Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang

[mograph]

I think I have the Dillon translation ... is that the one that lists the original characters, then a literal translation, then the polished English?

Anyway, that's what I have, but it seems to be out on loan right now. I often prefer the literal translation, since he seems to take a bit of license with the polished English translation.

 

[DaPoets]

The Chinese 5 word Song was translated and comentary added by a fellow student of Master Moy Lin Shin's Lok Hup Ba Fa lineage. I have both main books "The Chinese 5 Word Song" (Li Tung Fung, Mark McGee, John Chung Li), as well as it's additional commentary "Hwa Yu T'ai Chi Ch'uan: Unlocking the Mysteries of the Five-Word Song" (Glenn Newth, Mark Newth. I have the correct names on my home computer so tomorrow I can go in more detail to show the connection.
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Yes.
There's a translation of the Five Word Poem (as in, every line has five words) by Paul Dillon. I don't know how accurate it is. There's a John Chung Li translation which is terrible.

I posted the Chinese text of the Five Word Poem in an old LHBF thread and I've been trying to find translators.

The legitimacy of the Five Word Poem is not clear, but the LHBF we see today is certainly developed around it. The Five Word Poem, even if illegitimate, does contain principles found in other arts like Xingyi and Bagua so it's not complete bunk.

 

[kubrick]

Hi there (first post!!). I have enjoyed reading this thread hugely, it echoes some of the feelings I have about TTCS. I have been attending a class for three months now and I am noticing certain aspects that I don't like.

Firstly, I should say that it seems to have helped with a repetitive strain injury condition which I suffer from. So it has some benefits. However, most of the above criticisms are bang on. What I found most shocking is 'continuing' students, who are in our class as assistants, not only have extremely poor form, they can't even remember the set!!

Also I question the wisdom of making everyone labouriously memorise the 108 movement set in whichever half-hearted sloppy manner they can, and only AFTER THAT are be given more detailed instruction. What's the point of that, surely everyone will have picked up lots of bad habits by that point??

Anyway, you can tell I'm looking for other class right? And here's another of clip of a TTCS class

Cheers. Great thread!

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Kubrick nice first post let me the first to rep you for finding another video.

 

[DaPoets]

Yeah I remember that old video. There are plenty opportunities for growth shown in that video. Keep in mind that they are at a Rec Center and not an actual TTCS Branch Location.

This is a display of a group just trying to get through the set and have refinements to be made on the movements. My estimation is that this is a begginers class that is probably still on the 1st 17 moves of the set or so.

 

[kubrick]

(forgot to do the quote thing!)
DaPoets said "This is a display of a group just trying to get through the set and have refinements to be made on the movements. My estimation is that this is a begginers class that is probably still on the 1st 17 moves of the set or so"
~~~
I agree. So why don't the instructers stop there and refine the techniques? Right now? Start getting these forms correct and 'deeper' instead of ploughing through the next 91 in a 'this will do' kinda style. That's what's happening at my class.

 

[mograph]

So why don't the instructers stop there and refine the techniques? Right now? Start getting these forms correct and 'deeper' instead of ploughing through the next 91 in a 'this will do' kinda style. That's what's happening at my class.

That's the way it works in TTCS. The instructors are under pressure to get the students to the end of the set in 3 months, and review for one month after that. In theory. This is so beginners' classes can start every 4 months.

Regarding refinement, the idea is that you get through the 108, then you go through the set again in continuing class, at about the same pace, but one level deeper. You get to the end, then go back to the start again, one level deeper. And so on. Different students might get more or less (or different) corrections, to the best ability of the instructor.

Note the last phrase. Considering that the TTCS is promoting marginal students to beginner instructor status (yes, I still have contacts there), that instructor training weeks ("CIT week") are limited to a lot of practice (and speeches on "our charitable acts" and so on) for a vast number of people, those marginal students don't get to advance much. Also, the instructor training seems to be limited to the standardization of the set to a point where it becomes a mild calisthenic, not hurting anybody, but not giving the benefits that traditional Taijiquan instruction can offer.

... unless you're an indoor student such as DaPoets, whose personal instruction in Toronto seems to be very different from that available to most students, in and out of Toronto.

(DaPoet's assessment of the group may be accurate for the poor souls in the back row, but the rest are doing it at the level of most practitioners I've seen in my years in the TTCS.)

Kubrick, if you want a mild calisthenic, stick with TTCS. If you want the best it can offer, move to Toronto (or vicinity), practice a lot, volunteer a lot and become friends with the Administration. However, if you want good Taijiquan, go somewhere else. The TTCS has changed much due to its growth over the years -- the administration has become more focused on fundraising for the Cultivation Centre than anything else.

Just my opinion.

 

[kubrick]

Thanks, all very interesting. I can't see me staying with TTCS but at least it offers an accessable introduction ... and its cheap!

 

[East Winds]

mograph,

That just about says how it is!!! Pretty accurate analysis.The guy leading the group (in the red T Shirt) is doing "good" Taoist Tai Chi. No energy, No co-ordination, No softness, In fact no anything!!! If you really want to find out about how the TTCS teach their form, then this video says (and shows) it all!!

Very best wishes

 

[DaPoets]

The instructors are there on a volunteer basis and don't always have the time to spend more than 3 months on teaching the Tai Chi set. So, it's split between someone who knows how to do the set (beginner instructor) and then someone who is qualified to help refine the movements (continuing instructor). If the instructors were there as a full time job then yeah things would probably be different.

(forgot to do the quote thing!)
DaPoets said "This is a display of a group just trying to get through the set and have refinements to be made on the movements. My estimation is that this is a begginers class that is probably still on the 1st 17 moves of the set or so"
~~~
I agree. So why don't the instructers stop there and refine the techniques? Right now? Start getting these forms correct and 'deeper' instead of ploughing through the next 91 in a 'this will do' kinda style. That's what's happening at my class.

 

[DaPoets]

I wouldn't go that far as to say the guy in the red T shirt is doing "good" Taoist Tai Chi. He needs lots of instruction too.... He is taking half steps just to keep his balance, isn't connected to the ground, and many other things.

mograph,

That just about says how it is!!! Pretty accurate analysis.The guy leading the group (in the red T Shirt) is doing "good" Taoist Tai Chi. No energy, No co-ordination, No softness, In fact no anything!!! If you really want to find out about how the TTCS teach their form, then this video says (and shows) it all!!

Very best wishes

 

[DaPoets]

The problem many people have with videos is that when people see a video, they think that this is how things should be done, or are done. When in fact, that is how that particular group or person is doing it and may not be a good reflection at all of what is taught and practiced or what is taught and SHOULD be practiced.

Again, TTCS is a volunteer instructor organization and everyone knows that there are many levels of a volunteer's heart and commitment to something. Some are in it for the social side to have tea and cookies, and other are in it for the meditation and chanting, while some are in it for the art of taijiquan and it's many applications and benifits. And even with all this, one get's out of these 3 areas that they put into them.

I hope this clears some things up. Toronto was mentioned and yes those in Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Buffalo, tend to be kinda die hard taijiquan due to the proximity of where Master Moy lived and taught while that die hard drive natually gets watererd down the further away you get. Not that this is a bad thing, but it's common sense and natural. Master Moy traveled to Austrailia 11 times in 13 years before his passing but even w/ that effort, it's not the same as getting a random phone call saying "he come on up for dinner tonight, I want to show you something" from Master Moy.

 

[East Winds]

"He needs lots of instruction too.... He is taking half steps just to keep his balance, isn't connected to the ground, and many other things".

And yet he is allowed to teach and lead a class and he can't even do the basics yet? No wonder the TTCS is treated with such derision.

Very best wishes

 

[Flying Crane]

Again, TTCS is a volunteer instructor organization and everyone knows that there are many levels of a volunteer's heart and commitment to something.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did want to point something out related to your statement here.

Volunteering is a great thing, and there is nothing wrong with refusing a fee for your teaching time and expertise. The problem is that it seems in the martial arts, and in the internal arts like taiji in particular, too many people are teaching who really just should not be teaching. The internal arts are very subtle and take a fair bit of time and effort to really understand, and not everyone who undertakes their study will ever truly understand it. Yet it seems everyone is in a hurry to become a teacher.

I don't understand why anyone has a drive to expand or spread the martial arts to large groups of people. This inevitably leads to instructors who are less and less worthy and the quality drops overall, because the message of expansion becomes the focus, instead of teaching quality martial arts. Seems to me that some people want to use the martial arts as a vehicle for other things, and to some extent that can be OK. Health benefits go hand-in-hand with martial training, including taiji, altho I'm not a supporter of making heath the primary focus if the martial roots are completely ignored or deliberately cast aside.

I just cannot support the notion of people teaching, who are not ready to be teaching, many of whom will simply NEVER be ready to be teaching. Those people ought to focus on their own training instead. Whether or not a teacher is a volunteer is immaterial if that person is not ready to be a teacher. That, in my opinion, trumps all goodwill and volunteerism.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did want to point something out related to your statement here.

Volunteering is a great thing, and there is nothing wrong with refusing a fee for your teaching time and expertise. The problem is that it seems in the martial arts, and in the internal arts like taiji in particular, too many people are teaching who really just should not be teaching. The internal arts are very subtle and take a fair bit of time and effort to really understand, and not everyone who undertakes their study will ever truly understand it. Yet it seems everyone is in a hurry to become a teacher.

I don't understand why anyone has a drive to expand or spread the martial arts to large groups of people. This inevitably leads to instructors who are less and less worthy and the quality drops overall, because the message of expansion becomes the focus, instead of teaching quality martial arts. Seems to me that some people want to use the martial arts as a vehicle for other things, and to some extent that can be OK. Health benefits go hand-in-hand with martial training, including taiji, altho I'm not a supporter of making heath the primary focus if the martial roots are completely ignored or deliberately cast aside.

I just cannot support the notion of people teaching, who are not ready to be teaching, many of whom will simply NEVER be ready to be teaching. Those people ought to focus on their own training instead. Whether or not a teacher is a volunteer is immaterial if that person is not ready to be a teacher. That, in my opinion, trumps all goodwill and volunteerism.

:cheers: :high5:
artyon:artyon:

I WILL rep you for this as soon as I can :bangahead:

 

[mograph]

Again, TTCS is a volunteer instructor organization and everyone knows that there are many levels of a volunteer's heart and commitment to something. Some are in it for the social side to have tea and cookies, and other are in it for the meditation and chanting, while some are in it for the art of taijiquan and it's many applications and benifits. And even with all this, one get's out of these 3 areas that they put into them.

Yet being instructors, they are all "accredited" by definition. From the TTCS website:
In keeping with the aims of the Society, all instructors are volunteers. An accredited instructor must meet the standards set by Master Moy and continually upgrade his or her knowledge through attendance at regular classes and workshops. For the student, being taught by a volunteer means receiving attention that is motivated by enthusiasm and belief in the benefits of the art.

To ensure the same quality of instruction and consistency of purpose at all locations, meetings and workshops are frequently conducted at all levels of the organization. Members enjoy the fact that they can visit or transfer to any branch location and find the same style and quality of instruction, as well as the same friendly atmosphere and charitable orientation.

This implies that the level of instruction is both high and consistent. The alternate assessment by DaPoets is more accurate.

 

[DaPoets]

On the flip side of things, the instructor in the Red could be teaching his 1st begniners class and is fairly new to Taoist Tai Chi himself. Additionally, he could be 25 years into it and has spent the last 10 years somehow someway not improving his Tai Chi by not adhearing to the continuing intruction in training guidlines and has slipped though the cracks of loosing accrediation if that is the case. At this point I'm just guessing but it is clear to me that this was a demonstration of what a beginners class could be like.

In all honesty though, learning the 108 movements at first will be just a dance for many people with out the right type of instruction. Lots of Tai Chi should be done in the begniners to start to get insight as to what Tai Chi is to them (bodies/spirit) and to really "feel" something different. It can be a knew way of thought for some, especially for students that come from harder forms. The Beginners Class may last for 3-4 months and students are given enough for the Continuing Instructors In Training to work with over the years to refine their movements and help them with their own unique Tai Chi development. I don't want to call the Beginners Class "Fluff" but it somewhat is because many times it's being taught by someone who knows the sequence of the movements and not much else, but this is only for 3-4 months. Those students now have years of training ahead of them to make those movements their own, guided by much more proficient instructors who had to go through a lot more to become a continuing instructor.

Granted, it's a great thing when Continuing Instructors in Training teach beginners classes and they should from time to time, and you can see the difference in the quality of the students Tai Chi from this.

That's all for now... Back to work...

 

[Flying Crane]

On the flip side of things, the instructor in the Red could be teaching his 1st begniners class and is fairly new to Taoist Tai Chi himself. Additionally, he could be 25 years into it and has spent the last 10 years somehow someway not improving his Tai Chi by not adhearing to the continuing intruction in training guidlines and has slipped though the cracks of loosing accrediation if that is the case.

...

I don't want to call the Beginners Class "Fluff" but it somewhat is because many times it's being taught by someone who knows the sequence of the movements and not much else...

And coming back to my prior post, in either count the "teacher" is not ready to teach. He doesn't understand what he is doing, and cannot pass it on with any level of quality, irregardless of his philanthropic willingness to volunteer his time.

If a personal trainer in a gym volunteered his time and got me working on a fitness program, I'd still want to feel confident that he knows his profession. I don't question the goodness of his heart, exemplified by his willingness to coach me for free. A fitness program, including weight lifting, can be done WRONG and can be DANGEROUS. Under those conditions, at best the training is just ineffectual/worthless, and as worst it could actually injure me, even severely. The teacher MUST know what he is doing and MUST understand the methods and material, or he simply must not be teaching.

I could find a math tutor to teach me calculus. Maybe he's a friend of mine and we is willing to tutor me for free. But if he doesn't fully understand calculus, my progress under his tutelage will be very limited and could even instill some erroneous concepts. Free or not, if he doesn't understand his subject, his aid is worthless.

And I'm not necessarily talking about credentials here. The physical trainer doesn't necessarily need to have a certification, the math tutor doesn't need a teaching credential, and the martial arts teacher doesn't need to have a Sokeship Council certificate on his wall. But one way or the other, they need to fully understand their craft and be capable of teaching it in an effective manner. If they are lacking in either of these areas, they should not teach.

 

[DaPoets]

Yep I agree fully. This is one reason why people are only in the beginners class for a few months, and then move on to a more experienced instructor. (Generally how it works)

 

[Flying Crane]

Yep I agree fully. This is one reason why people are only in the beginners class for a few months, and then move on to a more experienced instructor. (Generally how it works)

Why not have a more experienced teacher teaching the beginners as well? This might avoid some bad habits forming, and would eliminate some amount of retraining the students would need to do when they are accepted into the next level class...