Tang Soo Do or Soo Bahk Do?

[Reed]

I also agree, this is from martial art talk.com

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=223189

The year 1955 signaled the beginning of Taekwondo as a formally recognized martial art in Korea. As previously mentioned, in the 1950's, General Choi Hong Hi had developed and was teaching a new style of Taekkyon he called Taekwondo to the Korean army, air force, and police. At the time, his Taekwondo was a merely Korean version of Shotokan Karate that he had learned in Japan.
On April 11, 1955, a special board composed of many martial arts grand masters (such as Chung-Do-Kwan instructors Duk Sung Son and Jong Myun Hyun, archeologists, historians, and prominent leaders met to develop a new name for Tae-soo-do. At this meeting, General Choi, as the established head of the Chung-Do-Kwan, proposed that the new art should be called Taekwondo. Duk Sung on says that he passed a piece of paper to Choi suggesting the name and that Choi took credit for it. Since Taekwondo translates to "tae" meaning a kick or strike with the foot, "kwon" meaning a punch or strike with the fist, and "do" meaning the way of, it described the arts use of strikes using both hands and feet. The name Taekwondo was unanimously adopted by the board. At first, President Rhee rejected the name, preferring to use the name Taekkyon, but Choi convinced him that Taekwondo was a better name for the new art.

 

[try81]

I do

I am in the WTSDA under JC Shin. Although Shin has been proclaimed a Grandmaster, he always gives utmost respect to his instructor Hwang Kee. So maybe I can consider Hwang Kee my Great-Grandmaster. However, I have no loyalty to Moo Duk Kwan

 

[try81]

It is unclear that General Choi ever called his art Tang Soo Do. From the documents I have found online, it seems that Choi was totally against the name Tang Soo Do as it was too Japanese in flavour. Hence his total commitment in changing the name of the martial art of Korea to one that was more Korean?? Hence the institution of Tae Kwon Do. Of all the original kwans, only Hwang Kee stood alone and refused to join the Tae Kwon Do fellowship. This seems to be for political reasons as General Choi was dictating in regards to the Technical Advisory membership, of which Hwang kee was purposely omitted by Choi. The rest can be said is history.

Japanese in flavor? You must mean Chinese. T'ang was a dynasty in China. Hwang Kee did this out of respect for his training in the Chinese arts

 

[Galvatron]

That is a common misconception.
Hwang Kee did not coin the term "Tang Soo Do".
"Tang Soo" is the Korean pronounciation for the characters that spell "Kara Te". "Tang Soo Do" is basically how you say "Karate-Do" in Korean, nothing more. To take it a step further, "Kara-Te" roughly translates to "China Hand" in Japanese, and in Korean "China Hand" is pronounced "Tang Soo".

Here is a link to an interview that General Choi did with TKD Times, where by his own admission he referred to his style as "Tang Soo", atleast for a while.

 

[Makalakumu]

Galvatron

The link didn't come through. Do you still have it? I would be interested in reading that article.

upnorthkyosa

 

[dosandojang]

No, Grand Master Won Kuk Lee did.

 

[Galvatron]

Galvatron

The link didn't come through. Do you still have it? I would be interested in reading that article.

upnorthkyosa

Sorry! Might have helped had I actually included the link, huh?? Doh! :idunno:

Here ya go

http://www.geocities.com/tkd_unknown/44.html

 

[Knifehand]

Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand.

 

[Makalakumu]

Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand.

A little lesson...

Tang = Tang Dynasty = China
Soo = Hand
Do = Way

Tang Soo Do = Tang Hand Way = China Hand Way

Now, here is something interesting...

Karate-Do

Kara = China
Te = Hand
Do = Way

Karate-Do = China Hand Way

hmmmmmmm..........

upnorthkyosa

 

[shesulsa]

A little lesson... upnorthkyosa

Tang = Tang Dynasty = China AND Kara = China
Soo = Hand AND Te = Hand


hmmmmmmm..........

So, Tang and Kara both mean China.
And Soo and Te both mean hand.

I thought Karate meant "empty hand" in Japanese?

 

[Makalakumu]

Tang = Tang Dynasty = China AND Kara = China
Soo = Hand AND Te = Hand


hmmmmmmm..........

So, Tang and Kara both mean China.
And Soo and Te both mean hand.

I thought Karate meant "empty hand" in Japanese?

Duel meanings for both of them. Haven't you ever wondered where the term "Korean Karate" is derived?

 

[Knifehand]

Duel meanings for both of them. Haven't you ever wondered where the term "Korean Karate" is derived?

My girlfriend's parents have both taken the Cho Dan test. I over at their house one night, and they were studying. They told me what Tang Soo Do ment. they had a study guide with all the correct information on it. They told me it ment Art of the Knife Hand. But literally translated,Tang Soo Do means "Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand. " In other words Knifehand.

I've seen many translations that have China Hand...but it is Knifehand. My Style, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, teaches us that it means Art of the Knifehand.

Man, i repeat myself a lot.... damn... sorry about that...

 

[Makalakumu]

My girlfriend's parents have both taken the Cho Dan test. I over at their house one night, and they were studying. They told me what Tang Soo Do ment. they had a study guide with all the correct information on it. They told me it ment Art of the Knife Hand. But literally translated,Tang Soo Do means "Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand. " In other words Knifehand.

I've seen many translations that have China Hand...but it is Knifehand. My Style, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, teaches us that it means Art of the Knifehand.

Man, i repeat myself a lot.... damn... sorry about that...

The difference we experiencing all goes back to how the character "soo" is drawn. It can be many things. Those subtleties one things that translations from Korean to English miss.

 

[Galvatron]

Again, if you take the chinese characters for "KaraTe-Do" and pronounce them in Korean, you get "Tang Soo Do".
I'm sorry to contradict two 1st dans and a study guide, but I've had it laid out for me and explained in person by my grandmaster, a real-life living, breathing grumpy old Korean.

Shesulsa- To answer your question as best that I can; it is my understanding from the Karateka I've known (and from what I've read), that Gichin Funakoshi more or less "changed" the translation of what Karate meant. Originally it meant "China Hand", and he basically up and said "Nope it now means 'Empty Hand'". I'm not entirely certain how a person can change the meaning of a translation, but that's what i've gotten from my research.
China Hand, in Korean is "Tang Soo"
Empty Hand, in Korean is "Kong Soo"

 

[Makalakumu]

Again, if you take the chinese characters for "KaraTe-Do" and pronounce them in Korean, you get "Tang Soo Do".
I'm sorry to contradict two 1st dans and a study guide, but I've had it laid out for me and explained in person by my grandmaster, a real-life living, breathing grumpy old Korean.

Shesulsa- To answer your question as best that I can; it is my understanding from the Karateka I've known (and from what I've read), that Gichin Funakoshi more or less "changed" the translation of what Karate meant. Originally it meant "China Hand", and he basically up and said "Nope it now means 'Empty Hand'". I'm not entirely certain how a person can change the meaning of a translation, but that's what i've gotten from my research.
China Hand, in Korean is "Tang Soo"
Empty Hand, in Korean is "Kong Soo"

Nice explanation... :asian:

 

[Knifehand]

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan teaches it as Art Of the Knifehand - Institute of Military Virtue. From Grandmaster CS Kim (president of the International Tang Soo Do Federation) to Us (the students,four degrees removed) thats what it is, in our style.

I am really curious as to what version of Tang Soo Do you all study...there are five different forms.

 

[Galvatron]

The International Tang Soo Do Federation is not the Moo Duk Kwan. It is a break-away organization from the Moo Duk Kwan, as is the TSD organization I came up under. I have a Moo Duk Kwan training manual dated 1978 that shows the translation as being "Way of the China Hand". The "Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" does not even exist anymore, as it is now the United States Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.
Moo Duk Kwan translates as "School of Martial Virtue" there is a difference between 'Martial' and 'Military'.

What are these "Five Different forms" of Tang Soo Do?

 

[Knifehand]

First off... The ITF represents a realm of styles Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is not an organization but a form or style of Tang Soo Do. "The Moo Duk Kwan" as you put it is not what i was referring to.
(correction, there are 6 styles, 5 others + Moo Duk Kwan)



Modern History
The subsequent occupation of Korea by the Japanese military regime took place from 1909 to 1945. During this period, practicing and teaching of martial arts was restricted.

After World War II, 1945, this restriction was lifted. Several martial arts training schools were erected at that time as follows.

Moo Duk Kwan by Hwang Kee
Chi Do Kwan by Kwai Byung, Yun
Chung Do Kwan by Duk Sung, Son
Song Moo Kwan by Byung Jik, No
Chang Moo Kwan by Nam Suk, Lee
Yun Moo Kwan by Sang Sup, Chun

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My Style, Moo Duk Kwan, Created by Hwang Kee, teaches that Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand, or Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand (Knifehand represents this). As stated before, the ITF represents TSDMDK. You are right, MDK does mean Institute of Military Virtue.​

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Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan IS NOT Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan nor are the names synomymous for eachother.​

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American Tang Soo Do usually does not teach or even talk about the other styles, so i am not surprised about the apparent lack knowledge on the issue​

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Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is a traditional style from Korea.​

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Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Does exist as I am a student of TSDMDK (in the States, no less) and I am not the only student in my dojang.​

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I suggest you recheck your sources because you have been severly misinformed.​

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[Makalakumu]

There are many more splinter groups then just those six liniages listed. A lot of people belonged to this or that federation, but do not belong to it any more, yet they still pay their respects to the founder of their arts. It would be an interesting thread to put politics aside and really analyze what Tang Soo Do is.

 

[Knifehand]

There are many more splinter groups then just those six liniages listed. A lot of people belonged to this or that federation, but do not belong to it any more, yet they still pay their respects to the founder of their arts. It would be an interesting thread to put politics aside and really analyze what Tang Soo Do is.

I really want to get to long and short of this one.... i think i'll do just that....