Tang Soo Do or Soo Bahk Do?

[Galvatron]

My Style, Moo Duk Kwan, Created by Hwang Kee, teaches that Tang Soo Do means Art of the Knifehand, or Art of the Defensive and Offensive hand (Knifehand represents this). As stated before, the ITF represents TSDMDK.
The Organization I belong to is an offshoot from the Moo Duk Kwan as well (as is the ITF), and like I said, in the MDK manual I have sitting right here in front of me (dated 1978), it says Tang Soo Do= "Way of the China Hand".

You are right, MDK does mean Institute of Military Virtue.
"Translated literally, Moo Duk Kwan means "Institute of Martial Virtue." -- This qoute was taken straight from the Moo Duk Kwan website. This is a point that is bordering on nitpicking, based upon individual interpretation of the meaning of the "Moo" character in MDK. I personally don't think GM Hwang meant it in to mean "Military" because he was not a Military man, he worked for the railroad.

Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan IS NOT Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan nor are the names synomymous for eachother.
Being that the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation is *THE* Moo Duk Kwan (you know the one that Hwang Kee founded?), and all TSD organizations that claim decedence from the MDK utlimately trace their lineage back to it, makes the above statement nothing short of absurd.

American Tang Soo Do usually does not teach or even talk about the other styles, so i am not surprised about the apparent lack knowledge on the issue
I'm not sure what you're saying here (or rather the person who sent this information to you) is trying to say here? Is he/she referring to the American Tang Soo Do Association? Or Tang Soo Do in America in general? Because many of the Kwans you mentioned previously teach here, and thrive here, they just teach under the name Tae Kwon Do now.

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is a traditional style from Korea.
No one's arguing that.



To claim that all of those Kwans are seperate styles of Tang Soo Do is grossly inaccurate, as not all of them even called their style Tang Soo Do. Some of them taught Kong Soo Do, Tae Soo Do, and Kwon Bop. The Moo Duk Kwan was originally "Hwa Soo Do" before changing to TSD.
Hell, the Yun Moo Kwan was a fricken JUDO school prior to the liberation, and the Ji Do Kwan was the Kwon Bop (karate) branch of the Yun Moo Kwan.

I suggest you recheck your sources because you have been severly misinformed

Back at ya, buddy.

 

[Makalakumu]

Let me see if I can narrow down the actual TSD Federations...

1. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan (formally Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)
2. American Tang Soo Do Federation (ATF)
3. International Tang Soo Do Federation (ITF)
4. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (UK)
5. There may be more, but I can't think of them...

Now this is where it gets confusing...

1. Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

How many other "Federations" of Korean arts incorporate either the name Tang Soo Do or Moo Duk Kwan?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Galvatron]

Let me see if I can narrow down the actual TSD Federations...

1. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan (formally Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)
2. American Tang Soo Do Federation (ATF)
3. International Tang Soo Do Federation (ITF)
4. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (UK)
5. There may be more, but I can't think of them...
I'll add a few that I know of...
6. United Tang Soo Do Federation
7. American Tang Soo Do Association
8. Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan
9. North American Tang Soo Do Association
10. Hwa Rang World Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

Now this is where it gets confusing...

1. Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

The existence of a TKD Moo Duk Kwan is the result of a split in the Moo Duk Kwan at the time of Taekwondo's inception.
The reason behind it depends on who's version of history you go off of.

 

[Knifehand]

Let me see if I can narrow down the actual TSD Federations...

1. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan (formally Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)
2. American Tang Soo Do Federation (ATF)
3. International Tang Soo Do Federation (ITF)
4. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (UK)
5. There may be more, but I can't think of them...
I'll add a few that I know of...
6. United Tang Soo Do Federation
7. American Tang Soo Do Association
8. Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan
9. North American Tang Soo Do Association
10. Hwa Rang World Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

Now this is where it gets confusing...

1. Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation

The existence of a TKD Moo Duk Kwan is the result of a split in the Moo Duk Kwan at the time of Taekwondo's inception.
The reason behind it depends on who's version of history you go off of.

Seeing that, i won't just "take your word" for it... please provide some third party links, so i can see for myself.

But... My Style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, under Grandmaster CS KIM, conflicts with every singe interpretation you have provided for what Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan really means.

If you cannot find any third party links to back your claim, I think we should just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Knifehand]

You are right, MDK does mean Institute of Military Virtue.
"Translated literally, Moo Duk Kwan means "Institute of Martial Virtue." -- This qoute was taken straight from the Moo Duk Kwan website. This is a point that is bordering on nitpicking, based upon individual interpretation of the meaning of the "Moo" character in MDK. I personally don't think GM Hwang meant it in to mean "Military" because he was not a Military man, he worked for the railroad.

QUOTE]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Martial

Martial means military....

 

[Galvatron]

Everything that I know comes from first hand accounts from various Masters (both Korean and American), and research that I've done on my own over the 18 years that I have been a student of Tang Soo Do.
I don't have any need whatsoever to bother compiling links to prove myself to a Yellow Belt. Use your internet connection and research it for yourself.
Try using the forums at www.warrior-scholar.com as a starting place, some of the most knowledgeable Tang Soo Do masters in the country populate that board.

 

[Knifehand]

Everything that I know comes from first hand accounts from various Masters (both Korean and American), and research that I've done on my own over the 18 years that I have been a student of Tang Soo Do.
I don't have any need whatsoever to bother compiling links to prove myself to a Yellow Belt.

(Note: I only talk about Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, its the only style i have insight on, you might've noticed that by now)

Oh yes you do.

If you don't provide documentation to counter my documentation, you have no base to stand on.

I want you to prove to not just this yellow belt, but to everyone else that your interpretation of history and all that jazz is right. and citing some mysterious book in your possession isn't going to cut it.

I may be an underbelt, but i know a convincing argument when i see one. And though i am an underbelt, that fact alone doesn't make me incapable of being right. I have been taught by my instructor (Mr. Cerrito), who was taught by his instructor (master Collins) who was taught by Grandmaster CS Kim, That Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Means Art of the Offensive and Defensive Hand (Knifehand) Institute of Military Virtue. I am a member of the International Tang Soo Do Federation under Grandmaster CS Kim.

1.
The Moo Duk Kwan is seperate from Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, They were created at the same time (relatively)But have evolved differently.
http://worldmoodukkwan.com/history.html

2.
Tang Soo Do does mean (art of the Offensive and Defensive Hand) in my style. I have been taught this, as well as thousands of other Dans.
http://www.mastercollins.com/terms.htm

3.
I have come across the Translation that it means China hand, and not knifehand. but that just does not make sense. Knifehand is a more accurate translation because:
A. Tang Soo Do is not from China (generally speaking, there are some influences, but not enough to name the style after china)
B. The Knifehand is an offensive and defensive movement (which matches my defintion)
C. Art of Offensive and Defensive hand describes Tang Soo Do in the most accurate light.

To say that i am wrong is just like me telling you are wrong. So instead of trying to "stick it" to me, a yellow belt; Rain upon me with your pool of knowledge.

 

[Galvatron]

Sit down Yu Gup Ja, school is in session.

I have come across the Translation that it means China hand, and not knifehand. but that just does not make sense. Knifehand is a more accurate translation because:

So because it "doesn't make sense" to you, it's wrong? Unless you can read or write Hangul (Korean), and understand how the terms are derived from Hanja (Sino-Korean/Chinese), which I can, you aren't qualified to even begin to speculate about the translation.
By the way, the Korean word for "Offense" is "Choe". Defense is "Pang-Bi"

A. Tang Soo Do is not from China (generally speaking, there are some influences, but not enough to name the style after china)
You're right, Tang Soo Do is not from China. It comes from Japan more than anywhere else, and like was said before if you translate "Karate-Do" from Japanese to Korean it is pronounced (in Korean) as "Tang Soo Do", actually more accurately it is pronounced as "Dang Soo Do". "KaraTe-Do" means "Way of the China Hand".

The Moo Duk Kwan is seperate from Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, They were created at the same time (relatively)But have evolved differently.
As was pointed out to you by someone else in the other thread you started, Anyone in this day and age that practices Tang Soo Do traces their lineage back to the Moo Duk Kwan. ALL TANG SOO DO IS MOO DUK KWAN TANG SOO DO. I can't put it any more clearly that that. The other Kwans that taught Tang Soo Do (Such as the Chung Do Kwan) changed the name of their style to "Tae Kwon Do". For instance, I train in TKD also (and hold Dan rank in it). I trace my lineage back to the Chung Moo Kwan there. The Chung Moo Kwan taught "Kwon Bop". I do not claim to hold Dan rank in Kwon Bop, as the style's name was changed to "Tae Kwon Do" during the kwan unification.

Now I have to go to class and TRAIN, so I have to cut this lesson short.
In the meantime, here's some links to keep you busy, since you don't seem to think any bit of knowledge is factual, without a URL to back it up (gosh darnit if it's on the intarweb it must be true!)

Translated literally, Moo Duk Kwan means "Institute of Martial Virtue."
http://www.soobahkdo.com/fed-web/art.htm (THE Moo Duk Kwan's site)

Today's Tang Soo Do is recognised to be based on the Moo Duk Kwan style. The Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do school was founded by Master Hwang Kee in 1945.
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~stsd/history.htm

Translation= Way of the China Hand. From the American Tang Soo Do Associate site
www.grandmasterbyrne.com

Tang: the Tang Dynasty of China; Tang generally refers to China in old Japanese
Soo: hand
Do: way of life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Soo_Do

 

[Knifehand]

Now was that so hard... i thought it would've been easier to agree to disagree. I am, still, inclined to lean toward what my style teaches...

On the other hand, i cannot look past the information you've provided. I will give it its due attention.

but i've noticed a disturbing tone in your previous threads. Such that, just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine. Yeah i might not be as schooled as you, but Gosh Darnit, you didn't need to get angry or agitated.

And because you tell me something, doesn't mean i take it as truth, its just hear-say.

 

[Knifehand]

Oh and still think that you do not understand what i mean by my style is "Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" Not Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, or Just Tang Soo Do.

"Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" - The entire name of my specific style.

Since you are not in my dojang or a Member of the PKSA or ITF i don't expect you to know what my style entails, because apparently, you need to be a Dan to know what you are talking about.

 

[shesulsa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-shesulsa
-MT Moderator-

 

[Galvatron]

but i've noticed a disturbing tone in your previous threads.

When you jump into a conversation between people far your senior and with far more experience than you do on a given subject and tell them they're wrong, because your instructor says so, what do you expect?? If it disturbs you then too bad. Walk up to a Dan holder in person and tell him/her that they're wrong about something, then come back and talk to me about 'disturbing tones'. As I said, I've been a student of Tang Soo Do for 18 years, my original instructor (my father) has been since 1978, and is a 5th Dan (hence where the MDK manual I have came from). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style.

just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine.
Not the belt, the experience that it represents. It's called "Seniority". Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you. If you stay with it long term you will eventually learn that there is much more out there than just what your instructor tells you.
I've had 4 instructors, and one them still swears to this day that it's called "Tang Soo Do" because Hwang Kee named it that in honor of the chinese master who taught him kung fu. The sad thing is that he tells his students that, and they all believe it. Because their instructor said so.

 

[Makalakumu]

When you jump into a conversation between people far your senior and with far more experience than you do on a given subject and tell them they're wrong, because your instructor says so, what do you expect?? If it disturbs you then too bad. Walk up to a Dan holder in person and tell him/her that they're wrong about something, then come back and talk to me about 'disturbing tones'. As I said, I've been a student of Tang Soo Do for 18 years, my original instructor (my father) has been since 1978, and is a 5th Dan (hence where the MDK manual I have came from). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style.

just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine.
Not the belt, the experience that it represents. It's called "Seniority". Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you. If you stay with it long term you will eventually learn that there is much more out there than just what your instructor tells you.
I've had 4 instructors, and one them still swears to this day that it's called "Tang Soo Do" because Hwang Kee named it that in honor of the chinese master who taught him kung fu. The sad thing is that he tells his students that, and they all believe it. Because their instructor said so.

Good post, Galvatron. :asian:

Since we share the same art, I know the expectations for propriety inherit in that art. Therefore, I can honestly say that if this conversation took place in the dojang, there would be hell to pay...and Galvatron would be the one to dish it out. Our training is supposed to transcend the dojang and the gup manual clearly states the protocal used when addressing other practicioners in the MDK of higher rank. Keep that in mind when you post here... :whip:

A few pointers for your continued training in the TSDMDK

1. Be respectful. Even if you disagree.
2. Ask questions only after carefull thought. Sometimes you are taught something in TSD that may take some time to actually learn. Learn the patience to accept this.
3. Everywhere you go, you carry your training with you. In the MDK your training is not just technique.

Ok, I'm off the soapbox... :asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[Knifehand]

When you jump into a conversation between people far your senior and with far more experience than you do on a given subject and tell them they're wrong, because your instructor says so, what do you expect?? If it disturbs you then too bad. Walk up to a Dan holder in person and tell him/her that they're wrong about something, then come back and talk to me about 'disturbing tones'. As I said, I've been a student of Tang Soo Do for 18 years, my original instructor (my father) has been since 1978, and is a 5th Dan (hence where the MDK manual I have came from). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style.

just because i am a yellow belt and you are Dan, your belt trumps mine.
Not the belt, the experience that it represents. It's called "Seniority". Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you. If you stay with it long term you will eventually learn that there is much more out there than just what your instructor tells you.
I've had 4 instructors, and one them still swears to this day that it's called "Tang Soo Do" because Hwang Kee named it that in honor of the chinese master who taught him kung fu. The sad thing is that he tells his students that, and they all believe it. Because their instructor said so.

I didn't say you were wrong, i said prove to me you're right. There is a difference. But my experiences are different that yours. My training, most likely, has been different than yours.

My trust is not something i just throw around. My instructor earned my trust and when he tells me something, I believe it.

Five Months into it, you don't know ANYTHING other than what your instructor has told you.

That is... a safe comment. Your probably right. But what i've been told doesn't come from my instructor. It comes from his master, and from his master's master.

). Tang Soo Do has been in my life in some way shape or form since I was THREE YEARS OLD. I may not know everything about it, but I DAMN sure know what I'm talking about. So excuse the hell out of me for getting defensive when some kid with 5 months experience jumps in and tells me I'm wrong about one of the most basic aspects of the style.

First off, if you are threatened by me, 1000 miles away, you've got issues. I refer to my above comment on you being wrong. Yes i did jump in, with my style's Definition of "Tang Soo Do".. Didn't i say, "what is the matter with you people, its Art of the Knifehand, not art of the china hand." "God...". You got defensive because i was "challenging" your translation, and you... could not see it from my point of view. I understand all to well, knowing something and a less experienced person telling me different, i know how frustrating it can be.

Since we share the same art, I know the expectations for propriety inherit in that art. Therefore, I can honestly say that if this conversation took place in the dojang, there would be hell to pay

Again, right. I know this fact. If i did walk up to him in a Dojang, and stated what i stated it would've been more respectful. but i know exactly how he would've responded. But to say that there is only one translation one meaning and that my style isn't just wrong with its translation it doesn't even exist is absurd. thats Ego right there. Plain ego. Its impossible for him to be wrong, even a little, even when a Yu Gup Ja stands in front of him.

Just like he said, an instructor he had has been wrong, teaching it the wrong way. But hes got it down 100%? Impossible.

And i said before, i was ready to agree to disagree. So that is what i am going to do.

 

[Knifehand]

Our training is supposed to transcend the dojang and the gup manual clearly states the protocal used when addressing other practicioners in the MDK of higher rank.
upnorthkyosa

Is there a manual for how a Dan is supposed to talk to Gup?

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator's Note:
Second Warning

Please keep the discussion at a MATURE, RESPECTFUL LEVEL.

Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

 

[Knifehand]

Moderator's Note:
Second Warning

Please keep the discussion at a MATURE, RESPECTFUL LEVEL.

Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

I tried to read that thread, but the link was dead...

 

[shesulsa]

Try it now.

 

[kid]

If you want to know my opinion on what Tang Soo Do means i think it means just that. Tang Soo Do you nor i have any need to know what it translates into english. In fact as far as i'm concerned it translates into Tang Soo Do and also means Tang Soo Do. Thats why all instructors that teach the style call it Tang Soo D and not some translation. What art do you train in China hand way, or Knifehand, or kick you in the head, mind numbing pain throughout your whole body? No I train in Tang Soo Do, no exeptions. Thats what my instructor calls our art and his before him. Disscusion over. bow to your opponent, touch gloves, fights over.



Cause kid said so

 

[Makalakumu]

Knifehand

I think that the confusion is coming with the character for "soo" depending on how it is drawn, it can mean hand or knifehand. For instance, there is a technique called soo do kun kyuk that we practice, or knife hand attack. "Soo" in this case means knifehand.

This does not take into account the character for "tang" though. Think about this...

I have GM Hwang Kee's book right in front of me. His translation is China Hand Way. See if your instructor has the book "Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan...Volume one" Then you can see it for yourself.

upnorthkyosa