Taegue Il Jang application

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Kong Soo Do, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I feel there is a connection between arts, if not at the technical level, then at lease at the development level of health and strength.
    You mentioned "twisting motions" of which are also in my kata based art, and are there to directly involve tendon and ligament development which in turn adds more power from within our bodies.

    I would agree that each and every move within kata is not geared toward self defense, but each and every move serves a very important function. The practice of martial arts produces a power that is unique to specific techniques within any given art.
    Could this be what instructors at the KuKKiwon are eluding to?

    My intent is to dialog, and share, not to win a war on words. Thanks in advance. :)
     
  2. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Did everyone get banned or are we just resting ??

    Oh, I forgot this...... :)
     
  3. d1jinx

    d1jinx Master Black Belt

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    Taeguek 1=Basic of all KKW Basic forms=taught to 4-60 year old beginners=white belts=basic introductory tkd movements=hidden meaning/applications?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  4. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Incredibly busy weekend :ultracool
     
  5. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I actually have a lot more 'down time' during the work week these days since my job now is running my dojang. Not too many lessons to give during the morning (yet - I hope). I'll have some comments in a few hours to Jaeimseu's question.
     
  6. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    While I agree with a lot of what you say in general, the art being a young or old person's art is completely unrelated. You are talking about a difference in teaching methodology, not in what the art itself has to offer. I don't know how many times we have to say it, but in KKW taekwondo, the sort of techniques that people are trying to extrapolate from pumse are taught in partnered drills (one step sparring) that are structured so as to make sense and build rather than being hidden movements in pumse.

    Since the pumse were not designed to layer those teachings in the same way that Goju kata are, they aren't used in that fashion.

    As for lack of posting over the weekend, I cannot speak for others, but I really don't have anything more to add to the topic. The three paragraphs of KKW bashing at the beginning kind of soured the tone of the thread anyway by guaranteeing that at least some of those who post in this section will be immediately put on the defensive.

    Not to mention that the OP has gone down this route with this topic on this form more than once and the nature of responses are pretty much the same.

    This isn't an issue of open mindedness, Seasoned. You are in the section of an art that you don't practice trying to tell us how it is. The OP and some of the respondents don't even practice the form that is being debated or the form set that it is from, but are trying to "teach" those who do practice it how it should be done and taught. That reflect being close minded, as you are unwilling to look at the art from the perspective of those who practice it and those who create it, but expect those who practice it to be open to the perspective of outsiders.

    Do you not see the problem there and why people might take exception to it?

    Why, if you are an Okinawan karateka do you stay away from karate threads may I ask?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  7. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Yes, there are many things called a block that just aren't really used as such in a chaotic fight, or even sparring. Since a reaction is always slower than the action, the most commont thing is to cover and/or avoid the incoming strike. Certain blocks that mimick normal or common movements can be used effectively. I find this similar to the horse stance and 'chambering' from the hips. Often taught, as mentioned, as a 'chambering' movement before the strike...you just don't see many people walking around in a horse stance, during a fight or in sparring with their hands chambered on their hips. So, the horse stance and the 'chambering' must therefore have a more useful, practical purpose. And they do. The horse stance of course lowers your center of gravity which is useful in a plethora of defensive and offensive techniques. The 'chambering' is grasping something, like a limb or clothing, and drawing it into your center thus off-balancing your attacker and setting them up for a plethora of techniques. When taught this way, in my experience, the student has a whole world of practical applications open to them that are useful in an altercation from standing or on the ground. From striking to grappling distance.
     
  8. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    I was out all weekend practicing my low block death touch from Taeguk Il-jang. I have it down to where I can strike you in the calf causing at least on of your testicles to explode. Still working on the other.
     
  9. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    This gave me a real deep chuckle!!! Thanks!
     
  10. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    The methodology depends upon the experience of the instructor and the focus of the school.

    ?

    As the OP I can state that no bashing was stated or issued. If it is taken that way, it is the sole issue of the one receiving it that way.

    Many topics come up often or from time to time...so what? The nature of the responses has been great, with the exception of the few that refuse to actually get into the spirit of the thread and instead drone on negatively about this or that. Actually, when you ignore this stuff the thread has been fine.
     
  11. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    This topic was extensively discussed in two other threads, including this one (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-from-forms?p=1503863&highlight=#post1503863)

    Grabs while chambering for basic taekwondo closed fist blocks? Chambering for said block with open hands? You seriously believe and practice that and say you are doing some form of Kukkiwon taekwondo? Are those some of the things that you think the pioneers of Kukkiwon taekwondo did not learn and therefore could never – out of alleged ignorance – have envisioned when creating poomsae? Are those the things you now insist we must add to Kukkiwon taekwondo, in order to fill said gaps apparently left out by the pioneers?

    What you describe here might work in the system you have created for the mayhem awaiting you in every corner, mean streets of your neighborhood and jails. That, however, is not basic Kukkiwon taekwondo kibon dongjak, which one would expect beginners to be learning. By extension it’s not part of any poom in Taeguk Il Jang and lots of other Kukkiwon poomsae.
     
  12. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    And this is a great point to look at. The originators of kata (be they Chinese or Okinawan) knew what they were doing. They wouldn't put something into a kata that was impractical. As I mentioned above, most folks just don't fight with hands chambered on hips, nor do they block as is demonstrated in a form. As you mentioned, some may use a 'modified' version, but then we've just changed the movement from the form itself. Thus these movements have better applications associated with them.

    One doesn't have to use them, but they are there for those that wish to utilize them. :)
     
  13. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Teaching methodology in most arts tends to follow how the instructors were taught, not one's personal experience outside of the art. While there are exceptions, the majority of instructors within a given art tend to use similar teaching paradigms. Since you don't practice KKW taekwondo, I wouldn't consider you a good source for how forms are generally taught in KKW schools.

    As I said earlier, I am not against finding alternative applications for movements in forms; it can be fun and if done well, can be a nice enrichment for the class, but there are much more efficient ways of teaching self defense.

    It wasn't your initial post, but it was on the first page:
    This sort of post about an art's founders by an outsider to that art would not be well received in any other art's section on this forum. For some reason, people seem to be permitted to get away with it in this section.
     
  14. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    So when are you going to start posting threads like this about the forms you actually use, whatever they are?
     
  15. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    When have I claimed to do KKW TKD? I have simply stated that since various applications do exist in karate kata, that they will also exist in any form that uses the same movement sequences.

    As I've stated previously, I don't believe the majority had the experience necessary, although I fully believe that at least a few did. Regardless, this is not the direction they chose, and that is fine. However, it doesn't mean that movement sequences don't exist simply because they don't know them, or chose not to teach them. They are simply there if one chooses to use them.

    I don't recall insisting that anyone add this to their teaching or training. Could you refresh my memory with a quote where I made this insistance please? I do recall, numerous times, as stated above, that it exists should one wish to use it. I don't see that as insistance though.

    It has nothing to do with creating a system. It was already there. And actually, it is a part of at least some schools here in the U.S., in Australia and in Europe. You may wish to contact Simon O'Neill and/or Stuart Anslow as they do teach various applications for different forms and have written as much. It has also appeared in Totally Taekwondo as well, in several articles. And once again, if one wishes not to use, recognize or teach these applications...they don't have to teach them. If one does, then it is there for them to delve into. I know my students have enjoyed it.

    :)
     
  16. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I never asked to be considered a good source for how forms are 'generally taught' in KKW schools. I'm only commenting on what is contained within the forms for those that wish to learn them/teach them. I am familiar with how they are taught in KKW schools though, which is why I choose the 'alternate application' method.

    Effectiveness of teaching SD is better determined by those with experience in SD. Kata/forms can be a rich source and quite effective for SD.
    Same answer, which I stand by completely.

    I disagree. I think some, including you, will try to make an issue of it to take away from the thread. But I stand by all I posted. It is ironic though that those same people who attempt to poo-poo the thread will then turn around and comment how nobody likes the thread or it hasn't progressed.

    I have. But this one is about this one. If you have some input on applications then post them. If not, this just isn't the thread for you and as you yourself mentioned...you have nothing else to add.
     
  17. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Well, first let me clarify. I am not a TKD practitioner. I have related before I studied for a brief period of time under Jhoon Goo Rhee. It was perhaps a year, give or take. I don't recall for sure any more as that was a long time ago. However, we really didn't do any known Hapkido moves. From what I remember, during 3 step sparing, I think we were given some responses that might have been simple Hapkido moves.

    However, since I have studied Hapkido, and taught it for a while to a few students in what was more a club than a school. One of my students was a 4th dan TKD. He would from time to time tell me that he suddenly understood a move from a form (I don't know if it was once kind or another), explaining what the move was in the form, and usually saying he had been told it was "art." Not anything practically useful.

    But it would seem Puunui has explained things very well in post #26 and 27. According to him, there are indeed basic defense techniques there, from Hapkido, but not well performed, that is changed, so it is of little value to the TKD practioner. That makes sense to me. And also bears out what I said about those moves in the form being of little value to a TKD practioner, albeit, my reasoning was probably faulty.

     
  18. d1jinx

    d1jinx Master Black Belt

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    AND HERE WE GO.

    Another your pioneers were beginners and heres how i try an prove it thread that was started, so it seems, as that main purpose.


    [​IMG]
     
  19. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Jaemimesu, you have expressed a similar opinion before. I'll try to explain my perspective(without writing a book) but the answer WILL involve discussing Goju-ryu karate since that is a martial art that uses forms extensively as its pedagogical methodology. If that means you won't have any interest in reading further, then by all means skip the rest of my post. I do hope however you and others will read on and and please do comment further if what I write doesn't make sense to you.


    Personally I am not so much into forms applications as I am into a holistic training method with forms as an integrating and connecting activity. When I studied Jhoon Rhee TKD as a kid, I always thought hyung practice was stupid. It had nothing to do with our sparring or self-defense. Truth be told, it really had little to do with our basics practice either. We rarely practiced the classical knifehand positions or the upper block in isolation, preferring more 'practical' stuff like jabs, crosses, etc. So forms definitely felt like a waste of time then to me.


    Of course I was wrong about that, but I needed the experience of training a system that used and integrated forms in a systematic fashion to open my eyes to the value of forms. This type of training goes far, far beyond Sensei telling you oh yeah you can also take this section of the kata as a hammerfist to the groin. It's rather more integrated although the level of organization may not be apparent to both the teacher and participants all the time.


    In Goju-ryu karate, everything comes back to kata somehow. I often describe it as a spoked wheel, where the individually performed kata is the middle, yet the other modes and drills of training connect directly to the heart and also to each other.
    [​IMG]


    Some of the notable 'spokes' within Goju-ryu include hojo undo, kihon, renzoku kumite, kakie, bunkai kumite, and oyo (for lack of a comprehensive term) bunkai. Please note this is not an exhaustive list - I am touching on the highlights. In my practice, each of these components are introduced and studied with diligence at each kyu and dan rank with appropriate variations and launching points for the relevant kata for the level. I am sure the information is nothing new to most of us, but please bear with me as I offer a few basic definitions for the sake of clarity and completeness.

    Hojo undo is the use of various traditional tools to develop physical strength and flexibility needed to have excellent karate. Some of the movements can be adapted to practice simultaneously blocks and strikes and thus give awareness to particular focus points like where the elbow should be tucked and such even though things like speed and liveliness are removed from the drill.


    Kihon is simply basics, since an upper block or a front kick. These are practiced in the air and upon striking pads like makiwara, kicking shields, sometimes even with light to medium contact on partners for targeting and conditioning gains. Done with partners, this is the seed of learning applications as we study, for example, the optimal way of securing an arm and then how to attack the elbow joint with the upward blocking motion. Thus, the kata tells us that we can attack the elbow like so. It is through structured kihon that we actually develop the capacity to do these fun things.


    Renzoku kumite teaches flow, speed, and accuracy. This video is a simple example of one of the earlier, more basic drills:​


    [yt]EFxpfF-FO_s[/yt]​



    Renzoku kumite drills can also be more directly connected to a particular kata, like in this example using movements from one of the beginner Goju-ryu kata: ​


    [yt]obPoDFz8khg[/yt]​



    Next, kakie is karate's answer to Wing Chun's sticky hands drills. It is also a way to teach flow and sensitivity. It's also another partner drill to practice close-in fighting techniques that frequently correspond to kata. This is an example of kakie, but as the video was from an instructional series, it is rather slow-paced and methodical. Advanced kakie practice looks nothing like it really.​


    [yt]x8l57jXXEUc[/yt] ​



    Next, you can think of bunkai kumite as formal two man kata. It is more structured than renzoku kumite and frequently follows one of the Goju kata from beginner to end, only with 2 people playing the designated attacker/defender roles switching appropriately as in the kata. Bunkai kumite can look stiff because frankly it is hard to get two people to 'master' a form so that they can run it seamlessly, but performed correctly, it should be very smooth with the surface level meaning of the kata and its practical value apparent to all. This is an example of a bunkai kumite set. I tried to find a smoother, more fluent one, but alas...​


    [yt]vTlTb-Lq0bI[/yt]​



    The oyo bunkai can be regarded as the ultimate expression of Goju once a student has trained to a level of competency in the kata using all of the above mentioned methods adapted to that particular kata. Various people disagree on the correct usage of the term, fyi, but I am using it here as many English-speaking karate-ka to mean the personal understanding of a kata, where a student can free-flow 1-to-n physical interpretations of a single sequence against another person. This is where some of you are having a bit of fun talking about secret techniques and exploding testicles and such. Suffice it to say, bunkai applications aren't that at all. ​


    As puunui has said, applications jump out at you after you study an art like hapkido. However the same can and does happen when you study karate in a structured fashion like above. Creative and effective applications derived from forms are a natural consequence of studying and practicing with a good, organized teacher - they really aren't something you have to look too hard for or shouldn't be. No 'ancient secrets'. Nothing too arcane even if you add in vital point theory. It shouldn't be contrived or unconvincing. Rather, the applications should be realistic in conception, executable for all people within a reasonable range of size and ability, and relevant and practical for usage TODAY. Good bunkai can be described as devastatingly simple and to the point.


    And forms applications are not necessarily chasing things down haphazardly either. Whether by coincidence or not, IMO the Goju-ryu kata progression is very logical. The skills and physical traits built through diligent praction of one kata becomes useful, perhaps even necessary in the next following ones. It's just not written out in easy form for digestion for us, and so if we are mediocre practitioners, we never realize the beauty and function of the system in both conception and development.


    Various researchers like Patrick McCarthy have made efforts to link traditional karate to the typical patterns of violence today (like that haymaker we've been talking about on the boards). Some might see this as modernization. I do not. I think they're really just explaining karate in a context that we in the 'modern' era can easily relate to. Karate hasn't changed really. The techniques are the same. People still punch, people still carry knives. What was useful against a punch or knife 125 years ago is still useful today.


    I have offered above an explanation for my interest in forms applications. It is not so much because they are neat or cool (they are). Contrary to being inefficient, I argue that studying forms fully actually offers a comprehensive path to building efficient physical qualities and effective fighting skills. Not necessarily in the 'get in a ring and kick butt' sense, but certainly for the usages karate was meant for, such as violence, unexpected or not, in the course of regular life. Karate was never meant to be a sport, though clearly it can be adapted to be a sport. Neither was it a military method to train soldiers and warriors. Those were systems using swords before they became rifles, right?


    Now what does all this have to do with taekwondo? To be sure, not much. TKD simply hasn't developed along the same lines as Goju-ryu karate with regard to form-based teaching, and really that's fine. If the people who created and developed taekwondo had different ways of doing things, who cares so long as they produce happy and capable students?


    Conversely, if someone wants to build on top of the poomsae/hyung layers of martial education, I think that's great too. It seems that most here are rather reasonable about it. All they are saying is that if you do that you're not practicing KKW taekwondo. Fair enough, you're not.


    Where it gets interesting is that KSD seems to be trying to engage the KKW members in discussing something they have no interest in. I understand where he is coming from with his interest in pattern applications and yet I don't know that the timing of this thread was best. Maybe it's time to talk about Pyung Ahn Chodan instead (I'd be happy to participate) or wait a few weeks/months before trying again?
     
  20. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    As I said earlier, I am not opposed to people finding applications. Having studied and taught hapkido, I would find teaching self defense via kata to be highly inefficient and cumbersome. Whether or not someone else does is between them and their students.

    I find this particular topic to be almost pointless. Not because the general question about applications in pumse is pointless, but because the form in question would be a poor choice to use. It is a very, very basic form taught to raw beginners who are not ready for advanced applications.

    Within the Taegeuk pumse, I wouldn't even begin such a process until yukjang. The first three forms, particularly the first two, do not lend themselves very well to this kind of teaching. Yukjang would be a much better candidate to begin such a process. It has open and closed hand elements and by that point, your students will have had the time to learn the basics and you will have had the time to have them work on things like falling and rolling.123
     

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