Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang

[DaPoets]

East Winds - I posted the pictures to help with the discussion, not as a reason to show good or bad Taoist Tai Chi but to show how some people do it.

One thing I find interesting is that many here have shot down most of TTCS's techniques and say they can't be healthy (front sitting, square hips, etc...) and yet over the decades there have been plenty medical journals with detailed explainations by doctors (western doctors) as to why and how these techniques are helping people.

Now I already know everyone is asking "well post the journals..." and yes I'll look into them. Most of the ones I have read are in 3 ring binders in our branch archives but there are some online.

 

[DaPoets]

Maybe then, if the best practitioners are representative of an art, and we have shots of Yang Cheng-fu et al, then it would be good to compare online videos and stills of the best practitioners of the TTCS exercise. To compare apples with apples, as it were.

That's an idea... comparing a group of random TTCS members w/ historical tai chi figures... I decided to not even point that out but thanks for doing it mograph. I will try to post some still immages of Mrs. Kwon doing Hsing-I, I'm sure you all will have fun ripping that appart lol.

 

[mograph]

... comparing a group of random TTCS members ...

Well, thats all we have right now.

 

[Myrmidon]

One thing I find interesting is that many here have shot down most of TTCS's techniques and say they can't be healthy (front sitting, square hips, etc...) and yet over the decades there have been plenty medical journals with detailed explainations by doctors (western doctors) as to why and how these techniques are helping people.

In my case, I am just asking how the TTCS way of doing the postures of its interpretation of the Yang style 108 form is better than the traditional way of doing these postures. I understand that if changes were introduced to the form in order to enhance its health benefits, I would like to know if in effect these changes brought an improvement over the traditional form and how it was so.

Now I already know everyone is asking "well post the journals..."

Yes indeed...

 

[Myrmidon]

One thing I find interesting is that many here have shot down most of TTCS's techniques and say they can't be healthy (front sitting, square hips, etc...) and yet over the decades there have been plenty medical journals with detailed explainations by doctors (western doctors) as to why and how these techniques are helping people.

About health oriented Tai Chi we also have the "Tai Chi for Arthritis", "Tai Chi for Diabetis" and other "forms for other diseases". I have seen the Tai Chi for Arthritis form. It is basically an abreviated and simplified Sun style form that is being marketed as "Tai Chi for Arthritis". These forms were composed by Paul Lam, MD

 

[mograph]

Maybe in this discussion, as in many, framing is everything.

Are we talking about the highest level of abilities of a given style's practitioners, the lowest level, or the average level? Or the range of abilities?

Here's a question for the trad taiji folks: say you had a new crop of students, from a senior with a touch of arthritis to a young athlete, with various ages and abilities in-between. A tough group to be sure, but how would traditional taiji approach the instruction of this group? And how would they look after two years, say? What would be consistent throughout the group, and what wouldn't?

(by the way, this is a real question on how to approach a group with varying ages and abilities, not a challeng)

 

[pete]

About health oriented Tai Chi we also have the "Tai Chi for Arthritis", "Tai Chi for Diabetis" and other "forms for other diseases". I have seen the Tai Chi for Arthritis form. It is basically an abreviated and simplified Sun style form that is being marketed as "Tai Chi for Arthritis". These forms were composed by Paul Lam, MD

i've got a student that is 'certified' to teach the afore mentioned tai chi for arthritis, and is actively teaching it. i asked for a demo and a description of what specifically would make it 'for arthritis' as opposed to any other tai chi...

response: not sure. so i assigned homework: (a) give it some thought, (b) do some research, and (c) compare those qualities to the tai chi being learned through me.

i have absolutely no problem with that forms existence, nor my student's practice and teaching of it. i do encourage one to know the why's of what one does, therefore the homework assignment. And, i do welcome the opportunity to learn through my student's experiences... however, i do seriously doubt that there is any therapeutic quality that is specific to that form.

by the way, i am a believer that the qualities that make tai chi an efficient and effective martial art, are the exact same qualities that yield its many health benefits. therefore, joint health is a by product of well disciplined martial training within tai chi.

pete

 

[Myrmidon]

i've got a student that is 'certified' to teach the afore mentioned tai chi for arthritis, and is actively teaching it. i asked for a demo and a description of what specifically would make it 'for arthritis' as opposed to any other tai chi...

response: not sure. so i assigned homework: (a) give it some thought, (b) do some research, and (c) compare those qualities to the tai chi being learned through me.

An excellent thought-stimulating homework!

i have absolutely no problem with that forms existence, nor my student's practice and teaching of it. i do encourage one to know the why's of what one does, therefore the homework assignment. And, i do welcome the opportunity to learn through my student's experiences... however, i do seriously doubt that there is any therapeutic quality that is specific to that form.

I agree... As abreviated and simplified forms they may be easier to learn and perform for older folks who may have some mobility limitations... but I don't think they have more therapeutic value than other abreviated and simplified forms.

by the way, i am a believer that the qualities that make tai chi an efficient and effective martial art, are the exact same qualities that yield its many health benefits. therefore, joint health is a by product of well disciplined martial training within tai chi.

Absolutely...

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

From the different pictures I have seen
http://alabama.usa.taoist.org/images/ttcsanime5.gif


http://illinois.usa.taoist.org/PeopleTaiChi.jpg


http://www.flickr.com/photos/henricr/353998845/in/photostream/

http://ttcs.kos.net/shared/images/RandomSet1/image005.jpg

http://www.taoist.org.nz/images/aware-04.jpg

http://california.usa.taoist.org/images/single_whip.jpg

They all do the same thing!!!

Bad posture is bad posture.

If your posture is bad your Qi will not flow and become blocked. If you arch your spine like that you are not centered and you are not rooted.
I understand the concept of stretching the spine but even in Yoga is posture to represent balance. Now I know if someone who does not do such stretches will benefit from it I am not debating that, I will debate proper form which I do not see I see tension, no root, stiffness, and bad posture. Now I have taken 6 pictures from a site plus the others that have been posted to draw this conclusion.

 

[jamelser]

Didn't know where to start, so I will start here. Not picking on anyone, just trying to find a place to start.

Formosa Neijia

They have been told that squaring the hips, closing the heels, sinking into the front hip and stretching forward will help to stretch the spine and massage the internal organs.

Kinda......It will help to loosen the various fascia (muscle, tendons, ligaments) in a broad, exaggerated manner. Massaging the organs takes a while.

Of course what it will do is, close the kuas,

In the beginning of training, yes, and it is more prominent in the forward portion of the movement. Through development the openness becomes more prominent.

stick out the backside (so evident in most of the TTCS postures)

Yep, no argument there. But again as development occurs that representation diminishes.

stiffen the back leg, cause tension in the shoulders and generally produce a very unstable posture.

Yes, I can understand that and would generally agree for a large portion of the population, but after a period of development those aspects (stiffness, tension and instability) disappear. It may not appear that way but it does.

"I think it is really naive to take a snap shot and make a judgement call on that". ..........


.......thanks for the "GOOD" examples of Single Whip. TTCS members - have a good look at the Yang and Tung postures to see relaxed, stable, open, rooted, strong energy producing Single Whips.

Interesting because I can also see some faults (not a great word) within those pictures. I can see tension in the shoulders on several, the first pic looks like the low back is curved to much. Some of the participants don't look natural.

The picture with the '10' is very nice though. Belly is dropped, open and round, spine looks stacked, the weight looks like is is dropped through the legs to the floor. Looks, natural.


Anyways, I keep getting pulled with my kids and can't seem to complete my thoughts. I will try and plug in later.


J

 

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting because I can also see some faults (not a great word) within those pictures. I can see tension in the shoulders on several, the first pic looks like the low back is curved to much. Some of the participants don't look natural.

The picture with the '10' is very nice though. Belly is dropped, open and round, spine looks stacked, the weight looks like is is dropped through the legs to the floor. Looks, natural.

Interesting since the first picture is of Yang Chengfu and he was the teacher of the guy in the second picture who was Tung Ying Chieh who was the father and teacher of the guy in the third picture (with the 10) Tung Hu Ling.

And I do not see any of the faults you are pointing out in any of those pictures.

 

[jamelser]

Seeing the picture and mechanics you do not have to be a Tai chi player to see obvious bad posture.

How can you achieve this if you have bad posture or do not follow the principles of Song(relax) and Chen(sink)? How can you generate any energy? Clearly the pictures show tension in the shoulders and not a firm root. This by no means speaks for all Taoist Tai chi society but clearly we can see from the picture Tai chi that is not a good representation.

I am not going to disagree with the tension issue cause it is there in the picture. My point is, that the form develops from that. I started out just as they look and developed way beyond that.

The exaggerated stretching does have incredible benefits and prepares the body well for circulation, energy movement, grounding. I know you can't see it but it does. I look at it similar to playing an instrument........a musician has to play music, loud, soft, fast, slow to understand dynamics. That exaggeration is part of a dynamic. Loud...is not the be-all-end-all of music. Neither is soft, etc. It all needs to be integrated.

Unfortunately, when students get one.....AH HA!.... cause they understand 'loud', and they think "that is it....I have found it!".... they stop learning. I think that is what happens to a lot of students in TTCS is that they are stuck in one aspect and not really prepared to go beyond that.

From a martial point view of striking, blocking, etc, the form that is often displayed in pics, is fairly unstable and not suited for self-defence. BUT.......image if you may.......how better the body and it's defences could be naturally, if one could FIND balance, strength and stability in such and outstretched form. How much stronger would the person would be in a more contained, centered form. Something I have reflected upon and come to my own conclusions on.

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As an aside, I do not advocate 100% for the TTCS and it's teachings.
I used to.......but that was arrogant of me to do so. There is so much more to absorb and I am grateful that my intuition allowed me to expand. In the same right, it is arrogant of others to state, that there is nothing there in the TTCS form. There is.

What is encouraging is seeing us humans, have a discussion about the merits of all things tai chi......and see if we can come to some understanding.

Anyways, long winded again.

J

 

[jamelser]

Interesting since the first picture is of Yang Chengfu and he was the teacher of the guy in the second picture who was Tung Ying Chieh who was the father and teacher of the guy in the third picture (with the 10) Tung Hu Ling.

That is interesting. Thanks

 

[mograph]

Unfortunately, when students get one.....AH HA!.... cause they understand 'loud', and they think "that is it....I have found it!".... they stop learning. I think that is what happens to a lot of students in TTCS is that they are stuck in one aspect and not really prepared to go beyond that.

I've found this to be true as well, in my years with the TTCS and afterward. People who were so open-minded and receptive in beginner class close their minds right after they finish the first iteration of set instruction, and what we see is a bunch of people who never go much beyond the beginner level.

From a martial point view of striking, blocking, etc, the form that is often displayed in pics, is fairly unstable and not suited for self-defence. BUT.......image if you may.......how better the body and it's defences could be naturally, if one could FIND balance, strength and stability in such and outstretched form. How much stronger would the person would be in a more contained, centered form. Something I have reflected upon and come to my own conclusions on.

Hmm. I'd have to say, I'm not convinced of that, given what I've experienced by dropping the tailbone, stacking the bones and learning to be stable (not a pushover) while kicking on one leg. If one set of muscles have to be used to maintain an unstable stance, that does not lead to relaxation, healing and tensegrity. It's not good internal structure, in my opinion, because it is supported by unbalanced tension.

But ... I'll keep an open mind, just as I ask my engineering brothers to keep an open mind when a free-body diagram can't explain why I can't be pushed over while on one leg.

In the same right, it is arrogant of others to state, that there is nothing there in the TTCS form. There is.

True. I think the negative reaction in the community is due to the TTCS's size and apparent claims of superiority. <shrug>

 

[Formosa Neijia]

This thread reminds me that trying to argue with cult member is a waste of time. They are not mentally capable of "getting it" due to the cult mindset. And no evidence wil convince them otherwise.

When people claiming to do a YCF-derived Yang style say they see "errors" in YCF's pictures and instead uphold the stuff that TTCS is doing, then the issue is dead as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This thread reminds me that trying to argue with cult member is a waste of time. They are not mentally capable of "getting it" due to the cult mindset. And no evidence wil convince them otherwise.

When people claiming to do a YCF-derived Yang style say they see "errors" in YCF's pictures and instead uphold the stuff that TTCS is doing, then the issue is dead as far as I'm concerned.

True :asian:

 

[jamelser]

This thread reminds me that trying to argue with cult member is a waste of time. They are not mentally capable of "getting it" due to the cult mindset. And no evidence wil convince them otherwise.

The same expression could be said of any culture of ideas. Taking a stance that their culture or idea is the best.....has been a fruitless argument since the beginning of time. (Buddhist vs Taoist)(Wicca vs Christianity)(windows vs mac). You yourself are taking that position as well.

The claims of TTCS superiority that morgraph alludes to is not unfounded. It is an underlying tone prevalent in the organization and it seems to get expressed from all sorts of different people.

Is it appropriate....no way. Is it conducive to harmony....not at all......is it part of the TTCS guidebook....in Big Red Letters (kidding).

If any person came up to me and said "......what you are doing is wrong...." regardless of topic. I would take offence and not be open to any input. If the approach was more, ".....I see your doing it this way, can I share my experience with you.....". I would be way more open to receive information.

From what I have read, what Dapoets is trying to do is create a link between his experience and others. Kudos! Slamming him for being where he is at doesn't create good harmony and only widens the gap further.

When people claiming to do a YCF-derived Yang style say they see "errors" in YCF's pictures and instead uphold the stuff that TTCS is doing, then the issue is dead as far as I'm concerned.

Kinda like a computer technician telling a plumber that what he is doing is wrong. Both smart people, trained in there respective profession, capable of troubleshooting their problems......

My point with that little exercise was to show how easily critisim can be thrown here, and how easily we can be stuck in our position.

With my current instructor, if there is a discrepancy between what I was taught before and what I am learning now, he allows me to freely express my understanding, he expresses his understanding. When we are done, I have learn his teaching, he understands where I came from and I keep both versions. Makes me a better person.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
My 7 year old just told me I "Gotta go to a garage sale"

Thanks and Cheers,

J

 

[DaPoets]

I only have a sec so this is short. The Taoist Tai Chi society under the direction of Mr. Moy has a focus of improving people's health. That is 1st and foremost and the initial tool used to do this is the healing qualities of Tai Chi.

make taoist tai chi available to all
promote the healing qualities of tai chi
cultural exchange
helping others

These 4 aims & objectives are what make the TTCS different from martial arts schools or exercise places. Many school focus on tai chi and only tai chi, or self defense, and all kinds of things of this nature, but TTCS uses taijiquan as a tool for health as well as many other tools, like lok hup, meditation, chanting, Buddhist exercises, and more...

So when it comes to comparing TTCS tai chi to traditional yang tai chi, there are things that are very similar, as well as things that are very very different. And Mr. Moy would teach 2 different people the same move but have them do it differently based on their abilities and health, thus you have many different pictures of people doing a move in different ways. There is development that takes place and years for that to happen. The basic tai chi set is just that, basic, until that individual's body tells them they are ready for more.

 

[pete]

there are usually 2 approaches to an artistic endeavor, including those martial... tradition vs change. clinging to tradition will typically lead to obsolesense, just talk to your friendly neighborhood dinosaur. yet change for change's sake will typically lead to what i regard as finger painting, kindergartners are real creative but do you want that hanging in a museum or on mom's refridgerator?

real evolution is tricky, and should really come naturally and not forced upon (especially given Tai Chi and its Taoist philosophies.) in established arts even perceptive innovators who actually innovate (trather than finger paint) will be tried for treason while alive and revered posthumously. gotta figure we haven't seen the last of the great tai chi masters, and innovations and improvements will come with time. but not every change is necessarily good, nor bad, just will be as that is a side of human nature... just as reverence for the founders and old masters is another side.

no winners here, just is... tai chi.

pete

 

[Myrmidon]

From what I have read, what Dapoets is trying to do is create a link between his experience and others. Kudos! Slamming him for being where he is at doesn't create good harmony and only widens the gap further.

I don't think DaPoets is being "slammed". He/she(?) is presenting a point of view and is receiving feedback.

Kinda like a computer technician telling a plumber that what he is doing is wrong. Both smart people, trained in there respective profession, capable of troubleshooting their problems......

I think you are a bit off track here. DaPoets is expressing him/herself(?) as a Tai Chi practitioner/instructor. Many of us here are practitioners and there are some instructors... so your analogy of the computer technician and the plumber is inappropriate...

My point with that little exercise was to show how easily critisim can be thrown here, and how easily we can be stuck in our position.

I don't see anything wrong with objective criticism...

With my current instructor, if there is a discrepancy between what I was taught before and what I am learning now, he allows me to freely express my understanding, he expresses his understanding. When we are done, I have learn his teaching, he understands where I came from and I keep both versions. Makes me a better person.

Good for you! When I have expressed a different point of view to my teacher, he would tell me: "Let's test it". And when he teaches me something, we always test it. That way we talk less and train more...