Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang

[DaPoets]

grydth did I abuse you in a former life or something? I am not the TTCS spokes person so I'm conducting a conversation as best I can with my experience and knowledge on the matter.

My wife has the Phd in Psychology, you do not. Save us the psychobabble and the character assassination. But then.... what else do you have with which to deflect East Winds thread?

 

[grydth]

grydth did I abuse you in a former life or something? I am not the TTCS spokes person so I'm conducting a conversation as best I can with my experience and knowledge on the matter.

Then please limit said "conversation" to addressing the topic introduced by East Winds. My alleged personality defects and past life escapades have nothing to do with specified topic.

 

[DaPoets]

This thread has become useless East Winds... You can PM me and we can talk about our experiences with out unproductive comments and accusations. I'm done w/ this thread due to grydth.

 

[grydth]

This thread has become useless East Winds... You can PM me and we can talk about our experiences with out unproductive comments and accusations. I'm done w/ this thread due to grydth.

What a cowardly cop out. Sling the mud and then run away from hard questions in a debate using the target as the pretext. Dishonorable.... but we've seen this before when this character wanted to avoid unpleasant questions.

Coward.:bs:

 

[DaPoets]

Xue Sheng, I have grown to respect and pay close attention to your comments, criticisms, and suggestions as you have given them in a way that may be blunt, but also in a way that makes people want to grow and learn more, plus you have been respectful with humility. I do hope that more on this forum learn from your style.

A good stance is a good stance and a bad stance is a bad stance regardless of application. But I remember not to long ago supplied pictures trying to say TTCS' version of Taiji was better for you than other styles too. So before anyone gets offended we need to remember that.

But without actually seeing the TTCS stance I really cannot comment beyond that.

If you look at some of the traditional Yang style stances form the Yang family as compared to the Traditional Yang style stances as they come form Tung Ying Jie I would say that I feel many of the Yang families postures are to high as is their center.

I am not sure that a comparison between TTCS and Traditional Yang is entirely possible without having them both in front of you (live) to compare.

As one of the Chen family said of Yang style taiji "it is to high" as a long time Yang style master said of Chen style "it is to low" and from both of their perspectives they are correct but Chen is Chen and Yang is Yang that is all.

I am not a big fan of the TTCS but I do not have enough background in their forms to debate them

 

[mograph]

Boy, ad hominem attacks really kill a thread. Both of you contributed to bringing it down. Enough.

We're talking about the forms. If you want to sling somebody, whether in defence or not, walk away from the computer and do some Tai Chi or something. Then look at the first posts and come up with something useful.

Thank you.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I trained briefly with the Taoist Tai chi Society (I think a week)
From my experience and comparing it with my current internal style teachers there is a big difference.
As I recall doing the forms there was no mention of the internal principles.
I was also told within the society when doing a certain form pretend that a person is attacking and you are blocking, but we do not do martial application. I always felt that was a bit odd to use that analogy.

As I was told by one of Jwing Ming Yang's students these in regards to Taoist Tai chi:

Read the Tai chi classics and compare it.

 

[Quotheraving]

DaPoets could you please post a link to video footage representing what you would consider good examples of the TTCS form, I am not familiar with this take on the Yang style.

 

[DaPoets]

Quotheraving, I have looked and have not seen video online as of yet even though there are plenty videos around to purchase... I was hoping to find video of the last couple Awareness Days where a couple thousand people were all doing Taoist Tai Chi in Toronto but have not seen that pop up either on the web. I will keep looking.

Jadecloud-
Instructors are not supposed to be speaking of a martial application when teaching the form for a large number of reasons.... the main one is that the instructors themselves are not trained in the martial application so why should they be speaking about it to their students... I'm sorry you had an instructor for a brief moment that steered away from the structured teaching format. Also in Beginner Classes, internal principles shouldn't really be spoken of because those are covered in the continuing classes. The Beginner Classes are to get the students to learn the basics of the 108 movements as they only last for 3 months.

 

[MJS]

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[tshadowchaser]

After reading the first 2 posts in this thread I am led to believe that TTCS is only about movement and internal flow without having any martial application. That in and of itself makes me wonder why the martial application was taken out but that is not what the thread is about the original post asks for a comparison of the postures.

The single whip stance/movement was the opening one suggested, can we have a few more of them presented with a brake down of foot, hand, body placement. I know that many of the reasons for variation may be because of application so PLEASE allow the explanation and if your style dose not do a martial application tell why the stance is the way it is: balance. Etc.

how about starting with the first or 2nd movement and going from there?

 

[Myrmidon]

It would be very helpful if a photo or illustration of the posture to be discussed is shown.

 

[Flying Crane]

...TTCS doesn't have an application due to it's focus on stretching/health/opening the body parts up. In TTCS nobody is going to be pushing you over thus the stances reflect this.

If this is the focus of TTCS, why is the form done at all? Why not practice a system of qi-gong?

 

[mograph]

It would be very helpful if a photo or illustration of the posture to be discussed is shown.

They're group shots, but they might have to do, until a shot of Mr. Moy comes along. Here's single whip (also here), brush knee, and grasp bird's tail (looks like "press").

More are out there.

 

[pete]

I'm sorry, but this discussion is like doing an online winetasting... or better still, comparing a pint of Guinness vs O'Doulls. Tastes great, Less Filling... then the Guinness guy says 'well i can get wrecked on 5 pints, how about you and your O'Doulls'... not fair, he says, the great Brew-master Martin O'Doull intentionally took out the alcohol. Let's keep the comparisons on taste only... YEAH RIGHT, LETS DISCUSS WHAT A BREW TASTES LIKE ON THE INTERNET.

How 'bout this... sell whatever beer you want to whoever will drink them, for whatever reason, preference, and need they have. There is room for everyone to drink what they want, and feel good about it... without having every critic and elitist under the sun come out and shove their self proclaimed propriety up under their skirt.

there. now that that's outta the way, i am going to kick back and enjoy a 'Guinness' or two of my own.

peace out,
pete.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Instructors are not supposed to be speaking of a martial application when teaching the form for a large number of reasons.... the main one is that the instructors themselves are not trained in the martial application so why should they be speaking about it to their students... I'm sorry you had an instructor for a brief moment that steered away from the structured teaching format. Also in Beginner Classes, internal principles shouldn't really be spoken of because those are covered in the continuing classes. The Beginner Classes are to get the students to learn the basics of the 108 movements as they only last for 3 months.

Dear Dapoets,
Thanks for explaining that. I think the reason they did was to help get the feel for the form I found when it was explained that way did my understanding of the form work well. I found that teacher within the society and my teacher now who studies Chen and Yang to have similarites. I guess each of us find what is appealing and go from there.
:cheers:

 

[mograph]

If this is the focus of TTCS, why is the form done at all? Why not practice a system of qi-gong?

Maybe "became the focus" is more accurate. It might have been an evolutionary thing from martial TC to non-martial TC, where it eventually became hard to make an extreme change to drop Tai Chi from the entire program. As the story goes, Mr. Moy began getting a bunch of aggressive types in his classes, so he dropped the martial component from the form and kept teaching the form without it. Also, people might have found straight Qigong exercises boring, and dropped out. Maybe people wanted to learn a package of moves that could be practiced without much thought as to "now, which one shall I do next?"

We of course realize, that though some things may seem big, organized and institutionalized, they may have come to be through small, informal, spur-of-the-moment decisions ... the impact of which could not have been foreseen at the time.

I'm speculating, of course. Maybe it hit the sweet spot with a lot of people: more movement than yoga, an international brand, "kung fu" moves without getting hurt...?

 

[Flying Crane]

They're group shots, but they might have to do, until a shot of Mr. Moy comes along. Here's single whip (also here), brush knee, and grasp bird's tail (looks like "press").

More are out there.

I don't claim that my own taiji is tops by any means, but it seems to me from those photos, that there is a tendency to stiffen the body and lean excessively forward...

 

[mograph]

I don't claim that my own taiji is tops by any means, but it seems to me from those photos, that there is a tendency to stiffen the body and lean excessively forward...

Yep, unless they've changed things, the hallmark of the form was to align the back leg and torso -- no bend/curve at the hips/waist.

However ... in a TTCS book for beginners, he did not adhere to this dictum in every (copyrighted) photo. I think the dictum became institutionalized, while it was only meant as a temporary measure for beginners.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

After reading the first 2 posts in this thread I am led to believe that TTCS is only about movement and internal flow without having any martial application.

The problem is what they're doing won't bring good movement, qi flow. or even great health.

One of the most difficult things for people to accept is that taiji is about more than doing something slowly. Just because someone is moving slowly doesn't mean they are moving correctly. Usually they aren't.

The push hands and applications are there to reinforce the correct way of moving. If you're moving correctly, those practices will show you. If not, they give you clues about what to correct.

Feeling qi flow, especially, depends on moving in a fairly specific way. It WILL NOT just happen one day by accident unless you're very lucky. So the TTCS are just deluding themselves.

Their claims to be practicing for health is also just a cover because anything that gets people out of their chairs is good for their health to an extent. The health that CORRECT taiji practice can bring is much deeper and more profound, but again people that are practicing as TTCS does will never find it.