Taoist Tai Chi Society anyone?

[East Winds]

grydth,

It is only in the last few years they have acknowledged that the form is "based on Yang style". Before that it was advertised as a form, formulated specially by Master Moy based on teachings he received whilst a Taoist monk in a monastery in China. The sad fact is that it was possible to become an Instructor and be let loose on a public class after a year of learning Taoist Tai Chi. From your own experience you will know how much you knew about Taiji after a year!!!! But that about says all you need to know about the depth of their teaching.

Very best wishes

 

[grydth]

One sign post of our era is how much easier it is to prosper by doing ill than by doing good.

I just revisited the extensive TTCS site. The fist on the badge is now gone, though they persist in calling their product Tai Chi Chuan. Master Moy is now credited with "transforming" Yang Tai Chi.

It appears the original Moy died in the late 1990's. Wonder who's in charge now....

There is a very impressive set of facilities at the Canada headquarters, showing that charity does indeed begin at home. They claim 30,000 members.

It says the "sequence of moves" in108 form can be learned in a matter of 3 or 4 months (!).... and thence flows, one would guess, the instructors with a year of experience. The pictures are enlightening and the postures, well...

This is solely subjective on my part, but I was left with the impression of the Jim Jones contingent esconsed in a James Bond Villain's Fortress.

 

[newGuy12]

Before that it was advertised as a form, formulated specially by Master Moy based on teachings he received whilst a Taoist monk in a monastery in China.

For what its worth, this is how it was presented to me.

 

[grydth]

For what its worth, this is how it was presented to me.

All in all, they are far more convincing than the fake a batch of us fell for some years back.

 

[Tai G]

I encountered them a while back. My experience was that it seemsed like a pyramid sort of organization. The "instructor" had been practicing for only one year and basically couldn't answer any questions anyone had. All she could do is demonstrate the form for us. after about two seconds it was obvious that the principles of taijiquan were not present. If I remember right the "instructor" was a volunteer. What does that mean? It means all the money went to the organization. They also advertised heavily, reminding me of another group who many view as a pyramid group. The NKT Buddhist group.
I'm currently studying Taijiquan with a couple of teachers. One has a very well established school with a long history and a great reputation( I'm actually learning the beijing 24 from him as part of acupuncture school). The other teaches on the side in community centers but is very good. (Studying Chen Fake's lineage with him) Anyway, if you can look for Taijiquan principles being present in the instructor you'll be off to a good start.

 

[DaPoets]

Hey all, I stumbled upon this old dusty thread and the only thing I really want to point out is why Mr. Moy had beginners teaching beginners (instructing after only a few years). His view was that if you instruct others you are teaching yourself as well, which is a great way to learn Tai Chi yourself. These instructors would only be teaching the basics of the 108 movments and after that the students would then move on to a more senior instructor called a "Continuing Instructor" that has gone through an accredidation process to be able to correclty advance those beginner students into actually reaping the bennifits of doing Tai Chi. There may be plenty of beginner instructors but not that many continuing instructors. There are plenty locations around the U.S. that only have one or two continuing instructors and therefore those that studied with Mr. Moy for decades work hard at teaching around the country/world to ensure that all instruction is being done the same way and to increase the knowledge of the instructors. For example, I attend classes in Buffalo where there are "ok" continuing instructors but once a week I go to Toronto to take a class from Tony Kwon who studied w/ Mr. Moy nearly everyday for 28 years. That is a very different and extremely intense class compared to the average class you find around the world.

To touch on other points briefly (as there is another TTCS thread)

yes cultural exhange is the 3rd aim and objective yet we don't play nice w/ other tai chi schools (does bug me a bit but right now I'm still learning a lot... but when I am full....)

Instructors teach for free yet we charge monthly dues/donations... well we have to pay the rent and utilities.... And there is lots of fund raising that goes on and grant applications (I just was awarded w/ a grant from HSBC bank for the TTCS)

Charity is definatly there. Feed the homeless is going on Saturday in my area all day. MS walk next weekend as well. Teaching Tai Chi to the elderly and those in health recovery sounds like a bit of Charity to me as well.

The TTCS isn't perfect and was only established in 1970 so yes it is a newer age style of Tai Chi compared to the long and deep history of Tai Chi but it's roots stem from Yang combinded w/ Taoist healing techniques, thus that up/down motion, loosing your root, extensions not practicle for combat, and squaring the hips. It's not for everyone, especially those that want to learn more about many different forms of Tai Chi and believe me I'm one of them, but I want to become great at all the forms the TTCS teaches as I have gained greatly from them physically/emotionally/spiritually and so have many others.

East Winds, when I move on from TTCS you will probably be one of the 1st I look to for advice on "what's next". Tai Chi study is a multi-lifetime learning experience as one could never hope to master all the style or even learn the basics of all the styles, but you do have a chance of becoming pretty damn good at a few.

All the questions in this thread were correct to be asked and are asked often from what I see. I hope this /rant answers a lot and clears a few things up. And for those that don't know I'm 12 years into ttcs, studied under Mr. Moy before his passing, and now spend a great amount of time w/ his original students.

 

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

Glad you haven't deserted this board. Nice to hear a TTCS member being so open. It would be nice to think that this would permeate throughout the Society. I was a " Continuing Instructor" and now, of my 9 Instructors, 4 were former TTCS Instructors. Keep your open mind. Keep asking the Society questions and keep subscribing to this board.

Very best wishes

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Unfortunately my dealing with them in the past showed to them to be quite cult-like as well for the same reasons mentioned in this thread. The taiji I saw in a couple of the branches was some of the worst I have seen and I'm talking about the teachers, not the students. As has already been mentioned, beginers were perhaps teaching beginners -- something that shouldn't be allowed.

TTCS practices simply shut out other more knowledgable practicioners in smaller markets. I know of disciples of well-known teachers that can't compete with TTCS' non-profit status because the pyramid scheme that TTCS uses helps them spread like wild-fire in small areas.

I won't knock anyone personally for what they practice. To each his own. But as an organization I totally disagree with what they are doing.

 

[DaPoets]

To each their own... Here in Buffalo I have visited about a dozen schools that claim to teach tai chi including the ymca and most of them were pretty sad, but their main arts were nice... I was getting the feeling that tai chi was getting thrown into the mix of these schools to have more to offer.... There are just a small number of places here that teach tai chi exclusively and I wasn't all that impressed by those either. The beauty of the Buffalo branch of the TTCS is that it's the 1st in the U.S. and has a lot of long time members still teaching from the 1970's who were Mr. Moy's students. BUT, to your point Formosa Neijia, there are plenty branches that don't have that opportunity and the most senior person in there may only have 5 years experience....

This is somewhat acceptable with in the TTCS because we don't view it as a branch but as an organization that has workshops and intensives all the time all over the world where students that want to further their study have every opportunity to do so with incredibly skilled instructors. These events can be as short as half a day to as long as a week. You get out of it what you put into it (yes I just used that darn phrase....) If you just stay at your local branch you will only be as good as the best teacher there, and if that instructor has very little experience then the results are kinda obvious...

I think it's hilarious when people call the ttcs a cult...

1) it's a religious organization but 95% of it's members don't practice the religion, they just study tai chi
2) Taoism was nearly wiped out in China and when it comes here to the U.S. it's called satanic and cult like (not in Canada though) and some southern towns have been known to resist non-christian organizations from setting up shop with news media in one example showing TTCS members doing Tai Chi outside a city hall to show a town that didn't want them that they are there to practice tai chi and exercise the right of freedom of religion.
3) Another hilarious bit... pyramid scheme??? If the TTCS is a pyramid scheme, then so is any church, boy scouts, girl scouts, sports leagues, sorroity, fraternity, etc.... that's just a stupid claim... My frat has annual dues, lifetime membership dues, and we look to recruit others... so my Fraternity and every other fraternity out there is a pyramid scheme?
Pyramid schemes are highly illegal so please.....

 

[Xue Sheng]

1) it's a religious organization but 95% of it's members don't practice the religion, they just study tai chi

2) Taoism was nearly wiped out in China and when it comes here to the U.S. it's called satanic and cult like (not in Canada though) and some southern towns have been known to resist non-christian organizations from setting up shop with news media in one example showing TTCS members doing Tai Chi outside a city hall to show a town that didn't want them that they are there to practice tai chi and exercise the right of freedom of religion.

A lot of things were nearly wiped out in China but I do not want to go into this here and as I said before in another post you need to check your Chinese history and current events in the PRC as well. So further discussion there IMO is not possible at this time.

Not saying there haven't been issues with ANY eastern religion that came to the US but I have not yet heard any actual practicing Taoist from a real live "long time" temple in China ever being labeled "Satanic". But then again if I think about some of the more puritanical views that float around the US I do imagine it is possible

And for the Record Fulan Gong likes to make people think it is only doing Qigong and it is most certainly a cult. But I am not ready, just yet, to call TTCS a cult but the justification of most only does Taiji and practices no religion is not a defense. And many in Fulan Gong only do Qi Gong and it is still a cult organization so this too is not a defense.

And also for the record Taiji has been in the US since about 1960. My Sifu got here around then and then of course William CC Chen got here in 1962 and Cheng Manching got here 1964. I admit I was way too young then to know much about any of this but I do not remember any persecution being mentioned.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

it's a religious organization but 95% of it's members don't practice the religion, they just study tai chi

That raises the question: why does it have a non-profit status as a religious organization?

 

[DaPoets]

Because it is a religious organization... I thought I was clear on that. "Taoist" Tai Chi and yet the TTCS practices a combination of the 3 religions (Confusianism, Buddhism, Taoism). The main temple in Orangeville is called the 3 religions temple and the smaller temples around it have other things like the diety room and others. Taoist Tai Chi is one of the things the TTCS teaches and will make Taoist Tai Chi available to all who wish to learn it. If people want to explore the religious side of things then great that's on them. Freedom of religious is a wonderful thing. If you go to Orangeville, there is chanting and cerimonies held every morning, the temples are opened and closed in traditional ways, and offering and chants are done for the living and the deceased. TTCS is a religious organization and is partnered with FLK as well in this respect.

When I was young I attended bible study but I wasn't christian... I hope that puts things into perspective.

Tai Chi was here way before the 1960's..... Chinese workers in the later 1800's for example in california who gave huge contributions to the manual labor needed to build the infrastructure out there. I'll have to dig that up but I remember seeing old black and white photos of them practicing tai chi in the mornings before the work day began.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tai Chi was here way before the 1960's..... Chinese workers in the later 1800's for example in california who gave huge contributions to the manual labor needed to build the infrastructure out there. I'll have to dig that up but I remember seeing old black and white photos of them practicing tai chi in the mornings before the work day began.

Sorry, I should clarify, here in the early 60s and made openly available to Westerners.

And Chinese built much of Southern California as well as railroads and a few other things; I know their history in the US. And there were a WHOLE lot of discriminatory practices used on the Chinese that first came here for multiple reasons but mainly just because they were Chinese. A lot were killed doing incredibly dangerous jobs for the railroad that they would not give to a westerner and that is just one example.

If you want to put up old pictures by all means do post them I would like to see them. But I am fully aware that when the Chinese started coming with them came their martial arts, religion, food, (aka culture). However as a practice they did not start teaching westerners any of it until MUCH later.

 

[DaPoets]

Yes it was a very hard time for them because as slavery was ending that same evil mentality was still around and one of the massacres that happened in the late 1800's ended w/ 5 china towns destoryed and nearly chinese killed. A similar thing happened to black wall street in oklahoma when the town was burned to the ground because the businesses were doing so well which were owned and operated by non-whites. In the later 1800's many chinese actually left the U.S. for Canada as well as just going back to Asia because it was just ridiculous. Asian's and Native Americans got along great as well as blacks and Asians having a mutual respect but stayed at an arms length. It was a time of keep to your own kind due to rampant oppression.

As of right now I can only find old pics of railroad workers, miners, road builders, but I'm sure I'll come accross some of the old tai chi pictures sooner or later. I had a bunch when I was in college but that old maxtor hardrive crashed many years ago...

The messed up thing is that the Chinese and Japanese who came to the U.S. for work, did so in hopes of a better, higher quality life.... All they found was life threatening work, lack of medical care, hate, oppression, and work that was dancing the fine line of employee and slave...

People like Nate Turner (Nate Turner's Revolt 1831) are heroes of mine. Those who stand up for what is right and fight that which is wrong.

 

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

It was always the TTCS precept the "Tai Chi would be available to all" what they forgot to add was "providing you can pay for it". You are required to pay a monthly/yearly fee whether you attend classes or not. You also forgot to add that workshops and intensives cost extra. So if you want to improve your "Tai Chi", you have to pay handsomley to dos so. It is the Instructors who work for nothing, the tuition costs you, as a student!!

I also understand that Fung Loy Kok has now taken front stage. This (along with Gei Pang) was always the "political" wing of the TTCS and kept very much in the background by Moy.

Because of it's insularity, it will always attract the term "cult". Until it becomes less authoritarian, it will always be that way.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes it was a very hard time for them because as slavery was ending that same evil mentality was still around and one of the massacres that happened in the late 1800's ended w/ 5 china towns destoryed and nearly chinese killed. A similar thing happened to black wall street in oklahoma when the town was burned to the ground because the businesses were doing so well which were owned and operated by non-whites. In the later 1800's many chinese actually left the U.S. for Canada as well as just going back to Asia because it was just ridiculous. Asian's and Native Americans got along great as well as blacks and Asians having a mutual respect but stayed at an arms length. It was a time of keep to your own kind due to rampant oppression.

As of right now I can only find old pics of railroad workers, miners, road builders, but I'm sure I'll come accross some of the old tai chi pictures sooner or later. I had a bunch when I was in college but that old maxtor hardrive crashed many years ago...

The messed up thing is that the Chinese and Japanese who came to the U.S. for work, did so in hopes of a better, higher quality life.... All they found was life threatening work, lack of medical care, hate, oppression, and work that was dancing the fine line of employee and slave...

People like Nate Turner (Nate Turner's Revolt 1831) are heroes of mine. Those who stand up for what is right and fight that which is wrong.

All horrible yes, but one thing you need to take into account when it comes to Chinese, they tend to be a very closed culture and they had little trust of outsiders and the further back you go the more closed they get. And the higher quality of life many were looking for was not here, it was in China. They wanted to come here, make money send much of it back to China and later go back to China and live well. Sadly many were denied this by the way they were treated once they got here.

DaPoets,

You are required to pay a monthly/yearly fee whether you attend classes or not. You also forgot to add that workshops and intensives cost extra. So if you want to improve your "Tai Chi", you have to pay handsomley to dos so. It is the Instructors who work for nothing, the tuition costs you, as a student!!

This I did not know and that is quite interesting.

 

[DaPoets]

The bills have to be paid, I have said this before.... How can an organization run with out donations and that is just what it is, a tax deductable donation. Those who can pay, do pay, those who can't, either pay a lot less or not at all. The workshops which are great are great ways to raise money and there are plenty times when donations are waived for those that can't afford them. Like a yearly event called Continuing Instructor in Training week (CIT week) that does cost money to go but people get waivers all the time due to their financial situation or pay over time.

Gotta pay the bills and I will always defend that. What school doesn't have bills to pay?

edit-- The instructors pay the same dues as everyone else too....

 

[mograph]

Greetings, all.

If I may, I'd like to share my experience with the TTCS over the roughly six years that I was a member in the Toronto area. I should say that I never had the opportunity to take instruction from Mr. Moy.

I've found that at the grass roots level, the members have been very warm, open and accepting. In particular, when my wife and I visited the San Francisco branch, we were welcomed, and as a guest, I was even invited to share my understanding of the moves. It was a great experience, and one of the advantages of belonging to such a large organization -- you can show up and take a class at any branch.

Regarding the content of the instruction, here's my take on it. The tradition from Mr. Moy is to teach a student what he or she needs to know at that moment, occasionally stepping outside the form, then stepping back into it when the old habit has been corrected. For example, I believe the squaring of the hips is designed to open up the joints of new students and begin the habit of turning. Once the joints have been opened that way, then the student can progress to opening up the kua, with less turning into the front hip, and more opening of the back hip (in front bow stance). As another example, the up-and-down motion is also temporary, to teach the student to relax into a sit at both ends of the posture (forward and back). The up-and-down is eventually reduced in favour of maintaining a root. This is my impression.

This is good, in that it addresses the student's specific issues at that specific time, and hopefully will lead to practice of the form with a more relaxed, open body, with more "internal" intentions, compared to someone merely mimicking an accomplished instructor.

However, there are downsides to this. 1) If a student is pushed into instructing too soon, he/she may believe that their personal, current level of instruction is "the form", and so that instruction becomes institutionalzed, especially if the student starts a new branch. 2) It can frustrate students when they are asked to change their previous form because the old one isn't needed any more. I believe this may lead the leadership at the TTCS to discourage the practice of stepping outside the form, and as a result, some instructions might become institutionalized as "the form". 3) Related to this, a number of students believe that the TVOntario book and movie represent "the form", but it is just a guide for beginners.

In short, I don't think that anyone should look at someone doing TTCS form and assume it's a good example of what Mr. Moy was capable of teaching. That student may be stepping outside the form at that point in time.

Regarding insularity, my advice to TTCS members would be: keep your eyes open, and read a lot about the basic principles of Tai Chi such as rooting, alignment, and so on ... from other sources.

My 2 cents. Thanks for reading ...

 

[DaPoets]

Thanks Mograph!

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Because it is a religious organization... I thought I was clear on that. "Taoist" Tai Chi and yet the TTCS practices a combination of the 3 religions (Confusianism, Buddhism, Taoism).

You're not getting the point. It's supposed to be a religion but as you say 95% of the people involved don't even make an attempt to study or practice the religion. Instead they study taiji.

That's just not right. It's hiding a commercial business under a religious veneer.

And I understand the business model that's being used. We have groups here in Taiwan that use it too. It's cheap but having large numbers of members that pay annual dues, seminar fees, buy uniforms, make donations to the organizations "charitable events," etc. can still rack up the bucks.