Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

[ATACX GYM]

Here's what I see when I look at the classic Sword & Hammer: an underlying set of principles that say, in essence, when grabbed from the side, turn inward and step into the attacker, and attack at two levels, high & middle/low. When I look at something purporting to be a variant of Sword & Hammer, that's what I'm looking for -- turning inward, stepping in, especially, because my training has taught me to look for movement and structure and principles, more than specific techniques. Then I'm going to look at that hand sword and hammer; why those particular techniques, what are they doing? I see a longer range attack moving on a horizontal plane, that's going to go over or along the initial grab. A hand sword or chop fits beautifully to the throat -- but could be easily adapted to a back fist, or a slap, or even a clearing motion into a wrap over the arm. That downward hammer? It's a nice fit with the natural reaction of the hand to the throat or face, and it's moving on a vertical plane. It allows you to "drop" your weight behind the attack (I suspect this is the principle Parker called "Marriage of Gravity").

So, a couple of what I'd call "consistent" variations come to my mind. The initial hand sword might become a palm/grab to the face, and the hammer fist a vertical drop, taking the face with it straight down. You might wrap and drop on the arm. It might even simply become a clearing motion when you turn and recognize that the grab was your wife or your cousin or someone else whose trachea you don't want to crush. (Incidentally -- what I read the "kenpo sense" as being is just that; the ability to recognize the nature of the grab, and then identify the person you're dealing with and scale your response appropriately.) The stepping and basic pattern remains the same; an inward turn, a horizontal plane attack, moving into a vertical plane attack.

And, of course, this won't work "right" if the attack is significantly different. A push rather than a more static grab or pull will make you want to step out and away. A grab from behind rather than the flank will need a different step; by the time you spin that far around, it'll be too late. But, then, you need a different principle for a different situation, don't you?

This is a excellent response! Good job man.


Okay here we go...


...when I see a tech? ANY tech? The very first things that I look for are functional attack and functional response. There can not be a reliable application of tech under pressure if the attack isn't functional [ an attack effectively employed in the real world ] and no matter how well the counterattack is crafted to said dysfunctional attack? The counterattack is also dysfunctional to some significant degree because the attack is dysfunctional. This is the first thing that the flawed expression that becmae the Sword and Hammer Ideal TECHNIQUE failed.

The attack isn't remotely realistic. In the real world, the attacker's grab has energy and his punching attack oftentimes comes simultaneously with the grab or splintered seconds thereafter. The energy of the attack--whether he pulls you places you or locks you in place--WILL compromise your response. The fantasy of a preemptive strike with Sword and Hammer under these conditions are nearly 100% nil.

Furthermore, the attacker may choose to seize you ANYWHERE...like from the back, by your neck, by your wrist, your biceps, he may tackle you...and belabor you with blows. The idea that responding with Sword and Hammer under only one set of inflexible circumstances and changing this one set of circumstances also mandatorily changes the technique is empirically untrue. What changes is the ATTACKER'S LOCATION. Maybe even the ATTACKER'S CHOICE OF ATTACK. Now you have to train your Sword and Hammer to respond to that kind of attack and/or his new location too. A boxer's jab is still a jab if he jabs you in the face or the stomach, if he slips a cross and hook and counters with a jab, or if you punch him from behind or the side, he rolls with the blow and counters with...a jab. The more situations and circumstances that the boxer can deploy a spot on, snappy, fast,stunning or KO blast of a jab? The BETTER the boxer's jab is. Well...the more situations and circumstances that the Kenpoist can deploy a spot on, snappy, fast, stunning or KO blast of a Sword and Hammer? The BETTER the kenpoist's Sword and Hammer is.

 

[ATACX GYM]

uh, i hate to break it to you, but I have been saying "whatever" gasm since a 1999 episode of Buffy the vampire slayer. The character Xander referres to an episode of ghost haunting as a "poltergasm"

been using it ever since.

let me blunt here RAS

I havnt seen anything from you I would want to copy, or repete. Simply put, you aint that impressive.

You sure haunt my threads alot for somebody you're not impressed with. Whenever I put up a thread? Soon enough it will be haunted by a Twin Fist "poltergasm".

And uh... hate to break it to you. You can say that you said alot of things since 1999. But nobody here cares. On THIS site? You have a sig suspiciosly like another guy's who had his sig before you did by about 6 years. And you started saying "gasm" after I'd been posting such for about a year. And I've been saying [ choose a word]-"gasm" and "riffic" and other stuff since Scooby doo and Fangpuss. You're constantly tooting you're own horn. BO-RING.

 

[Twin Fist]

so those 172 techniques that Ed Parker created..that was all wrong

all the 10's of thousands of bb's, masters and grandmasters? they ALL got it wrong

the only true voice of kenpo is a no name no one's ever heard of

hmm, lets see, the entirety of EPAK bb's

or

ras the self proclaimed superman


tough call.


wait, lets not get retarded.

And even the quotes from Doc, repeted over and over and over and over dont say what is being claimed that they say.

Doc says the response was supposed to follow principals, but not be set?

"These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed "

of course that quote from Doc contradicts this one:

"In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, "

the attack however WAS set. and apparently the response was set, at least in terms of what was to be taught as a training device

you see when people change the attack, they are changing everything, weather they are too lazy or stupid to come up with new names for thier expression or kenpo or not.

Doc himself teaches those non-functional techniques, all of them, so either Doc is a hypocrite, which i know he isnt, or superman missed the point.

I think What Doc was saying, is exactly what I said:

" the techniques are just options, metaphors to teach you lessons, once you learn the lessons, you dont need the techniques."

this isnt a license to make up new techniques it is instead a promise that once you have mastered the lessons from the techniques you will be able to craft your own "ideal"

it certainly isnt an ok to make up new techniques and be too friggin lazy to at least rename them

 

[Twin Fist]

you a sad sad dude. I hope you get the help you need.

You sure haunt my threads alot for somebody you're not impressed with. Whenever I put up a thread? Soon enough it will be haunted by a Twin Fist "poltergasm".

And uh... hate to break it to you. You can say that you said alot of things since 1999. But nobody here cares. On THIS site? You have a sig suspiciosly like another guy's who had his sig before you did by about 6 years. And you started saying "gasm" after I'd been posting such for about a year. And I've been saying [ choose a word]-"gasm" and "riffic" and other stuff since Scooby doo and Fangpuss. You're constantly tooting you're own horn. BO-RING.

 

[ATACX GYM]

you a sad sad dude. I hope you get the help you need.

Here is a significant part of the reasoning and personal experiences that informed my personal expression of THE ATACX GYM SWORD AND HAMMER, taken from my post on KenpoTalk.com a long time ago.



"

Re: Atacx gym sword and hammer pt. 2 w/choke (r.d.l.)

Originally Posted by jdinca
It looked like you were stretching to make sure you had a hammer and sword in there.

I like the escape though.




That's a reasonable supposition right there,man.But I wasn't stretching to keep the S&H in there.When I first started testing this against escalating resistance? I first looked to see if a S&H was needed,and what benefits arose from using specifically the handsword and hammerfist in that tech.I wasn't keeping the tech in there just to keep it.The first logical place for the insertion of the S&H came in the transition escape from the tie up (in this case,it started with a shoulder grab but I had the grip migrate all over the place and tested it against taller people,shorter folks,strikers,grapplers,armed folks,etc etc.Taller guys grabbed me by the nape of the neck and other "anatomical handles" that were more presentable to them due to their height; wrestlers and football players would hammer then shoot and/or tie up and shoot,judoka would add judo throws and locks to what the wrestlers did,streetfighters would punch punch and then tie up for street fighters/untrained folks the grip leading to the classical S&H counter would happen in the midst of a flurry Hockey punch style,strikers would strike no matter what,etc etc etc).No matter who the attacker was,after you pivoted to the outside of his gripping arm,a hammerfist to the outside of the forearm of their gripping hand produced the best chance of making him release...whether you're a short girl or studly lion...and secondarily? The hammerfist action had the best results regarding compounding a painful strike with a disarm and displacement of the opponent.I married the hammerfist with the motion of our outward block,and deliberately slammed my forearm as hard as I could into the area between the backside of my opponent's abductor pollicis longus and his flexor pollicis longus (been YEEEAAARRRSS since I wrote that word down and it wasn't in my college papers or my old skool martial arts training and idea notebooks) which is a fancy way of saying a specific strip of area between his wrist and elbow.I found that not only did this work well even against quite strong taller athletic people like my friend Khai when they grabbed me full force,but I also found that my shorter students and especially my female students tended to strike higher up on the limb grasping them--closer to the wrist with the hammerfist+outside whipping forearm shiver of a block,lower on the tricep muscle group due to their shorter limbs and stature--so they could access these points between wrist and elbow better than pretty much any other targeted spot that one can easily counterattack under those circumstances.

At first I almost eliminated the handsword from this tech.I almost called it THE HAMMER AND SALUTE,because at first I was using the palm strike against the area between the elbow and the tricep.It did a good job of propelling the offending grasping limb away from me and my students,plus I noted that it had the added advantage of turning our opponent's back more toward us.Which I loved.Thought airythang was gravy...until I noted that the body alignment necessary to put real juice in a palm heel strike took away from the body alignment needed to put real juice in a forearm shiver of a outside block.At first I was letting that ride too...until one day in class,Sheree got her hair caught while she was turning and whipping out the block+palm heel.Her sparring partner released his grip on her shoulder,but NOT her hair.He wound up yanking her noggin,her neck and the rest of her body followed,and she got whooped on.Then something similar happened to DeMarcus.So I really sat down and went over the specific options available; with my first action being to go right back to the source material.I immediately applied the handsword to the tricep region,and I discovered that when you put actual stank funk on that handsword along with the forearm shiver of a outside block? Not only did the body mechanics align themselves in such a way so that each tech synergistically amped the power of the other, the handsword to the tricep really weakens the grip ( even if you do the tech wrong ) and more likely than not the handsword to the tricep MAKES THE GRIPPING HAND SPASM OPEN. You WILL escape almost anyone's grip. Not even kidding. Try it out yourself. Extend your left arm straight out from your shoulder like you're punching the wall or the air or about to make the universal stiff arm+open palm sign for "STOP". Then form a tight fist...in fact? You can squeeze a tennis ball or racquetball as hard as you can to make the point crystal clear. Then take your right hand and pop your lower tricep with a half power ridgehand. IMMEDIATELY you'll feel the power of your grip on the ball or your tight fist weaken,and you'll feel that tingle run down from your tricep to your left pinkie. And you did allat with just a wakk ridgehand from absolutely super wakk body alignment,no torque,no breath,no follow through,no Directional Harmony. If you threw a genuine stank funk nasty handsword in conjunction with the whipping outside block of a forearm shiver with proper body alignment which also capitalized upon the kinetic energy of both you AND your opponent? THE HAMMER AND SWORD WILL END THE THROWDOWN 90% OF THE TIME. It not only propels the BG away and takes his grabbing arm away from him, not only does his brain recognize that shock and responds to the trauma in a specific predictable way which always delays your opponent's response, guys....since his grabbing arm is now toast...there is an open lane to handswording or backfisting his throat if he's still within arm reach. And you will note that I do exactly that along with applying the hammerfist. The placement of the hammerfist in my varinat is ALSO VERY DELIBERATE in every regard, with knowledge of the human anatomy dictating tech placement. I'm hitting specific targets which my studies,my experience and my student's studies and experience shows has been most sanguine to the execution of this tech in the various situations that we apply it and test it in.

Have you tried to execute Sword and Hammer AFTER you've been smacked face first into a wall and WHILE the BG is STILL PINNING YOU THERE? I have...it's part of our training process. I'd been doing it for YEARS before the ONE TIME I ever had to do it live in the field (working a special security detail at the Queen Mary circa 2006). But because I knew how to do it and insisted that my students do it too and get good at it? DeRon used it to stop himself from getting knifed after he was mugged,and L.T. taught her daughter after I taught her and that knowledge prevented her daughter from being kidnapped by some sicko who'd grabbed her backpack during an attempt to kidnap her. I've done my variant of Sword and Hammer in many situations during practice and have tested it even from The Rubber Guard and even after having to come up from the ground during multifight training (and a live multifight with weapons during the same Queen Mary incident previously referred to) entering and exiting rolls/falls,etc.

So yeah it MIGHT appear that I'm forcing the S&H,but I'm not. Thanks for the comment!!​

Last edited by ATACX GYM; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:30 PM.​

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IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN

THE FIGHT YOU ALWAYS WIN IS THE FIGHT YOU'RE NOT IN

AVOID TROUBLE;BUT IF TROUBLE IS UNAVOIDABLE? PUT TROUBLE IN TROUBLE"
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[Josh Oakley]

Interesting debate, interspersed with idiotic personal attacks on both sides.

Is it at all possible to get one without the other? Last time I checked, this is a forum for FRIENDLY discussion. I am seeing a lot of NON-FRIENDLY discussion.

And pre-emptive, "he started it" is not even an acceptable excuse for children.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Twin Fist]

see PM

 

[Aiki Lee]

Damnit. I just typed a rather lengthy and well thought out response, but then the internet froze. Great.

Instead I'll jsut sum it up. Ras Sword and Hammer is not Sword and Hammer. He can call it that, but we are comparing apples and oranges. The origial technique deals with a completely different situation and has completely different principles than Ras's technique.

Ras, I like some of your ideas even if I think mechanically they leave a lot to be desired, which just so you know is not me taking a shot at you, because my techniques still mechanically leave a lot to be desired as well. The scenario you set up is not the same scenario that the origianl technique had in mind.

 

[ATACX GYM]

"These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed "

of course that quote from Doc contradicts this one:

"In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, "

the attack however WAS set. and apparently the response was set, at least in terms of what was to be taught as a training device

you see when people change the attack, they are changing everything, weather they are too lazy or stupid to come up with new names for thier expression or kenpo or not.

Doc himself teaches those non-functional techniques, all of them, so either Doc is a hypocrite, which i know he isnt, or superman missed the point.

I think What Doc was saying, is exactly what I said:

" the techniques are just options, metaphors to teach you lessons, once you learn the lessons, you dont need the techniques."

this isnt a license to make up new techniques it is instead a promise that once you have mastered the lessons from the techniques you will be able to craft your own "ideal"

it certainly isnt an ok to make up new techniques and be too friggin lazy to at least rename them

I engage this response only because it's a common misconception that has had is having and likely will continue to have devastatingly negative impact on Kenpo.T


Your contention that there was an attack and defense that was placed as an example of Sword and Hammer is correct. Your contention that this example IS the Ideal Phase TECHNIQUE for Sword and Hammer is entirely incorrect. Doc in no way contradicts himself...he is the one who actually specified this distinction that I'm repeating. The fact that others were too lazy to craft their own Ideal doesn't mean that we should censure people like Doc and me who have and continue to craft our own Ideals. Doc's Ideals, btw, don't always correspond to the more "popular" and wholly incorrect "idea not IDEAL" techs that are misrepresented as THEE IDEAL TECHNIQUE. There never has been, nor will there ever be, an Ideal TECHNIQUE. Look again at the definition of the Ideal PHASE as given by Mr. Parker:

Taken from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo ver. 1.0 ...

(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.

(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)

(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".

Everything that makes the point--taken in proper context--is right there. Exactly precisely as Doc said. For the purpose of this discussion...observe the Kenpo definition of IDEAS as they apply to the Ideal Phase.
*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
"IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS"
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************


An idea can become an Ideal but an Idea is NOT an "IDEAL". Keep this in mind


Now look at the definition of the Ideal Phase:

(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.



It is...AN ANALYTICAL PROCESS OF DISSECTING A TECHNIQUE.

It is a ANALYTICAL PROCESS.

It CANNOT be an IDEAL TECHNIQUE...because analytical processes DON'T yield inflexible set in stone ideal techniques in the sense that Kenpo defines these terms.


"The Ideal Phase requires STRUCTURING an Ideal Technique by selecting combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW."

Reflect upon this. Absorb this. Comprehend this. Your contention, Twin Fist, and similar contentions by many others that:

"..." the techniques are just options, metaphors to teach you lessons, once you learn the lessons, you dont need the techniques."

Is only HALF right. The techniques ARE options...but those options are grasped when the principles behind the techniques are grasped. The techniques themselves are designed by your teacher based upon the concepts and approach of the Ideal Phase and the 3 Points of View that this Ideal Phase strongly urges us to consider. THE TECHNIQUE IS SUPPOSED TO RELIABLY THWART THE ATTACK IT'S SUPPOSED TO THWART/ DEFEND AGAINST AND THE TECH YOU GUYS CHAMPION DOES NOT, HAS NOT, WON'T AND CANNOT. Even Doc has said over and over again:" the techniques as written are unworkable". He explained what actually occurred and how the Ideal Phase became corrupted into something it never should have been, which is the Ideal TECHNIQUE, when he said:

In layman's terms? Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s jab is different than Sugar Shane Mosley's jab. They are different people with different strengths and weaknesses, different physiques, different life experiences different coaches etc. But each of their coaches grasp the benefits and whatnot of the jab very well, and each coach crafted their own methods of training the jab and both dictating the reactions of their opponent and dictating those reactions...with the jab. Each coach taught their knowledge and method to each of these fighters. Once you learn how to jab and the principles that make the jab more and more effective, YOU STILL NEED THE JAB. It's not a metaphor. It's a real world tech that works and can save your ***. You need BOTH the LESSONS aaaand the TECHNIQUES. The TECHS are proof that you know the lessons. The lessons allow you to craft more techs that prove that you understand the universal underlying principle. You don't stop learning math just cuz you now know how to add subtract multiply and divide. You learn to add subtract multiply and divide BETTER, then move on to algebra, then trigonometry, and physics etc etc...and you'll be adding multiplying subtracting and dividing throughout. Once you grasp the lessons behind Sword and Hammer? You DON'T forget Sword and Hammer. You ADD OTHER EFFECTIVE TECHS LIKE SWORD AND HAMMER to your arsenal...and you learn to do S&h better. For the rest of your Kenpo life. Doing the Sword and Hammer differently than someone else [ as long as it effectively thwarts the attack that it's supposed to thwart ] doesn't mean that it's NOT Sword and Hammer. Doesn't mean that it's NOT Kenpo.

The fact that each fighter deploys the jab differently doesn't mean that they're not jabbing or boxing. The fact that each boxer deploys the jab in different situations doesn't mean that they're not jabbing or boxing.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Damnit. I just typed a rather lengthy and well thought out response, but then the internet froze. Great.

Instead I'll jsut sum it up. Ras Sword and Hammer is not Sword and Hammer. He can call it that, but we are comparing apples and oranges. The origial technique deals with a completely different situation and has completely different principles than Ras's technique.

Ras, I like some of your ideas even if I think mechanically they leave a lot to be desired, which just so you know is not me taking a shot at you, because my techniques still mechanically leave a lot to be desired as well. The scenario you set up is not the same scenario that the origianl technique had in mind.

that contention, sir, is incorrect and directly contradicted by the definition of The Ideal Phase itself. You are conflating a major failure in Kenpo--the default creation of an Ideal TECHNIQUE that has been universally passed off as The Ideal Phase--with the ACTUAL Ideal Phase ITSELF. The Ideal Phase...by definition...has to be made by the head of whatever group that is training Kenpo. That person or persons responsible for crafting The Ideal Phase must not only satisfy the definition of The Ideal Phase...that person or persons is also strongly urged to ensure that they consider the other three points of view that rounds out and manifestly completes The Ideal Phase PROCESS.

In order to make this more clear...let's take a look see at what I have done and directly compare it and contrast it with others. I will do this in my next post.

 

[Twin Fist]

you really dont bother reading anyone's post do you?

Your contention that there was an attack and defense that was placed as an example of Sword and Hammer is correct.

duh

Your contention that this example IS the Ideal Phase TECHNIQUE for Sword and Hammer is entirely incorrect.

i havnt claimed that, not once, not ever, you need to pay more attention cuz i havnt said that

at most, i would say it is a starting point, it teaches us a lesson. we learn the technique to learn the lesson, once we learn the lesson, we are free to create spontaneously our own ideal technique

is the starting version the end all expression of those concepts?

no

i said that in ****ing english

it isnt my fault if you wont be bothered to READ

you even quoted me:

" the techniques are just options, metaphors to teach you lessons, once you learn the lessons, you dont need the techniques."

and now you are saying the same things I said:

"The TECHS are proof that you know the lessons. The lessons allow you to craft more techs that prove that you understand the universal underlying principle."

this is no different that what i said, and you quoted. So now you are biting my stuff......

so, if you are bothering to read this one, PAY MORE ATTENTION, stop telling everyone else they are wrong for a split second and actually READ what they say

 

[MJS]

Excellent answer, especially the part where you note that t he diehards insist on a inflexible response... "if the guy does A then you do 1". Exactly right. The diehards are wrong.

I will proffer my own opinion after years of using this tandem but I'd like to hear more from others like you MJS...

Actually, I described that incorrect. Sure, we could step, but the IP is stepping to 3. So...I'd say the handsword is a good choice, as it should cancel out or at least interfere with anything they may throw. The hammerfist just seems like the natural thing to do from the HS.

 

[MJS]

You're conflating some terms my brother...the Ideal PHASE most definitely exists. it is as I have defined it upthread. Please read the definition all the way to the Equation Formula.

What happened was multipronged and exactly as Doc stated:

1) Too many early Black Belts were too stupid and too lazy and/or lacked the real life experience and/or skill to actually produce The Ideal Phase as Mr. Parker required of them. Instead they simply slavishly copied the EXAMPLE that was set forth for them in the instructor's manual known colloquially as BIG RED. These guys were like Decepticons...but stupid. They're...Moron-icons. They completely misunderstood and wholesale misrepresented Mr. Parker's art.

2) In slavishly mindlessly copying the EXAMPLE of a Ideal Phase without understanding the Ideal Phase CONCEPT, these Moron-icons made the very thing that Mr. Parker decried come into being...they created a totally dysfunctional, nonsensical Ideal TECHNIQUE. Cuz all they wanted was the belt promotion, they didn't want to think, probe, question, create, develope.

3) Mr. Parker's BB's by and large failed him, and in so doing...they failed us. They succeeded wildly commercially and brought down a Greek tragedy upon Kenpo. And that was what had guys like you and I questioning the very underpinnings of kenpo's training methodology and the mindsets that spawned such craptasticness. We were right to question the things we did; the answers we received were from people who didn't know what they were talking about and led us even further astray. I guess that Mr. Parker promoted too many people who sucked in the system but were good for business in order to get the mandatory financial success and the Kenpo brand well known...and that was a disasterous move for the quality of the techs, although it was a stroke of commercial and financial genius.

4) Doc has said more than once that Mr. Parker had resolved to take his Kenpo back and fix all the analrifficness therein, but he passed away very soon after he made that resolution. I get the feeling that he might have passed the within a year of making said resolution...cuz I think he would have made some serious inroads and succeeded at his goal if he had say...5 years to achieve it.

I think I saw someone, somewhere on here, post something Doc said about the IPs, which is basically what I've been saying...that Mr. Parker didn't design them to be the 1 and only answer, but instead to use the lessons learned. Yup, TF said it in this thread, here. Therefore, I should be able to craft my own response, according to the situation, providing I use the lessons, concepts, ideas, whatever you wanna call them, to form a response.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I responded several times but the site ate my posts like it did Mr. Kenshin's. I will repost in a while from now.

 

[MJS]

Here's what I see when I look at the classic Sword & Hammer: an underlying set of principles that say, in essence, when grabbed from the side, turn inward and step into the attacker, and attack at two levels, high & middle/low. When I look at something purporting to be a variant of Sword & Hammer, that's what I'm looking for -- turning inward, stepping in, especially, because my training has taught me to look for movement and structure and principles, more than specific techniques. Then I'm going to look at that hand sword and hammer; why those particular techniques, what are they doing? I see a longer range attack moving on a horizontal plane, that's going to go over or along the initial grab. A hand sword or chop fits beautifully to the throat -- but could be easily adapted to a back fist, or a slap, or even a clearing motion into a wrap over the arm. That downward hammer? It's a nice fit with the natural reaction of the hand to the throat or face, and it's moving on a vertical plane. It allows you to "drop" your weight behind the attack (I suspect this is the principle Parker called "Marriage of Gravity").

So, a couple of what I'd call "consistent" variations come to my mind. The initial hand sword might become a palm/grab to the face, and the hammer fist a vertical drop, taking the face with it straight down. You might wrap and drop on the arm. It might even simply become a clearing motion when you turn and recognize that the grab was your wife or your cousin or someone else whose trachea you don't want to crush. (Incidentally -- what I read the "kenpo sense" as being is just that; the ability to recognize the nature of the grab, and then identify the person you're dealing with and scale your response appropriately.) The stepping and basic pattern remains the same; an inward turn, a horizontal plane attack, moving into a vertical plane attack.

And, of course, this won't work "right" if the attack is significantly different. A push rather than a more static grab or pull will make you want to step out and away. A grab from behind rather than the flank will need a different step; by the time you spin that far around, it'll be too late. But, then, you need a different principle for a different situation, don't you?

Exactly! This goes back to what I said to Ras about that short female student I was teaching. IMHO, and some of the other Kenpo greats may disagree...lol...but whatever....we should be able to adapt, change, etc, to anything we want. If I can't substitute an eye poke for a palm to the face, an arm break/dislocation for a joint lock, then IMHO, huge lessons are being missed.

 

[Twin Fist]

i teach this stepping in to 4:30 instead of 3

Actually, I described that incorrect. Sure, we could step, but the IP is stepping to 3. So...I'd say the handsword is a good choice, as it should cancel out or at least interfere with anything they may throw. The hammerfist just seems like the natural thing to do from the HS.

 

[Twin Fist]

Exactly! This goes back to what I said to Ras about that short female student I was teaching. IMHO, and some of the other Kenpo greats may disagree...lol...but whatever....we should be able to adapt, change, etc, to anything we want. If I can't substitute an eye poke for a palm to the face, an arm break/dislocation for a joint lock, then IMHO, huge lessons are being missed.

this is 100% true, once you have mastered the concepts, those concepts will enable you to craft your own response to a given attack.

take sword and hammer. same attack

instead of the throat, you could do that outward chop to the ribs, this will (because of the bodies reaction) require a new follow-up, but the concept will still be right. And as long as it works, it is a good technique. It isnt sword and hammer, but thats ok becasue you dont need sword and hammer.

you did however need to learn sword and hammer to learn those lessons....

 

[Josh Oakley]

Doc's on Martial Talk. Has anyone asked him to comment on this thread, since everyone's quoting him?

 

[MJS]

i teach this stepping in to 4:30 instead of 3

Sure. Depending on where the badguy is standing, that'd work too.

this is 100% true, once you have mastered the concepts, those concepts will enable you to craft your own response to a given attack.

take sword and hammer. same attack

instead of the throat, you could do that outward chop to the ribs, this will (because of the bodies reaction) require a new follow-up, but the concept will still be right. And as long as it works, it is a good technique. It isnt sword and hammer, but thats ok becasue you dont need sword and hammer.

you did however need to learn sword and hammer to learn those lessons....

Agreed. IMO, I think once you learn the tech., its good to experiment with things.

Doc's on Martial Talk. Has anyone asked him to comment on this thread, since everyone's quoting him?

He mostly posts on KT now, though he does pop on here from time to time. I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Okay rather than take forever going back and forth? Let's take a direct look at this stuff from the actual definition of THE IDEAL PHASE and its other mandatory components and compare and contrast step by step:

(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.

(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)

(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".



Everything that makes the point--taken in proper context--is right there^^^^^


First step? Let's have the teacher "selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze". That attack is launched at 0:16 in this video:

[video=youtube_share;A36Bw5I3-g0]http://youtu.be/A36Bw5I3-g0[/video]


Now, THIS is what most people call Theee singular sole Sword and Hammer, which effectively creates the Ideal TECHNIQUE of Sword and Hammer:

[video=youtube_share;oJbyIBmhDN0]http://youtu.be/oJbyIBmhDN0[/video]

Compare the two...and immediately the flaws in this approach are seen. These flaws are legion. First? The above tech doesn't satisfy the requirements for the actual definition for The Ideal Phase:

"p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW."

Are there fixed moves of defense and offense? Yes, but the dysfunctional "attack" followed by the equally dysfunctional "response" does not address the street reality...as shown in the link above. Does the form of Sword and Hammer address the 'anticipated reactions' that can stem from the projected and expected moves of defense and offense...in the real world? No, it doesn't. There is no addressing of the power of the grab, the body momentum follow through, and the fact that the punch would be launched nearly simultaneously with the grab and push/pull.


"(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)"

Are the expected and unexpected reactions of the opponent a part of the Sword and Hammer as displayed by the other videos? What if the opponent throws a punch? What if the push knocked you off balance? What if he tackles you? What if he doesn't push you...he just cracks you from the side or behind you or whatever [ which is what happens most of the time ]? NO.


(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

Is there any aspect of this approach in the tech? Even partially? NO.


(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.


There is no hint of The Equation Formula in the above Sword and Hammer expression. In short...since it lacks the primary components of The Ideal Phase Analytical Process...THE TECHNIQUE THAT ALL OF YOU LAUDED IS NOT THEE IDEAL TECHNIQUE. It CAN be an "idea"...but it CANNOT be and there has NEVER BEEN a IDEAL TECHNIQUE.



In short? If you trained THIS method.--->

[video=youtube_share;oJbyIBmhDN0]http://youtu.be/oJbyIBmhDN0[/video]

you'd get your head taken off. You'd fail to thwart the attack. Thwarting the attack is THE FIRST requirement for any self defense technique. You can thwart the attack by fleeing, but in this case? Thwarting the attack requires a functional deployment of The Sword and Hammer. Now...

This is MY Sword and Hammer:


Atacx Gym Sword and Hammer 1

[video=youtube_share;eo4yj0MZyeI]http://youtu.be/eo4yj0MZyeI[/video]

Atacx Gym Sword and Hammer 1A

[video=youtube_share;AuvuhW1u2WE]http://youtu.be/AuvuhW1u2WE[/video]

Atacx Gym Sword and Hammer 2

[video=youtube_share;R-mmdyIHkjs]http://youtu.be/R-mmdyIHkjs[/video]

"p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW."

The combat scenario is the same as previously.

Now, look at my variants. Does the Atacx Gym IP contained within the technique "fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them" ? Absolutely. The first thing I address is that the grab [ that's usually the BG grabbing us ] is aggressive and transfers its energy and bodily followthrough to the defending target [that's usually us ]. This is wholly ignored by the dysfunctional other variant. Another basic real world requirement is that the punch happens at the same time or nearly the same time of the push/pull. They're grabbing you for a reason...and that reason is to do something to you that you don't want. Usually punch your block off. But you can get cracked with a bottle, stabbed, pushed over, tackled, simply pulled away...all manner of things. But in EVERY case? Energy is transmitted from the grab to the person grabbed. I address the grab AND the followup attack...

...and I do so in a way that allows me the option of correctly assessing the grabber's intent. It's not always necessary to Kenpo some jerk into oblivion. If you snappily disengage his grab? That alone could de-escalate the situation. The person grabbing you could be a friend or a stranger who grabbed you and surprised you. The point is? You have to be sure that whoever grabbed you DESERVES to be hit with the Sword and Hammer. That assessment time is built into my tech. It's wholly absent in the dysfunctional other variants.

"(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)"


I'm all over this Phase. What if he grabbed you from a different position? What if he just PUNCHED you and DIDN'T grab and pull you. What if he grabbed you from a different hand and different lead leg or from a different position? What if he PUSHED you and PUNCHED you instead of PULLED and punched you? The other technique which too many champion don't even remotely engage this area.


"(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting."

My expression is the only one that actually shows in its base technique the actual application of newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Allll of the other ones merely mimic the static nonsense of this first dysfunctional tech.


"p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence."

The culmination of the Ideal Phase Analytical Process is the above. As all of you noted, my expression looks radically different than the tech that you're used to seeing. Yeeep. Cuz mine WORKS and I'm actually doing The Ideal Phase analytical process in its entirety. Precisely as defined step by step...and not misapplied or misunderstood.

You guys are used to accepting a dysfunctional tech, and you're used to crediting what is essentially a bankrupt idea...i.e. the Ideal TECHNIQUE. There is no one way to do the Sword and Hammer Ideal Phase tech, but all the Ideal Phase methods require the defense to be subjected to the whole Ideal Phase Analytical Process to EVEN QUALIFY for consideration as an Ideal Phase Analytical technique. What you guys keep calling thee IP is NOT qualified for such distinction.

Most essential of all? The IP tech--whichever IP you choose, however you physically articulate that tech--MUST WORK AGAINST THE FULL POWER, FULL SPEED TECH IT'S SUPPOSED TO DEFEAT. This means that whatever IP you choose? Said defense must actually be repeatedly tested against resistance...or else you can't take a common street attack, enact that attack live or with any sort of honest and truthful energy in class, and then select techs that will reliably thwart it. Which is the basic premise of any and all self-defense. You know...reliably defending your self against attacks.


Now, I'm not the only one that has multiple options drawn from the natural and expected counters to counters that the BG is likely to pull off. The Tracy's had it built into their system since prior to my birth. It's my understanding that Mr.Parker loooong had them built into his personal system. Boxers, MMA, JKDU, SBG and maaaany other guys and gals have it. In Capoeira, Mestre Bimba's secuencias fill this function rather well. Etc etc.

Please reflect upon the above.

AMANI..."peace"....

--

"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW AND WHY YOU TRAIN"

"THE FIGHT YOU ALWAYS WIN IS THE FIGHT YOU'RE NOT IN"

"YOU MUST LEARN TO HEAL IF YOU'VE LEARNED TO DESTROY"

"AVOID TROUBLE,BUT IF TROUBLE IS UNAVOIDABLE? PUT TROUBLE IN TROUBLE"