Tang Soo Do or Soo Bahk Do?

[Makalakumu]

If you train in TSD, how do you connect with Hwang Kee? Do you acknowledge him as the founder of your system? I realize this question is highly political and I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get some perspective from other TSD groups out there. I myself trained in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan until 1st gup. Then my instructor pulled out of the federation because he felt that it stifled the creativity of students and that it wasn't really doing anything to make our school better..

 

[arnisador]

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7256

There have been other discussions along these lines as well!

 

[Galvatron]

The organization I am affilited with broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan back in 1982.
I acknowledge Hwang Kee as the founder of the MDK, but not as the founder of Tang Soo Do, as there were multiple instructors at the time using the name Tang Soo Do as the style taught by their Kwan.
I've read an interview with General Choi where he says that even he called the style he taught to the military "Tang Soo" before he came up with the name Taekwon-Do.

 

[Makalakumu]

That is interesting. I've never heard that before. I've always been taught that ALL Tang Soo Do comes from Hwang Kee.

 

[JoeJ]

Tang Soo and Kong Soo are the Korean pronounciations for Kara Te, and were in wide use.

Hwang Kee first called his style Hwa Soo Do, but his first few schools failed. As Tang Soo Do was the popular terms, he picked up the forms and name and began teaching it also.... the rest is history.

Lee Won Kuk was the first to use the term Tang Soo Do in 1944, Hwang Kee didn't use the term for several years after that (I believe in 1947).

Hope this helps

 

[Makalakumu]

Are Lee Wan Kuk and Hwang Kee connected in any way? Did they train together? Something else?

 

[Mithios]

I have heard that Hwang Kee trained at Won Kuk Lee's dojang before founding the Moo Duk Kwan. Mithios

 

[Makalakumu]

The Soo Bahk Do guys I know would be screaming if they heard that. Post it on their board and flame away....

 

[Mithios]

Won Kuk Lee also said it in an interview in TKD times. year before last i think. I will dig around and see if i can find it in this mess. How about you post it wooweee LOL , Mithios

 

[JoeJ]

Hwang Kee and Lee Won-kuk were friends, and I do believe Hwang trained with him for a short while.

The Moo Duk Kwan was founded before he trained with Lee. I believe he was getting coaching on how to do the Pyung-ahn forms properly, as that was not in Hwang's background - but of course was Lee's.

Hwang admitted that after talking to Lee, he decided to also use the name TangSooDo and switch to using the Okinawan Karate forms as Lee and the others were all doing.

 

[Len Losik]

If you train in TSD, how do you connect with Hwang Kee? Do you acknowledge him as the founder of your system? I realize this question is highly political and I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get some perspective from other TSD groups out there. I myself trained in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan until 1st gup. Then my instructor pulled out of the federation because he felt that it stifled the creativity of students and that it wasn't really doing anything to make our school better..

You've brought up a common misunderstanding about Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Tang Soo Do is a much larger style than Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. There are Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwan) schools over over the world. They are generally hard to find, generally taught at recreation centers, YMCA's, etc. by instructors that are dedicated to the art and not money.

Soo Bahk Do is the latest name Grandmaster Hwang Kee used to define his style that always underwent continuous changing. It is no longer related to Tang Soo Do but MAY be close to Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

Best Regards,

Len Losik

 

[glad2bhere]

Am I to understand that the actual material taught in these two arts (MDK and TSD) are essentially the same and the differences are more political or personality driven? The reason I ask is it seems that differences in various "styles" seems to have a whole lot more to do about the teaching or organizational priorities than ever in the actual execution of techniques. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Makalakumu]

You've brought up a common misunderstanding about Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Tang Soo Do is a much larger style than Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. There are Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwan) schools over over the world. They are generally hard to find, generally taught at recreation centers, YMCA's, etc. by instructors that are dedicated to the art and not money.

Soo Bahk Do is the latest name Grandmaster Hwang Kee used to define his style that always underwent continuous changing. It is no longer related to Tang Soo Do but MAY be close to Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

Best Regards,

Len Losik

TSD schools unrelated to the MDK are not so hard to find. In my area, we have quite a few. I have met the instructors and trained with them and gone out and talked about the differences. All of the people I've talked to were connected in some way to Hwang Kee. SBD is an organization created to standardize TSD technique because the Grandmaster felt that it was getting bastardized. Otherwise, SBD is/was TSD at one time or another. The reasons for the splintering vary depending on who you talk to. The most common theme was Hwang Kee's insistance of promoting his own son as grandmaster above his senior students. This move drove them to create their own organizations and sometimes create their own histories...

 

[glad2bhere]

That theme just never seems to die, does it. Daddy starts a business and wants to pass it along to the son. In Hapkido we have the same thing with Yong Sul Choi and his family, with In Sun Seo and his family and probably would have seen the same thing with Joo Bang Lee and HIS family (if there had not been a falling out between Dad and son). The Kempo people and the Isshin-ryu people had the same problem and even the DRAJJ despite having a written document!!

You know I don't mind Koreans playing at adopting the Japanese Ryu-ha system if thats what they want to do, However I wish they would either do it right, or not do it at all----- one of the other. These half-a$$ed attempts really screw people up, ya know? If you are going to have a family run sole-proprietary business, then OK-- tell everyone thats your intention and do it along those lines. Don't call it a "federation" or an "association" and don't apply for incorporation. Those are all very different. Don't even get me started on For-profit and Not-for-profit organizations!

On the other hand, if you DO apply for incorporation and represent oneself as a "federation" or "association", then, by-gawd, write-up your by-laws, establish your board and leadership and agree that everyone from sonny down to the janitor have a fair crack at influencing things according to their ability.

I think one of the biggest problems with many of these Korean organizations is that they use many terms inter-changeably in an effort to approximate Western institutions but without actually understanding the philosophical underpinnings. A federation is not the same as an association, and a corporation is not the same as a sole proprietorship.

Now I don't have a problem if someone wants to do things the "old-fashioned way" and I don't mind if people want to try some new organizational model. But this sitting on the fence and calling one thing by some other name and acting yet in a third fashion is a real pain in the tush!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

I actually train in 3 styles of Moo Duk Kwan. I have a 4th Dan in Soo Bahk Do under GM Ivanhoe Kim, a 5th Dan under Young Ik Han in Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan for both), and a 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do (Young Ik Han).

 

[Moo D]

From my understanding, the Moo duk kwan is really the style of Tang Soo Do taught by Hwang kee. The Chung do kwan style by Won Kuk Lee was essentially okinawan Kara-te by Lee's own admission.

From my research it seems that Hwang Kee founded his version of Tang Soo Do when he realised that his style name Hwa Soo Do was doomed within the current post Japanese occupation environment back in 1945. Due to the Koreans being exposed to mainly Japanese Martial Arts for a couple of generations, Hwang kee decided to rename Hwa Soo Do to the more popular Tang Soo Do. Essential creating his version of Tang Soo Do and making it the Moo Duk Kwan style.

It is unclear that General Choi ever called his art Tang Soo Do. From the documents I have found online, it seems that Choi was totally against the name Tang Soo Do as it was too Japanese in flavour. Hence his total commitment in changing the name of the martial art of Korea to one that was more Korean?? Hence the institution of Tae Kwon Do. Of all the original kwans, only Hwang Kee stood alone and refused to join the Tae Kwon Do fellowship. This seems to be for political reasons as General Choi was dictating in regards to the Technical Advisory membership, of which Hwang kee was purposely omitted by Choi. The rest can be said is history.

It seems that Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan) and Soo Bahk Do (Moo Duk Kwan) are essentially the same upto approx 5 years ago, when as I believe from some of the current US Soo Bahk Do members, a decision was made to remove all Japanese based Hyungs and replace them with the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro hyungs. I still believe that this has still yet to take place.

Whatever happens, the Moo Duk Kwan Style will be distinctive from other styles of Tang Soo Do.

Tang Soo!!

Steve

 

[dosandojang]

I believe Gen. Choi did call his TKD "Tae Soo Do" for a brief time, but earged the other Kwans to all join as one, and change the name to "Tae Kwon Do".

 

[Moo D]

From the transcripts that I have seen online, it seems that the rest of the Kwans without General Choi changed their names to Tae Soo Do, whilst Gneral Choi was overseas with the army. When General Choi returned, he was angered that the name Tae Kwon Do was not used and urged all kwan Heads to revert back to the Tae Kwon Do name that he had suggested.

General Choi would not have used Tang Soo Do as he considered it was too Japanese, even though all of his martial training was in Japanese Kara-te. It seems that because of General Choi's insistance over the name Tae Kwon Do, this gave another reason for Hwang Kee to stand fast and remain as the only kwan teaching Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do, when all other Kwan Heads renamed their art as Tae Kwon Do.

Tang Soo!!

 

[Kodanjaclay]

To go one step further, it would appear that this is why the ITF was founded, and one of the reasons that Choi found himself persona non grata within the ROK TKD world.

 

[Moo D]

I agree Master Clay,

General Choi founded the ITF due to the refusal of other Kwan heads to ratify his credentials in TaeKwonDo. He was out of favour with the South Korean government as well. IT seems that the TKD community which he had unified in the early Fifties, had turned against him, due to that he had claimed that he had a 4th dan in TKD when in fact the evidence showed that he had a 1st Dan in Japanese Kara-te (probably Shotokan).

Never the less, General Choi has done a lot for the spread of Tae Kwon Do throughout the world and this can not be forgotten, even though his early methods seem a little dubious now.

Tang Soo!!