That's a lot of forms

[Kung Fu Wang]

Forms are done solo. You can do an exact copy of the technique or a stylized version.

Today, my solo drill is the partner drill without partner.

And you can always add more performance elements.

Why do you want to do that for. The performance has no part in combat.

 

[skribs]

Everything start to make sense now. In your mind, your master's wish is more important than your wish.

As an instructor, I am his subordinate. It is his dojang, his curriculum, and his rules I must follow. I do some things a little bit different, but for the most part my job is to be a tool and a resource for him to use to execute his curriculum.
If I challenge this and do things my own way, I'm creating dysfunction in the dojang.

As a student, I am learning what he teaches. If I get to the point where I feel like I've stagnated, then I'll bring it up. As it stands, I'm learning plenty from him, so I have no room to complain. Classes have 15-20 people in them, so I can't make the class all about what I want to learn. I've trusted in his methods so far and its gotten me where I am, so I'll keep trusting him that his curriculum will give me what I need to progress.

 

[skribs]

Why do you want to do that for. The performance has no part in combat.

Fun, entertainment, advertisement, exercise, expression, there's tons of reasons.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fun, entertainment, advertisement, exercise, expression, there's tons of reasons.

The performance can be a 2 edged sword. Many years ago (1977) I gave a MA demonstration in Austin local TV station. I did a "Little tiger and swallow" form. The TV reporter said, "Kung Fu is like dancing ..." Even today, I still hate that comment.

 

[skribs]

The performance can be a 2 edged sword. Many years ago (1977) I gave a MA demonstration in Austin local TV station. I did a "Little tiger and swallow" form. The TV reporter said, "Kung Fu is like dancing ..." Even today, I still hate that comment.

Man, you'd really hate Capoiera then.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't understand this, and maybe you could explain it to me. If forms are a teaching tool, then what are they doing if they're only teaching things you're already supposed to know?

They are a drill, for repetition. You may have learned the technique before you see it in a form, or the form may be the first time you see the technique. The form may have the same technique done under several different movement circumstances. But regardless, it is a tool for repetition, which builds skill with the technique. In my opinion, you should view it as something like hitting the heavy bag. It is not something you do once, or you take one lesson from. Rather, it is something you do over and over, over time, to develop skill, which is a gradual progress.

 

[Flying Crane]

Man, you'd really hate Capoiera then.

I don’t hate capoeira. But I do hate how it is mischaracterized as a dance.

 

[Flying Crane]

The Shorin-ryu folks at the school where I teach have a bajillion forms. I think I counted 14 weapon forms. I don't understand how a person can develop usable skill if they have to spend that much time or rote repetition.

14 weapons forms, for how many different weapons? Is each form for a different weapon, or does each weapon have several forms?

 

[Flying Crane]

To me, that's a "long form" - about the same length as the 5 forms I teach. ("Short forms" to me are like what some styles call "one steps".)

Long form? Have you seen the video I recently posted? Chuit Yap Bo Kuen. That is a long form.

 

[skribs]

They are a drill, for repetition. You may have learned the technique before you see it in a form, or the form may be the first time you see the technique. The form may have the same technique done under several different movement circumstances. But regardless, it is a tool for repetition, which builds skill with the technique. In my opinion, you should view it as something like hitting the heavy bag. It is not something you do once, or you take one lesson from. Rather, it is something you do over and over, over time, to develop skill, which is a gradual progress.

But if I've been drilling them already for several belts, what does this new drill accomplish that the old ones did not?

 

[skribs]

I don’t hate capoeira. But I do hate how it is mischaracterized as a dance.

I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of it.

 

[Flying Crane]

But if I've been drilling them already for several belts, what does this new drill accomplish that the old ones did not?

I don’t know your forms, so I cannot comment specifically on them.

However, from my own experience, I will say this: we drill our techniques on a fundamental level, sort of in a void, without distractions. That is the easiest way to do them, and develops their foundations without distractions.

We also drill our techniques within the context of moving, which is more challenging than doing them on their most fundamental level. The movement is a distraction, it includes transitions and stepping and is more challenging in terms of keeping the foundation strong in that context.

We also do forms, which contain the techniques within the context of combinations of other techniques and other kinds of movements. This is more challenging yet, as the combinations and the wider variety of movement provide for more distractions and more transitions, and you work on keeping every technique with the foundations as strong as you can, within that dynamic context.

This is a progression which, when done together, improve your skills over time. It also serves to give you a wider vision of what is possible with the different techniques. They do not contain all possibilities, that would be impossible. But they give you enough variety that you begin to understand the range of what is possible, and your own use can become spontaneous and creative.

And we keep drilling at every level, from the most basic level to the moving level to the forms level. Just because we train forms does not mean that we stop drillin the lower levels. Reinforcement is always appropriate and necessary.

 

[skribs]

I don’t know your forms, so I cannot comment specifically on them.

However, from my own experience, I will say this: we drill our techniques on a fundamental level, sort of in a void, without distractions. That is the easiest way to do them, and develops their foundations without distractions.

We also drill our techniques within the context of moving, which is more challenging than doing them on their most fundamental level. The movement is a distraction, it includes transitions and stepping and is more challenging in terms of keeping the foundation strong in that context.

We also do forms, which contain the techniques within the context of combinations of other techniques and other kinds of movements. This is more challenging yet, as the combinations and the wider variety of movement provide for more distractions and more transitions, and you work on keeping every technique with the foundations as strong as you can, within that dynamic context.

This is a progression which, when done together, improve your skills over time. It also serves to give you a wider vision of what is possible with the different techniques. They do not contain all possibilities, that would be impossible. But they give you enough variety that you begin to understand the range of what is possible, and your own use can become spontaneous and creative.

And we keep drilling at every level, from the most basic level to the moving level to the forms level. Just because we train forms does not mean that we stop drillin the lower levels. Reinforcement is always appropriate and necessary.

You can do all of that without forms. I'd argue even better without forms, because you're not limited to one footwork or one combination.

 

[Flying Crane]

You can do all of that without forms. I'd argue even better without forms, because you're not limited to one footwork or one combination.

Yes, you can.

Some people do not like forms, and they have a lot of derision for them. I always say you don’t need them so if you do not like them you should practice a method that does not use them. Other methods can work just as well.

I find forms to be a useful approach. Our forms are long, they contain combinations and variety that I would not come up with myself. If I was taught that variety as separate segments, outside the context of a form, I would need to keep a list in order to remember to practice them all. They are easier to remember within the context of a form. A form is a block of knowledge, and as such it is usually easier to remember the form, than to remember every piece in isolation if taught that way instead. But I know the form so I can break it down into the separate segments if I wish to. A form is a tool and you can do with it what you want, you can get creative and pull pieces out to work on specifically, etc. that is what makes the forms useful. Not just an exercise in memorization.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

14 weapons forms, for how many different weapons? Is each form for a different weapon, or does each weapon have several forms?

Several forms for staff. I think two each for the other weapons, but I'd have to go back and look at the list.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Long form? Have you seen the video I recently posted? Chuit Yap Bo Kuen. That is a long form.

I know, that's why I clarified my usage. To me, 20-30 moves is something a student can learn fairly quickly (part of several classes), and can then use as a tool. The really long forms seem to me like they become the focus, rather than techniques and principles having focus.

 

[Flying Crane]

I know, that's why I clarified my usage. To me, 20-30 moves is something a student can learn fairly quickly (part of several classes), and can then use as a tool. The really long forms seem to me like they become the focus, rather than techniques and principles having focus.

That that can happen, which is why it is important to have the right mindset, and the right instruction.

Sifu would say (accurately, I might add) that people rush through the forms because they are too focused on “doing the form” and not on making sure every technique and every part of the form is done correctly. I recognized that fault in myself, once he pointed it out.

This results in technique execution being rushed and incomplete because I was focused on what comes next before I had correctly completed what I am doing now. Racing through the form to completion is not the point. Doing every part of it correctly, and ingraining that movement, is the point. The form is an opportunity to do every movement to completion, in an ideal way. It is not the chaos of sparring where technique tends to break down. So use that opportunity to practice the complete technique.

But yeah, it’s a mindset.

 

[Flying Crane]

Several forms for staff. I think two each for the other weapons, but I'd have to go back and look at the list.

Interesting.

We sometimes have one or as many as three I suppose, per weapon. If you want to become a real expert on a weapon, you might have several. For general understanding and basic proficiency one can be enough. This assumes you have a solid foundation on the weapon fundamentals. And a good way to practice them.

 

[WaterGal]

The speed roundhouse is the more advanced version, once you're familiar with the others. What's the motion?

Back leg slides up to join the front leg, front knee comes up, back foot pivots, front leg whips out to do the roundhouse kick.

 

[WaterGal]

The important part being "at that level". We have some techniques that don't show up until the blue and red belt forms, which are techniques we teach at white and yellow belt. These are "new" as far as the forms are concerned, but something we've been training for ages already. Which means the form is not retaining the part of the curriculum associated with the form.

Is that a problem with the form, though, or with your curriculum? (I think it's neither, it's just a mismatch. There's no reason why you can't teach the back stance block -> grab -> front stance punch combo in Taegeuk 3 at the same belt where you learn Taegeuk 3, for example. What you teach when is totally arbitrary.)