Adding a little more Yang to the Moy Taoist Style

Discussion in 'Chinese Internal Arts : Taijiquan (Tai Chi) and Qi' started by JusThis, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. JusThis

    JusThis White Belt

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    Unfortunately for many communities Taoist Tai Chi is the only thriving group available. I have read some of the older posts from 2008 and although this can be a very controversial topic I was hoping to get a little guidance.

    Three years ago as a group of 4-6 individuals we worked on the 24 Movement Yang style from DVDs - almost impossible I know, but it was gratifying. Over a year we covered about half the moves and were able to do small flows through the movements we learned before our numbers shrunk to not being viable anymore.

    Fast forward to today and there is a very large Taoist Tai Chi group close to where I live. Back in 2008 there didn't seem to be much demonstrable material available, but now there are many videos of Moy style on YouTube and a YouTube channel called "Awareness" that has "First 17 Moves of Awareness Tai Chi" and 4 break-down intro videos titled "FREE Introduction to Awareness Tai Chi" that covers the first 17 moves of the 108 Moy style very well.

    I am a senior looking to find ways to keep moving with a social group and the Taoist Tai Chi group appears, for me at least, to fill this need. Now my question is - are there some general overall pointers that one can incorporate into, for example the first 17 moves, to make one more grounded and qi friendly? In other words, are there some subtle Yang principles that could be kept in mind while doing the Moy style?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  2. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

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    I was a member for a number of years; you probably read my posts.
    Caveat: they might have changed things recently, so these might not apply, but according to the remaining members I know, things are still the same.
    1. The Moy stuff is meant to combine stretching with tai chi. In the end, you get bad stretching and bad tai chi. I recommend stretching at home or in a yoga class.
    2. Don't stretch forward or lean forward. They say that doing so stretches the spine, but they are lying or ignorant. When we lean forward, the back is contracting in order to hold up the upper body, and we cannot stretch something when it is contracting at the same time. Instead, keep the torso vertical according to Yang principles, no matter what they say.
    3. Don't go low or extreme on tor-yus: you can blow out the knee on the back leg, and a lot of ex-TTCS members have bad knees from the classes. Keep the movement small and centered, but relaxed.
    4. Don't straighten arms or legs. If they try to straighten yours, just smile and go back to what you were doing anyway.
    5. Move in a unified manner, from your center, but distribute the movement. Keep Yang Cheng-fu's principles in mind.
    6. They know nothing of Yang style, so don't mention it or ask them anything about it: keep it to yourself. TTCS actively discourages learning from other disciplines.
    7. Don't mention qi.
    8. Their bow stance is too narrow (a sword-width), so it's too unstable. If they try to correct you, just smile and do what you would do anyway.
    9. Basically, always stay centered. While they say that the extra stretching is a hallmark of the style, it's a bug, not a feature.
    Unrelated to the practice:
    • don't give them any more money than you have to. In the past, members have contributed a lot of money to a number of building projects (Poland & Florida, if I recall) with the promise that they would be used by the members. However, the TTCS has sold or leased out those properties, with no return given to the contributing members.
    • They will likely ask you to teach (for free) right away. This is an appeal to your ego. Don't take the bait: you don't need the headaches, and they will take your classes away from you without any warning if you stray from the TTCS norm. You will also be required to pay for workshops, which are not cheap.
    • the members and teachers might be fine people in smaller communities, but be wary of the Toronto/Orangeville influence.
    If it's the only place to practice Yang style, sure, but to be honest, you'd be better off in a good yoga class.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  3. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    For the record "Yang 24" is not Yang style Taijiquan. It did not come from the Yang family. It is a form based on Yang style but not developed by, sanctioned by or approved of by the Yang family.

    And based on what I know of the TTCS, I agree with mograph, you would be better off in a Yoga class

    And if there is no other choice.... get a DVD by Liang Shouyu and follow it. It will be at least as good as what I understand you get from the TTCS and Liang Shouyu actually is very good at 24 form.

    Check the Yang family site to see if there is a teacher near you
    Yang Family Directory

    You can also check the Wu Family -
    Wu family Learning Centers
    Wu Family Disciples
    Wu Family Certified Instructors

    A variation of Cheng Manching Taijquan
    William CC Chen Certified Instructors
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  4. JusThis

    JusThis White Belt

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    Thank you both for your candid replies. Much appreciated. I will investigate your links and see what turns up.
     
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  5. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

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    Liang Shouyu is in Vancouver ... in a sketchy area of town, but a big gym, if I recall. Cheap rent, I guess.
     
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  6. JusThis

    JusThis White Belt

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    Unfortunately, I am very far away from any of the locations in the links.

    I've Googled a few times and other than Taoist Tai Chi there is only a smattering of anything else so I think I'll start phoning as the tidbits that show up are out of date.

    The incentive of having a group helps a lot, but I may have to go back to learning on my own. I already have Lian Shou-yu's book and I will order his matching video as well as Helen Liang's "Simplified Tai Chi for Beginners - 24 Form" DVD which is also rated highly.
     
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    But his DVD can be sent to your house :D
     
  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Maybe you have already done this but Google
    Tai Chi Chuan
    Taiji
    Taijiquan

    See if any of those produce someone closer

    If I may ask, where are you located? Also know, if you do not want to answer that I fully understand.
     
  9. JusThis

    JusThis White Belt

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    There may be more of a chance that some Yang classes will start up in the Fall.

    I live in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada.

    EDIT: I just ordered the 2 DVDs.
     
  10. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

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    Even stuff at the YMCA (if offered) likely resembles Yang style.
     
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  11. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    There is a Sunrise Yoga in your area that offers Qigong and Taijiquan
    Classes - Sunrise Yoga Tai Chi Qi Gong Dartmouth NS

    There are also a couple other Yoga schools there and it also appears you have a couple places in your area that teach Qigong, and that might help you just as much, or more than the TTCS
     
  12. JusThis

    JusThis White Belt

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  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Give them a call, I know nothing about them, but from what I have heard about the TTCS they should be avoided if at all possible
    Hope it works out for you
     
  14. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i though Ying and yang were in balance,therefore it you get more Ying, you automatically get more yang, ?
     
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  15. JusThis

    JusThis White Belt

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    You don't want Yang fire overwhelming your Yin. LOL

    Anyway, thank you all for your guidance. It helped me make up my mind in which direction I should be heading.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    By holding 2 bricks in your hands while you are doing your Yang form can give you "Yang".
     
  17. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

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    Uh, no. More yin = out of balance. Yang needs to be added to restore balance.

    You know it's a metaphor, right?
     
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  18. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    are you saying Yin and yang arnt real ?
     
  19. Ching Chung Kwai

    Ching Chung Kwai White Belt

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    Thanks for all your comments. I wish to share my experience and contribute to this learning. The following is my understanding based on practising Taoist Tai Chi for 26 years. I have never been an instructor. I was at the same workshop as East Winds in 1994 where Lin-Shin Moy, Eva Wong and Siu-Lan Kwan were present.

    Yang family Tai Chi practitioners are naturally very passionate and concerned about preserving the form and intention. Taoist Tai Chi is no threat. It has been described by Dr K. Foxx as a 108-Yang Tai-chi-LHBF-form (Foxx, 2019). The fundamental movements of the Tor-Yu and Don-Yu seen in this 108 form are also in Southern Yi Quan (Tang, 2012). The biomechanical principles are the same. Zhan Zhuang can also be practised in many classes.

    As the Tor-Yu is seen to be incompatible with the first of Yang Cheng Fu's ten essential principles of Taijiquan, I thought I would offer the follow explanation of what is going on. My understanding is that high quality multi-directional myofascial stretching occurs during the Tor-Yu. The rotation in the spine is combined with the Don-Yu or relaxation and dropping in the pelvic girdle in both the forward and reverse position. This produces a contracting and expanding spiralling motion throughout the spine. A muscle can also lengthen during eccentric contractions. A lean is not part of the instruction. Movements are soft and continuous. In the forward position, the arms are out with the shoulders and elbows relaxed and down. I feel an even stretch across the mid and lower traps, lats, thoracolumbar aponeuroses and glutes. The overall effect in the Tor-Yu cycle can be likened to gently wringing out a wet tea towel, with the interstitium being massaged and the interstitial fluid and Qi being circulated and directed as a result. From day one, the instruction has been to protect the knee joint from misaligned weight transfer.

    Moy’s LHBF (Zhu Ji) teacher Leung Tse Peng was a student of Wu Yi Hui, Yu Peng Shi and Jiang Xin Shan (Kwan, 2013a). Moy’s teacher and friend Sun Di studied Tai Chi with Dong Ying Jie and Chen Wei Ming (Kwan, 2013b). My understanding is that Moy Lin Shin did not give himself the title of master, this is something his students called him in recognition of his neijia skills and monastic training. He dedicated his life to help others.

    The medical advisers to the Society are/were Dr Bruce McFarlane and Dr Elliot Kravtiz. In the UK, the current TTCS GB president is an NHS physiotherapist and part of a specialist team in pain management.

    I have never encountered any restrictions on learning from other internal or external martial arts schools. Some FLK TTC instructors previously came from an external martial arts background. Instructors are not teachers. Members do not pay for a service but to support the aims and objectives. We all help each other out. “What do you feel?” is a key question asked regularly during classes to develop mindfulness and sensitivity.

    FLK is educational. It seeks to preserve the ancient knowledge passed down from generation to generation. FLK provides social welfare, translates key texts from the Taoist canon and offers opportunities to learn meditation and chanting. It observes Chinese festivals, rituals and ceremonies. FLK is a compassionate international organisation that seeks to reduce suffering in the world. In that sense, it has similar aims to Yuen Yuen Institute and Sik Sik Yuen Wong Tai Sin in Hong Kong. FLK does not exclusively own Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist knowledge. Taoist Tai Chi is a vehicle for health recovery and to develop understanding of our internal and external environment or universe. It does not claim to be better than other systems.

    Hope you got on ok JusThis.

    Best wishes!


    References

    Foxx, K. (2019), ‘Names Forms and Relations’, WaterSpirit-6x8 websitehttp://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com/id58.html (Accessed 13.09.19)

    Kwan, B. (2013a), ‘The Biography of Master Liang Zi Peng’ in ‘Yiquan Master Liang Zi Peng - Bruce Lee's Internal Art Master’, Be Not Defeated by the Rain blog. Available online at: http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot.com/2013/11/yiquan-master-liang-zi-peng-bruce-lees.html?view=flipcard#!/2013/11/yiquan-master-liang-zi-peng-bruce-lees.html (Accessed 13.09.19)

    Kwan, B. (2013b), ‘Liang Zi Peng Spreads Yiquan to the South’ in ‘Yiquan Master Liang Zi Peng - Bruce Lee's Internal Art Master’, Be Not Defeated by the Rain blog. Available online at: http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot.com/2013/11/yiquan-master-liang-zi-peng-bruce-lees.html?view=flipcard#!/2013/11/yiquan-master-liang-zi-peng-bruce-lees.html (Accessed 13.09.19)

    Tang, C.S. (2012), ‘Three Treasures of Southern Yiquan’, Neija Tao blog. Available online at: https://neijiatao.wordpress.com/2012/02/ (Accessed 13.09.19)
     
  20. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    Did you read the Jade Cloud Alchemist's posts he is my hero:D

    If you are looking for more Yang principles you won't find them in Taoist Tai Chi in fact they contradict them.
    Yang Cheng Fu's 10 Essential Principles | Tai Chi Online Classes
    You can also learn Yang style online:D (note I was just looking for 10 principles not really an online Yang form and I am not a Yang guy)

    I guess Xue Sheng's recommendation of Sunrise is ok whatever the Fuc% Zen Wellness Qi Gong Instructor (500 hour – silver coin) is:rolleyes: I guess 1000 is a gold coin:p

    Whatever you do if you want more grounded and Qi friendly practicing zhan zhuang would be good.

    Ching Chung Kwai sounds like a Taoist Tai Chi brochure, I do miss East Wind though nice guy.
    123
     

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