and we will pull off in combat what we do the most in training..... miss.

As Mr. Hancock says: "whatever you do the most IS the basis of your art."

thanks for hearing me out...
Your Brother
John

Brother John,

I agree with you. Great point!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

 

[ken_loc]

I agree control is needed, but contact is also a necessity. Technique lines are to help a student learn how to execute a technique on a real body. If a student is always taught to hit lightly or to not make contact at all then when he/her has to actually use that technique, they are going to fight exactly like they train. Like wise if a student is never hit how will he or she react to being cold cocked in the street. Then where is the martial(war) aspect of their art.

ooss :asian:

 

[Brother John]

I agree control is needed, but contact is also a necessity.

they are going to fight exactly like they train

It deserved being said again.
I agree J.B.
It's one of the things that gets impressed into my mind when I have a new student and "initiate" them into a good, high spirited, technique line. True, they may only be doing the first few techs as that's all they may have at that point, but the punches/kicks...what-haveyou, aren't politely going out wide, they are aimed at their targets and the speed of the strikes and tempo of the line increase with ability.... to watch them respond is interesting. You can tell the students who've either trained in other arts that made contact OR those who did such sports as wrestling/football/basketball... where sharp body contact is made. These students tend to EAT UP the tech-line work; whereas the generally unathletic neophyte responds with ether shocked rigidity or wild flinging panic. ((Not that we make their first several times in the tech-line a "baptism by Fire".... that's later.))
I agree wholeheartedly J.B., If you don't know how to make contact and project force along the correct path... your techs WILL be slap-happy at best. BUT if you do know how to make contact (through experience) then your techs will be executed with the insight and ingrained ability of proper training.
Likewise, if you a solid slap in the face phases you, or a sharp shot to the solar-plexus stuns you... a streetfighter will eat you up.

Say "Hi" to Brian for me next time you see him in class. He's a good man.

Your Brother
John

 

[Kirk]

Does it feel like a heavy slap to anyone? When I get wailed on
(with control) it feels like a heavy handed slap! It lights my skin
on fired, but nothing beneath the skin. Do you get used to that?

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Kirk
Does it feel like a heavy slap to anyone? When I get wailed on
(with control) it feels like a heavy handed slap! It lights my skin
on fired, but nothing beneath the skin. Do you get used to that?

The Goldendragon hit me in the throat! I didn't say a word, cause I couldn't speark!

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
The Goldendragon hit me in the throat! I didn't say a word, cause I couldn't speark!

Must be you then.