Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

[Twin Fist]

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."--Albert Einstein.

you have to be willing to listen to the answers

you wont

thats why you fail

 

[jks9199]

Watching this back and forth, I was spurred to do some research.

Our one and only Senior Grandmaster was not yet sixty years old when he passed away. In Chinese terms, he would be considered just beginning to move into his prime. Most of the subsequent self-proclaimed “Grandmasters” of his commercial art got there faster than he did. Yet Ed Parker was a perpetual student and was still learning until the day he moved on. Mr. Parker was a genius, and he definitely accelerated the learning process from the Traditional Chinese. He was always exploring and accumulating more knowledge and never failed to remind students, “One doesn’t become great until they realize what they know is very little.” What some call evolution, Ed Parker called “tailoring and rearrangement.” They are doing what Ed Parker always taught for Motion-Kenpo. For this they should be commended.

However, this has given us too many young “masters.” Although many are content with where they are, others are unaware of how to move further. Still many others are exploring other arts not realizing much of what they seek is available closer to home. There is also a sizable group that would like more but is unwilling to give up what they think they have. Full cups don’t have much room. All that really matters however is continuing to educate oneself. Ed Parker always said, “The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it’s open.” If something is missing in your or your instructors Kenpo, ask intelligent questions.

A great deal of the SubLevel 4 information comes from my own lesson notes. Mr. Parker dictated the core and laid the foundation. He constantly scrutinized, examined, and decided what he personally wanted. This forced me to write my own Coursebooks for my students. The information was, and as far as I know, is not available in written form anywhere else. Mr. Parker expected me to keep track of, and codify what we were doing at the time. It allowed him the freedom to “think” freely, and removed the burden of organizing the information. He really disliked organizing his thoughts sometimes because it slowed him down in the creation process. He often asked or assigned students organizational problems. He formed a foundation for me that I will be utilizing perpetually.

In my lessons he stressed the execution of a sound workable Default Technique to strengthen and solidify a firm foundation and physical vocabulary. I was never allowed to deviate. Unlike Motion-Kenpo which is plagued by what I call the “what if syndrome,” Mr. Parker mandated I understand the importance of a specific sequential structure. This is the completely opposite of the “tailored” flexibility concept found in his general teachings. Although experimentation was a part of my lessons, he was the one that initiated it, until he was satisfied with the results. He often changed his directions, and I had to flow with the lesson of the day. He told me what to do, how to do it, and a little at a time, the “why.” The “why,” was most important, because he taught me “why” you couldn’t change techniques, not “why” you could. His lessons allowed Kenpo to be more destructive without maiming, as well as more passive if you desired. It does not attack the soft tissue of the eyes, throat or testicles because it doesn’t have to for effectiveness. If you remove soft tissue assaults in Motion-Kenpo, what do you have left? Nothing remains but the blunt force trauma available to any unskilled street fighter.

From SL4 Concepts by Ron Chap'el

Ras, after reading a lot of your posts, I have no doubt that you are very skilled, very knowledgeable, and very passionate about your training. But, I think there are also areas where you don't know nearly as much as you think, and you're trying to apply your incomplete or external understanding of some training methods. At the same time, I think you're also catching grief for being "different", and that sometimes people aren't seeing what you're saying because of that.

I've never trained Kenpo, under any format. My understanding, based on readings & interviews from Ed Parker, Ron Chap'el, and others, is that each of the named techniques embodies a concept or ideal. The name contains a code of sorts to the concept or ideal, as well as the weapons employed. Training takes place at several levels or across different approaches. In the beginning, the technique is learned exactly as shown, against a scripted attack with an attacker going along. Later, the technique can be adapted and the principle applied against less predicted attacks. As long as that principle is maintained, the technique is "true" to the concept.

Now, let's look at Sword & Hammer. I found this page which gave a thorough breakdown of the model technique. My understanding is that the technique begins by being grabbed and pulled, from the right side. The response is to turn and step into the pull, delivering first a chop to the attackers throat then a hammer to the groin. The page attributes the following description to Ed Parker himself:

SWORD AND HAMMER (right flank – left hand shoulder grab)

1. While you are standing naturally (facing 12 o’clock), your opponent (standing between 3 and 4 o’clock) grabs your right shoulder with his left hand. Immediately and simultaneously (1) step off and to your right with your right foot toward 3 o’clock into a horse stance (with your head and eyes turned toward your opponent), (2) strike your opponent’s throat with a right outward handsword, and (3) pin your opponent’s left hand to your right shoulder with your left hand. (This action should cause your opponent’s head to move away from you.)
2. As your opponent reacts to your handsword strike and bends backward, settle your body (by bending your knees) and with the help of gravitational marriage execute a right back hammerfist strike to your opponent’s groin. (Your opponent should then bend forward at the waist.)

Let's look at that technique for a second. You're grabbed, perhaps to be pulled into a punch -- so you ride that pull into the attack, using his energy and your own motion to strike him and disrupting that potential punch, then before he can recover from the initial strike, you deliver another shot that hopefully will be a serious deterrent. If all goes according to plan, the attacker is probably gasping past a spasming (or crushed) throat while simultaneously dealing with the nausea and pain of a major strike to the groin. You're in a position to do more, if necessary, as well. I like this technique. It's solid, can be taught quickly, and relies on gross body movements. I like that you're moving into the attacker; you neutralize a lot of potential further attacks that way. It's not a perfect technique, though, in my opinion. You're inside your attacker, and he has a number of options if the first shot doesn't sufficiently shatter his attention. Groin shots aren't 100% reliable.

So, let's look at your ATACX GYM version. Rather then turn in, you step and turn away, shielding as you turn. You expect your opponent to strike at you again, so you step into that strike, again shielding, clinch and begin to knee and strike your attacker. It's not a bad technique -- but it's significantly different from the original. The initial attack has changed; it's no longer a grab and pull, it's a push and pummel. You've lost the hand sword and hammer fist, instead using similar hand positions as a shield for your turn and entry. Like I said, I wouldn't call it a bad technique. There are things here I like, too. It's a good redirection, and your emphasis on covering as you enter is good. You're nicely set up for knees, kicks, elbows, and more when you enter.

But your version is built around a different attack, and different principles in response. It's not really a better version of Sword & Hammer, any more than a custard is a better version of a souffle. They're both egg-based dishes, but that's about where the resemblance ends.

​

 

[Twin Fist]

[SUP]Chris,
Ras isnt doing Ed Parker's Sword and Hammer, so he isnt doing it"wrong" thats how he justifies his position

he is doing something he made up, and since he cant or wont create a unique name for his technique he is just calling it sword and hammer

it is sort of like the dude in Comming to America. He opened a restaurant called McDowell's where they served Big Mic's. The food wasnt bad, he was just shamlessly stealing someone else's hard work

go to hong kong, and they have "Mayboro" cigerettes, red and white package, looks a LOT like some other better known product

and the smokes are not bad, but they are not the real thing.

thats what we have here.

it isnt BAD, but it isnt sword and hammer, his other technique vids are all the same, he takes the names, and does a different attack and different defense and anyone that points that out to him isnt smart enough to get what he is doing.

hell, i AGREED with his technique and he still had to tell me i was wrong

I think he is just here to argue.

seriously.

take this:
[/SUP] "I said I've taught this tech with EASE to beginners for decades and I can do it again. Within 8 hours they'll be able to fight with it. Guaranteed. Because I'm functional? I can usually have them able to pull it off against nonoverwhelming attacks [ little woman attacked by surprise by some huge armed guy or something ] in literally 1 hour of training the tech. Been doing it for decades."

this simply isnt possible.

I will say in no uncertain terms, this isnt possible

you cannot take a person off the street and have them fighting with a technique, ANY technique in 8 hours.

they might remember a sequence of movements in one hour, but they wont have a clue when they are doing, and thier attacks wont have any power and will most likely hurt thier hands more than the person they are trying to hit.

anyone that have actually taught someone knows this.

 

[Twin Fist]

"You said that I'm constantly saying what a badass I am. I disagreed and asked you to point out where I said that. You never produced a single quote because it doesn't exist. "

are you serious? i can re-post DOZENS of quotes of you blowing your own horn, do you really want to get humiliated and proven to be dishonest?

save yourself the embarrassment.

 

[ATACX GYM]

you have to be willing to listen to the answers

you wont

thats why you fail

There's a big biiig difference between a RESPONSE...which is what you did in the above quote...and a ANSWER. There's also a huge difference between DISAGREEING and NOT LISTENING. And NOT AGREEING WITH YOUR OPINIONS, Twin Fist, doesn't equate with FAILURE.

 

[Twin Fist]

dude it was a test

I AGREED WITH YOU and you still had to tell me i was wrong

that convinced me that you are only here to argue and i got no time for someone with , how was it put to you? oh yeah:

an unteachable spirit

You might be a great fighter, but you will never be great martial artist.

I doubt you will even see the difference

 

[ATACX GYM]

Watching this back and forth, I was spurred to do some research.



From SL4 Concepts by Ron Chap'el

Ras, after reading a lot of your posts, I have no doubt that you are very skilled, very knowledgeable, and very passionate about your training. But, I think there are also areas where you don't know nearly as much as you think, and you're trying to apply your incomplete or external understanding of some training methods. At the same time, I think you're also catching grief for being "different", and that sometimes people aren't seeing what you're saying because of that.

I've never trained Kenpo, under any format. My understanding, based on readings & interviews from Ed Parker, Ron Chap'el, and others, is that each of the named techniques embodies a concept or ideal. The name contains a code of sorts to the concept or ideal, as well as the weapons employed. Training takes place at several levels or across different approaches. In the beginning, the technique is learned exactly as shown, against a scripted attack with an attacker going along. Later, the technique can be adapted and the principle applied against less predicted attacks. As long as that principle is maintained, the technique is "true" to the concept.

Now, let's look at Sword & Hammer. I found this page which gave a thorough breakdown of the model technique. My understanding is that the technique begins by being grabbed and pulled, from the right side. The response is to turn and step into the pull, delivering first a chop to the attackers throat then a hammer to the groin. The page attributes the following description to Ed Parker himself:


Let's look at that technique for a second. You're grabbed, perhaps to be pulled into a punch -- so you ride that pull into the attack, using his energy and your own motion to strike him and disrupting that potential punch, then before he can recover from the initial strike, you deliver another shot that hopefully will be a serious deterrent. If all goes according to plan, the attacker is probably gasping past a spasming (or crushed) throat while simultaneously dealing with the nausea and pain of a major strike to the groin. You're in a position to do more, if necessary, as well. I like this technique. It's solid, can be taught quickly, and relies on gross body movements. I like that you're moving into the attacker; you neutralize a lot of potential further attacks that way. It's not a perfect technique, though, in my opinion. You're inside your attacker, and he has a number of options if the first shot doesn't sufficiently shatter his attention. Groin shots aren't 100% reliable.

So, let's look at your ATACX GYM version. Rather then turn in, you step and turn away, shielding as you turn. You expect your opponent to strike at you again, so you step into that strike, again shielding, clinch and begin to knee and strike your attacker. It's not a bad technique -- but it's significantly different from the original. The initial attack has changed; it's no longer a grab and pull, it's a push and pummel. You've lost the hand sword and hammer fist, instead using similar hand positions as a shield for your turn and entry. Like I said, I wouldn't call it a bad technique. There are things here I like, too. It's a good redirection, and your emphasis on covering as you enter is good. You're nicely set up for knees, kicks, elbows, and more when you enter.

But your version is built around a different attack, and different principles in response. It's not really a better version of Sword & Hammer, any more than a custard is a better version of a souffle. They're both egg-based dishes, but that's about where the resemblance ends.

​

Now THIS is more like it! Thanks for your response...it's well researched and well presented. I like much of your response too. I think yo're jcorrect in that I catch flakk for being "different", and I am the first to admit and acknowledge that my knowledge of what I call Kenpo is incomplete. I don't know anyone [ including, by all accounts, Mr. Parker himself ] who would seriously opine the opposite.

On top of that? Insofar as Sword and Hammer and any and all other names of techs of Kenpo is concerned? I completely agree. I think that there is significant importance regarding the meaning of the tech...but right here is where the deviation starts on my part. As you said...let's take a look at Sword and Hammer in the piece you quoted above and compare and contrast it with both mine and the more common, more prominent physical expression in what Doc called the "idea not Ideal" Phase of Motion Kenpo.

1). The technique is vastly flawed. It assumes that the BG will grab and pull your shoulder, and the Kenpoist will be able to preemptively respond and dispense with the attacker with this tech prior to any other harm befalling him.

VIDEOS OF THE I.P. PROVIDED ON THIS THREAD SHOW THAT: There is nobody pulling on your shoulder. The uke is tamely reaching out and very lightly grasping the demonstrator's shoulder. Uke MIGHT cock a fist, but in ever ase uke stands paralyzed like a petrified zombie. The demonstrator then fires off his techs...Sword and Hammer...and that's a wrap for uke. Everyone rejoices in the kenpo dojos.

VIDEO OF THE ATACX GYM: Immediately real world pressures and actions are considered,such as: the energy of a grabbing push not only displacing you but disrupting counterattacks based upon the premise of Kenpoists preemptively defeating attacks prior to attackers being able to launch their offensives. This is a highly flawed and oft-repeated concept in Motion Kenpo, and is highly unrealistic. Simply recreating the requisite scenario on the mat and requiring the students to do as either the original suggestion regarding the IP Sword and Hammer suggested or any of the stuff misrepresented as the IP in the kenpo videos that aren't mine would immediately make this reality bold and obvious. The recommended responses will not work as scripted taught and shown. That's like having a FBI instructor show you shooting techs that won't work under pressure, a parachuting jumpmaster showing you techs that will fail to open your parachute afte you jump out of the plane or whatever spot that's high off the ground, or a boxing coach showing you how to NOT jab under pressure...and claiming you CAN jab under pressure. You go to a swimming coach to learn to swim, cuz you alred know hat you'll drown or that your swimming doesn't meet the requirements you set for yourself.

Therefore, you are correct sir...I have indeed changed the attack.j..by making it far more realistic. Far more real world. Functionalizing the attack functionalizes the response. So my change is not only an improvement over the original model and most especially the model presented as the IP in most Kenpo videos...my version is a reflection of the actual definition of The Ideal Phase. Again and I repeat...Mr. Parker and recently Doc Chapel specified that The Ideal Phase is supposed to be crafted on a case by case basis by student to teacher, using the techs and medium of Kenpo, combined with the teacher and student's prior experience, all in pursuit of properly implementing the tech Sword and Hammer.

LEGAL AND MORAL RAMIFICATIONS: One of the relatively rare instances that I agree with Chris Parker here...I don't think that [ even if you are miraculously able to pull off the Sword and Hammer as scripted, which you almost nobody can do reliably ] a chop to the throat/jgroin hammer is the best response that one should hardwire into your muscle memory. There are levels of response, gradations of destution, that may be superior to the "go for the gusto" neck chop and nads mashing recommended here. That's why I recommend the cover [ because if you tress test this tech contextually? YOU WILL GET HIT MOST OF THE TIME BEFORE YOU RESPOND ] the step out and the defensive spin then the deployment of the Sword and Hammer FIRST to the opponent's grasping arm. In the real world, I've found that deploying the ATACX GYM Sword and Hammer variant with stank nasty effect oftentimes resolves the whole matter by itself...it not only propels the opponent away, but oftentimes the strike applied to the arm of the aggressor by the hammerfist and handsword prevents further aggression.


Hold up the Super Bowl is on. I will answer more in depth afteward.

 

[jks9199]

Now THIS is more like it! Thanks for your response...it's well researched and well presented. I like much of your response too. I think yo're jcorrect in that I catch flakk for being "different", and I am the first to admit and acknowledge that my knowledge of what I call Kenpo is incomplete. I don't know anyone [ including, by all accounts, Mr. Parker himself ] who would seriously opine the opposite.

On top of that? Insofar as Sword and Hammer and any and all other names of techs of Kenpo is concerned? I completely agree. I think that there is significant importance regarding the meaning of the tech...but right here is where the deviation starts on my part. As you said...let's take a look at Sword and Hammer in the piece you quoted above and compare and contrast it with both mine and the more common, more prominent physical expression in what Doc called the "idea not Ideal" Phase of Motion Kenpo.

1). The technique is vastly flawed. It assumes that the BG will grab and pull your shoulder, and the Kenpoist will be able to preemptively respond and dispense with the attacker with this tech prior to any other harm befalling him.

As I read the notes and Parker's own description of the technique, the goal is to respond nearly instantaneously with the grab, before a punch could land. You're going to move inward, inside the attack, if a punch is coming. And even if you don't beat the punch, that hand sword could become a block/deflection of the attack. If there's no punch, and it's merely a grab to unbalance -- the concern is moot. I think you're trying to make it fit a different situation than it was designed for, kind of like trying to say that a hammer is no good for sawing a board to length.

VIDEOS OF THE I.P. PROVIDED ON THIS THREAD SHOW THAT: There is nobody pulling on your shoulder. The uke is tamely reaching out and very lightly grasping the demonstrator's shoulder. Uke MIGHT cock a fist, but in ever ase uke stands paralyzed like a petrified zombie. The demonstrator then fires off his techs...Sword and Hammer...and that's a wrap for uke. Everyone rejoices in the kenpo dojos.

VIDEO OF THE ATACX GYM: Immediately real world pressures and actions are considered,such as: the energy of a grabbing push not only displacing you but disrupting counterattacks based upon the premise of Kenpoists preemptively defeating attacks prior to attackers being able to launch their offensives. This is a highly flawed and oft-repeated concept in Motion Kenpo, and is highly unrealistic. Simply recreating the requisite scenario on the mat and requiring the students to do as either the original suggestion regarding the IP Sword and Hammer suggested or any of the stuff misrepresented as the IP in the kenpo videos that aren't mine would immediately make this reality bold and obvious. The recommended responses will not work as scripted taught and shown. That's like having a FBI instructor show you shooting techs that won't work under pressure, a parachuting jumpmaster showing you techs that will fail to open your parachute afte you jump out of the plane or whatever spot that's high off the ground, or a boxing coach showing you how to NOT jab under pressure...and claiming you CAN jab under pressure. You go to a swimming coach to learn to swim, cuz you alred know hat you'll drown or that your swimming doesn't meet the requirements you set for yourself.

A small note here. I happen to be a certified LE Defensive Tactics Instructor, and a certified LE Firearms Instructor. I said earlier that there are some things that you don't understand as well as you think you do.

I agree that, in the demonstrations you've selected, the uke is rather passively participating. (It's a complaint I have about a lot of Kenpo demonstrations, to be honest.) But they are simply demonstrations. In many demonstrations, uke does not fully react as they would in a real situation; that's part and parcel of demonstration. After all, the presenters are trying to show the base technique, not every variation or possibility. Let's be real; you probably won't show a take where your demonstration partner up and clocks you, now are you?

The purpose of a demonstration is to present the technique, not highlight every possibility. Experiments and what if's can come in later, when you've worked with it a bit. I don't think you've given the technique a chance, against the attack it's designed for. You're trying to use that hammer as a saw, and then saying it doesn't work.

Therefore, you are correct sir...I have indeed changed the attack.j..by making it far more realistic. Far more real world. Functionalizing the attack functionalizes the response. So my change is not only an improvement over the original model and most especially the model presented as the IP in most Kenpo videos...my version is a reflection of the actual definition of The Ideal Phase. Again and I repeat...Mr. Parker and recently Doc Chapel specified that The Ideal Phase is supposed to be crafted on a case by case basis by student to teacher, using the techs and medium of Kenpo, combined with the teacher and student's prior experience, all in pursuit of properly implementing the tech Sword and Hammer.

But are you doing a "more realistic" version of the initiating attack -- or a completely different attack? In the Parker technique, the attacker is either slightly behind or to your right side, and grabbing your shoulder. Kind of a "hey, you..." grab. It may be preparatory to a punch, or simply an unbalancing grab. Perhaps you haven't seen it -- but it does happen. For real. And the energy of a pull is different from a push, or even a simple grab. An appropriate and effective defense against a grab is different from one for a push. ("Grabbing push" is rather an oxymoron, no?) You're showing an effective technique against a push and hold. It's not nearly as direct or effective against a pull.

You've admitted that you've changed the attack; you've changed the response. But then you're trying to say that you're using the same principle, because you're using the same hand positions. But you're not striking with either the hammerfist or sword hand; you're shielding behind them, and perhaps incidentally delivering a blow to the arm. Both are attacking on the same level in your technique; in Parker's they attack to different levels (throat & groin). Let me try another food analogy. Both lasagna and spaghetti with meatballs contain tomatoes, pasta and ground beef. They're not the same dish, though, are they?

 

[Chris Parker]

I saw your response, Chris. I appreciate the depth and the detail of your responses in all honesty I do...but it will be even easier than I thought it would be to respond to all of your positions. And truth be told? I knew it would be easy simply based upon your previous posts on this thread. Be back for ya in a minute...

You know what, Ras? Don't bother. You've told me that I'm incorrect in my breakdown of the initial videos, your changes, and more, without being able single out a single thing that is actually incorrect, and when JKS comes along and says exactly what I have said (what the "real" Sword and Hammer is designed to do, what it's designed to be against, where the safeguards are, how you've moved so far away that what you're doing is an unrelated technique for all intents and purposes), you've agreed with him and just said that the flaw is the attackers not actually pulling in the video demonstrations....?!?!

Dude, I said all of that at the beginning. Everything I've said has been held up by both Kenpo practitioners and non-Kenpo practitioners on this thread... the only person who has issues with my comments is you, and you have said you can prove me wrong, but fail to do so each time.

As JKS says, you really don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do. Which is a shame, because you could actually have something. Sadly, you're too wrapped up in "everyone else is wrong, I'm doing something completely different so I'm right!"

So seriously, you have shown a complete lack of understanding of what you're being told, so don't bother coming back with anything, as frankly, you don't have anything to work with.

EDIT: Just something that struck me a moment ago, you started this thread asking for "comment, debate, rude gestures", then three hours later, followed up with a further request for "Thoughts?" I gave a pretty thorough breakdown of the original form, the attacks you showed (which, as others have also said, are unrelated to the actual technique itself), and the myriad problems with your issues. However, since then, you've basically just argued without taking anything on board. This makes me wonder why you post such things up here... you pay lip service to the idea that you're open to learning, but fail to demonstrate it. And when it comes to the second Einstein quote ("The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education"), honestly, that's very much a flawed statement, especially in this context. You have to have a base understanding (education) in order to learn further... but you don't really seem to want to do that.

 

[ATACX GYM]

dude it was a test

I AGREED WITH YOU and you still had to tell me i was wrong

that convinced me that you are only here to argue and i got no time for someone with , how was it put to you? oh yeah:

an unteachable spirit

You might be a great fighter, but you will never be great martial artist.

I doubt you will even see the difference

Actually, what was put to me went along the lines of:"...you might be exactly what we need; the Kenpo of the future if you can stay humble and keep your ego in check..." not "unteachable spirit". That quote of yours is, of course, taken out of context in order to advance your perspective.

All of your other comments that I disagreed with are empirically incorrect for the reasons I already stated.

 

[ATACX GYM]

As I read the notes and Parker's own description of the technique, the goal is to respond nearly instantaneously with the grab, before a punch could land. You're going to move inward, inside the attack, if a punch is coming. And even if you don't beat the punch, that hand sword could become a block/deflection of the attack. If there's no punch, and it's merely a grab to unbalance -- the concern is moot. I think you're trying to make it fit a different situation than it was designed for, kind of like trying to say that a hammer is no good for sawing a board to length.

A small note here. I happen to be a certified LE Defensive Tactics Instructor, and a certified LE Firearms Instructor. I said earlier that there are some things that you don't understand as well as you think you do.

I agree that, in the demonstrations you've selected, the uke is rather passively participating. (It's a complaint I have about a lot of Kenpo demonstrations, to be honest.) But they are simply demonstrations. In many demonstrations, uke does not fully react as they would in a real situation; that's part and parcel of demonstration. After all, the presenters are trying to show the base technique, not every variation or possibility. Let's be real; you probably won't show a take where your demonstration partner up and clocks you, now are you?

The purpose of a demonstration is to present the technique, not highlight every possibility. Experiments and what if's can come in later, when you've worked with it a bit. I don't think you've given the technique a chance, against the attack it's designed for. You're trying to use that hammer as a saw, and then saying it doesn't work.

But are you doing a "more realistic" version of the initiating attack -- or a completely different attack? In the Parker technique, the attacker is either slightly behind or to your right side, and grabbing your shoulder. Kind of a "hey, you..." grab. It may be preparatory to a punch, or simply an unbalancing grab. Perhaps you haven't seen it -- but it does happen. For real. And the energy of a pull is different from a push, or even a simple grab. An appropriate and effective defense against a grab is different from one for a push. ("Grabbing push" is rather an oxymoron, no?) You're showing an effective technique against a push and hold. It's not nearly as direct or effective against a pull.

You've admitted that you've changed the attack; you've changed the response. But then you're trying to say that you're using the same principle, because you're using the same hand positions. But you're not striking with either the hammerfist or sword hand; you're shielding behind them, and perhaps incidentally delivering a blow to the arm. Both are attacking on the same level in your technique; in Parker's they attack to different levels (throat & groin). Let me try another food analogy. Both lasagna and spaghetti with meatballs contain tomatoes, pasta and ground beef. They're not the same dish, though, are they?

Okay pressed for time. Again thanks for your response. I tend to type quickly but since I'm pressed for time I'm going to directly address the comments you made without much preamble. I don't mean to come off as rude or abrasive, I'm just being direct.

Btw, I'm also certified from Rio Hondo Police Academy. Seems like we have something else in common. Although I don't see what bearing this revelation--you being an LE Firearms instructor, my certs from Rio Hondo--has on this specific discussion of Sword and Hammer. I'm glad that you're here, though...you seem like a reasonable and knowledgeable guy.


REGARDING MR.PARKER'S NOTES:

It's my understanding that Mr. Parker was constantly evolving as a martial artist and that he changed many things from their previous expression. I sincerely doubt, based upon what was said to me and many others by an exceptionally high ranking senior who spent plenty of time with Mr. Parker, that Mr. Parker did Sword and Hammer in 1980 the way he did it in 1970 or in the '60s when I think Big Red [ which contains that description of Sword and Hammer] was written. Frankly? The idea of RELIABLY AND CONSISTENTLY--I just want to emphasize this point--PREEMPTIVELY STRIKING an actually aggressive opponent who's attacking you from the flank is flawed. It will not happen reliably period. This technique as written and presented will not work in a fight. It will not work in a fight. Doesn't matter who presented it...it won't work as written. Period. This is a gigantic, gargantuan mistake that imo is inexcusable. At no time should we present a tech that is unworkable as if it is workable. But that's exactly what many people miscall the IP does.

The IDEAL PHASE response is based upon a "best of all worlds" scenario which was supposed to serve the purpose of engaging more realistic training and discussion for a public both untrained in any kind of self defense at the time that Big Red was written [ 1960's-70's ] which, let us not forget, was a public largely unaware of Oriental martial arts. Once the tech was demo'd [ Sword and Hammer in this case] , the onus was put upon the teacher to show more functional, more realistic methods of using said tech in real world scrappin which actually inculcated real world skill for said scenario. Real world skill is not at all what the "best of all worlds" presentation showed. This process--where the teacher was made singularly responsible for merging his/her/their previous martial arts knowledge and experience with the EPAK techs and expressing a FUNCTIONAL method of resolving common street attacks--this is in essence the whole of the approach from THE IDEAL PHASE to THE EQUATION FORMULA. I simply did this and added the principle of 50 Ways to Sunday...the method that Sensei Tanaka taught Mr. Parker and which he popularized by constantly repeating it until it caught on. I also see that you note that I made sure that my uke grabbed and punched me from various angles, not just the flank. You then concluded that doing so changed the attack. This is false. The "change" in the attack I acknowlege is "functionalizing" it. In other words? THERE ACTUALLY WAS AN ATTACK. Uke actually grabbed-pushed and punched repeatedly at me. That's the real world. The "grab cock fist and pose" method that it seems like both you and I have some issues with [ differing issues to some extent, but issues just the same ] was wholly eliminated because that isn't likely to happen in the real world. My expression didn't require the abandoning of the application of The Sword and Hammer, nor will it ever. Instead, my expression requires actually applying Sword and Hammer vs resistance. The method in the notes you quoted above don't. One of the huge benefits in the method that I recommend is that this method also covers the 'grab cock fist and pose' scenario and does so with proper legal moral and considerations. The method that you champion doesn't. Therefore, empirically speaking, my method is superior.

The funny thing is...If you read Infinite Insights? You'll see that before I was born Mr. Parker wrote of defending an attack in a 360 degree circle. This is what I've done...and a bit more. I have, as I always stated before, functionalized the attack. Therefore, I am actually incarnating an expression that Mr. Parker championed before I was born...while specifically eschewing methods which didn't functionally thwart real world attacks and functionally counterattack the aggressor. Interestingly, history shows that I'm much more in lockstep with what Mr. Parker wanted the my detractors by and large are.


I then did what Mr. Parker said that he did with Professor Chow's material...I modernized the attacks and defenses to yield a Kenpo expression more in keeping with today's self-defense needs. By that I mean I adjusted and modified for concerns that I deem necessary, not that I cover every single fighting scenario in the modern world. I can and do train my Sword and Hammer in the Guard, vs armed attacks, multiattacks, before and after rolls, from disadvantaged positions, while being mounted, etc etc etc. I can use every single one of the self-defense techs I know in Motion Kenpo while say...in the Side Mount. I can do Long 2...while on the ground. With weapons. Etc. This isn't me saying: "Bow down to OG ATACX GYM!" No...I'm pointing out that being more well rounded requires creative training paradigms which bestow novel technical approaches. But in order to do that, you must adopt a newer, more progressive mindset. "IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND, YOU CHANGE YOUR WAYS"...another ATACX GYM saying.

Here's something else: the IP as written doesn't work. They never did. They still don't work today...as written. The Sword and Hammer that you quoted above has fatal flaws of functionality in it. Always has. Always will. This state of affairs is inexcusable to me. There is no sufficient justification for its dysfunctional existence at any time imho. Can you go to a wrestling tournament and not see a double or single leg, a high crotch or a over and under tie up...the whole tournament? Can you go to a bjj tourney and NEVER see the guard, or a keylock attempt, or a relogio/clock choke? Can you go to a judo match and NEVER see a seionage, a ashi, a tai otoshi, or pinning or choke attempt? Can you go to a sombo tourney and NEVER see armlock-leglock combo attack? Can you go to a boxing tourney and NEVER see a uppercut or jab? Can you go to a bareknuckle karate tourney and NEVER see a fighter in there throw a front kick or reverse punch? Now...can you go to any and all of these tourneys planetwide and neeever see these techs in tourneys? No? But you CAN go to anywhere kenpoists compete and NEVER see 5 Swords done...NEVER see Glancing Salute or Thrusting Wedge. Or literally any other tech from the alleged IP that supposedly forms the very backbone of Motion Kenpo.

Why is that? It's because what is being mislabeled as the IP is neither functionally shown nor functionally trained. And don't gimme that mess about how the IP is for the street and can't be done in tourneys because:

1) As written, what most people miscall the IP doesn't work.

2) The IP is supposed to be crafted on a case by case basis from student to teacher, so the student could easily learn a functional real world variant of S&H which could easily be ratcheted down for tourney competition

3) I do it all the time [ with staggering success because nobody--including, sadly, kenpoists by and large--is remotely familiar with these techs and have no clue how to defend themselves from these techs thrown at them with any kind of competence. I'll put up video of me and my students doing exactly that in the upcoming tourneys this year ] and I'm not alone in doing this


Here's something that's most important and goes directly along with what Mr. Parker kept saying the most: we shouldn't turn ourselves into Ed Parker or Bruce Lee wannabe clones. We need to formulate our own responses. To think, question, probe, experiment...using EPAK/MOTION KENPO methods techs and principles. We won't all look alike but we will all look similarly enough to each other to be recognizable but we're still highly functional. Those of us with a background focused on performance find this position to be extra elementary and it goes without saying. As an example? Wrestlers use alot of the same techs...but Dan Gable's team, for instance, trains and approaches things differently. Does this mean that Dan Gable's various championship teams didn't do wrestling? No...they wrestled better visavis superior functional training, attracting superior athletes.

That's what we've done at my GYM.


Which lead me to...

WHY DO I ASK FOR CRITIQUE AND QUESTIONS WHEN IT SEEMS LIKE I TAKE UMBRAGE WHEN I RECEIVE WHAT I ASKED FOR:

1) I don't take umbrage regarding critique and questions. I like that stuff...whether it's supportive or not.


2) When I first got online and started asking for critique and questions, I didn't know that by and large Kenpoists weren't functional. I had zero exposure to Kenpolitics til last year. I had no idea of the sillyness which abounds. What I was first envisioning was exchanges like:

"...yeah jk9199 I was doing Sword and Hammer vs a guy who attacked me from behind in practice today. He was armed with a knife and I had real problems with him because I got the chop off but I got stabbed, he tackled me and I got some more gashes as we struggled. If that had been a real street thing? I would've had problems. I disarmed him and finished him but...do you have a suggestion as to how to do this differently or better? Might make all the difference, man..."


jks9199-" Yeah ATACX GYM we did that couple weeks ago and we deployed S&H vs a guy with a gun too. I was having problems too, man. Kept getting shot, and that sucked. But I started enjoying more success when I tried doing Sword and Hammer like THIS right here..."

That's what I thought would happen. Bunch of people who fight with their techs have crafted their own responses to these scenarios and would share for the betterment of us all. Because collectively we could craft better techs than any of us--individuals or massive organizations--could craft alone or in small groups.

Needless to say...none of that happened. Lol. I got flames for not doing things exactly the way other people did stuff.

Okay, back to your reasonable critique...

I am striking with both the sword and hammerfist, contrary to your statement. I suppose you missed it in the video. In Sword and Hammer 1? I apply the Sword and Hammer at 2:11. The second handsword actually happens and is molded into the check down at 2:36. I deleted it on video because my cousin always says that it hurts, but usually and as I teach it in class the handsword is molded into the check. The 3rd handsword is shown on the video as a handsword to the neck along with "marriage of gravity" at 3:10. Another hammerfist merged with Directional Harmony at 3:17, and another handsword directly thereafter.

In Sword and Hammer 1A [ the second video shot at night, this time at a park] I go into depth and detail regarding the importance of the positioning and training multiple variants using Sword and Hammer and then I do the techs, and I show how to do it inside and outside your opponent after you've been struck etc etc. I also bring up [ long before Chris Parker did] the importance of the moral legal and ethical obligations that we most observe and of course there's a blizzard of handsword and hammerfists. I even specifically engage those who disagree with the technical expression I have of Sword and Hammer at 8:35 forward. I say that it's okay to do so. Chris Twin and anyone else of that ilk like maybe Hollywood? You'll like this part and grasp what I'm saying and doing alot faster because not only do I preemptively engage your concerns but I also demonstrate what I mean earlier in the video [ this is before most of you guys put up dissenting posts or thanked dissenters for their posts, remember ]

Sword and Hammer 2: The first Sword and Hammer strike comes at 1:44. I explain it in the video. The second comes at 2:08, right after the explanation from 1:44 is done. And a plethora of Swords and punches and a Hammer or so follow right after that. So yeah there's plenty of swords and hammers in my videos. Lolol


I wanna say more but I've been stealing time in between rounds to write. Can't do that anymore, back to training. Holla atcha guys later and again...thanks for your posts.


AMANI..."peace"...

 

[ATACX GYM]

[SUP]Chris,
Ras isnt doing Ed Parker's Sword and Hammer, so he isnt doing it"wrong" thats how he justifies his position

he is doing something he made up, and since he cant or wont create a unique name for his technique he is just calling it sword and hammer

it is sort of like the dude in Comming to America. He opened a restaurant called McDowell's where they served Big Mic's. The food wasnt bad, he was just shamlessly stealing someone else's hard work

go to hong kong, and they have "Mayboro" cigerettes, red and white package, looks a LOT like some other better known product

and the smokes are not bad, but they are not the real thing.

thats what we have here.

it isnt BAD, but it isnt sword and hammer, his other technique vids are all the same, he takes the names, and does a different attack and different defense and anyone that points that out to him isnt smart enough to get what he is doing.

hell, i AGREED with his technique and he still had to tell me i was wrong

I think he is just here to argue.

seriously.

take this:
[/SUP] "I said I've taught this tech with EASE to beginners for decades and I can do it again. Within 8 hours they'll be able to fight with it. Guaranteed. Because I'm functional? I can usually have them able to pull it off against nonoverwhelming attacks [ little woman attacked by surprise by some huge armed guy or something ] in literally 1 hour of training the tech. Been doing it for decades."

this simply isnt possible.

I will say in no uncertain terms, this isnt possible

you cannot take a person off the street and have them fighting with a technique, ANY technique in 8 hours.

they might remember a sequence of movements in one hour, but they wont have a clue when they are doing, and thier attacks wont have any power and will most likely hurt thier hands more than the person they are trying to hit.

anyone that have actually taught someone knows this.

I don't have the time to address all of this but your analogy is way off. Your understanding of Motion Kenpo is where we have the greatest disagreements at visavis this discussion. Motion Kenpo is supposed to be a combination of the instructor previous knowledge martial training and Kenpo training, expressed using the EPAK medium techs principles concepts etc to forge an individualized unique constantly growing alive system that yet has a consistently recognizable core set of techs and goals.

Not every team trains like Dan Gable's team, and not every team used the techs that Gable came up with [ like the Gable Grip ]...but Gable most assuredly did wrestling. Not some offshoot of wrestling either. Wrestling. I am the Head Coach of THE ATACX GYM. Not everybody does things the way that we do, but we assuredly do Kenpo Karate and we do it very well indeed.

With that said...I can take anyone off the streets who has the strength coordination and ability to walk without serious impairment and literally have them doing Alternating Maces, Attacking Mace, Sword and Hammer, etc. in 8 hours or less. Guaranteed. This is not a guess. I've done it for decades and like I said there are people on this site right now who've seen me walk up to their 17 year old White Belt [ who'd I'd literally just laid eyes on ] and teach him how to break a bear hug with his Kempo salute...in under 5 minutes. Your opinion is your own and you have a right to it; I won't dispute that? If you flat out think that what I said isn't possible? That's cool too; doesn't change the fact but I can will have and still do exactly what I said...and have done it for decades.

 

[Twin Fist]

you say you can do alot

and all you ever have is your word and your ability to ignore everyone else's points...

you have never proven anything, you just disagree and throw up another 10K words (in yet another wall of text no one bothers to even read any more.) that all amounts to "because i said so"

its old. its tired, and it is BO-RING

you might accomplish something one day, if you get rid of your ego, and actually learn the techniques. From a qualified instructor.

Dont bother replying. I wont be reading it. You have nothing to offer.

 

[ATACX GYM]

you say you can do alot

and all you ever have is your word and your ability to ignore everyone else's points...

you have never proven anything, you just disagree and throw up another 10K words (in yet another wall of text no one bothers to even read any more.) that all amounts to "because i said so"

its old. its tired, and it is BO-RING

you might accomplish something one day, if you get rid of your ego, and actually learn the techniques. From a qualified instructor.

Dont bother replying. I wont be reading it. You have nothing to offer.

Believe what you want.

 

[ATACX GYM]

The worst things about the annihilation I'm about to hand out to you guys...is


1)That I have to annihilate you in the first place. Shouldn't be necessary.

2) That I have to resort to quotes and stuff in the first place to annihilate you. There should be a common medium of functional mat experience that we share that I could allude to and simply not have to do this to you guys. But it's extemely extremely doubtful that you guys are even a fraction of what you claim you are visavis functionality.


If you actually did what you claim and/or infer that you do [ that is fight and/or vigorously spar with these and/or other techs ]...we wouldn't need this discussion and we'd be able to have the kind of much more productive chats that I alluded to with jks9199. Instead? I have to drop nukes on you guys not only to hopefully rectify your misconceptions with actual truth and fact, but also to educate and illuminate the many hundreds of others who read these threads and never partake of the give and take in posts...as our positions oftentimes inform or misinform their perspectives and change their perspectives for the better or worse accordingly. There has been far too much damage handed out in the name of Mr. Parker and "real EPAK" and those who sling the name of Mr. Parker and The Ideal Phase about merely to shield their own agendas and to lend credibility to their patently false claims. Many other people are too invested in politics to knock ya head off for such a thing. Not me. ATACX GYM gives not a damn about politics. So here comes some facts that's akin to taking the proverbial gloves off and smackin you guys down. Once and for all. Not because I want to maintain hostility with you...actually the opposite is the case. I'm doing this because it needs to be done and believe it or not? It's also for your own good.


Okay Chris Parker, Twin Fist, and anyone who've agreed with your perspectives...I'm going to give all of you and anyone who reads my threads a real true and serious education visavis Kenpo Karate that literally none of you have. I'd grasped the true essence of this long before I met Doc online, and here's proof from 2010 that what I say is true:


[video=youtube_share;6CQKW5QTJJU]http://youtu.be/6CQKW5QTJJU[/video]

Truthfully, I didn't have as complete an education as I currently do either [ although in these areas I was far ahead of all you due to my absolute insistence upon endlessly testing re-testing and possibly refining every tech from any source for functionality, including my own GM who is also my Uncle ] until I kicked up enough ruckus to cause the real Kenpo Elders to chime in and educate all of us [ there were dozens of us going at it back forth for months ] on KenpoTalk and here on MartialTalk.


WE HAVE IRONCLAD PROOF THAT WHAT MOST OF US [ EVEN ME FOR A WHILE] CALLED "THE IDEAL PHASE" IS NOT "THE IDEAL PHASE". ALL OF US--ME INCLUDED--WERE WRONG TO CONCLUDE IT WAS. HOWEVER, I REFERRED TO "THE IDEAL PHASE" USING THAT NOMENCLATURE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I WAS TOLD IT WAS...AND I ABSOLUTELY INSISTED THAT ALL OF THE PHYSICAL TECHS COMPRISING WHAT IS MISCALLED "THE IDEAL PHASE"[ LIKE THE VIDS I HAD OF MORE TRADITIONAL MOTION KENPO SCHOOLS DOING WHAT THEY CALL "SWORD AND HAMMER" ] ABSOLUTELY DON'T WORK AND ON TOP THAT THEY DON'T MAKE SENSE. THEIR SO-CALLED "IP" DOESN'T WORK RELIABLY IN ANY COMBAT SITUATION. IT DIDN'T WORK BACK THEN IN THE DAY, IT DOESN'T WORK NOW, AND IT WON'T WORK IN THE FUTURE.


Here is a part of what Chris Parker said regarding the techs in what is miscalled the IP vs my techs:

Er... right. Gotta say, you don't actually seem to have any correction for me, though.... And, for the record, I'm not incorrect. So you know.



Hardly a Kempo-particular training method, Ras. We have the same idea in a range of our methods. Catch is, though, that's not what you're doing. Additionally, the very premise of the technique kinda denies performing it in multiple directions, as it'd designed against an attack from a particular direction/side to begin with.



Hang on, are you saying that each instructor and student is supposed to make up what they feel "works" for them, rather than follow what the techniques actually are? Really? Then what makes it that art itself? This is the thing, Ras, there are established techniques, which may have some variation from instructor to instructor, but are fundamentally the same. That is demonstrated with your clips of other instructors showing basically the same thing. It makes it possible for the art to be taught reliably, as well as for intra-organisational and inter-organisational discussion to occur.

As far as the last comments there, frankly Ras, that shows me a fair amount of problems with your approach...



Are you kidding? The technique deals with a grab and attempted punch, and you show blind-siding king-hits (sucker punches), and you think they're the same thing? Then, when both John and I point out the lack of relationship, you say that I'm "massively incorrect"? Ras, I have eyes, you know....

As to the idea of getting hit and not dropped straight away, it's not that I'm saying that doesn't happen, it's that each example you gave showed people being knocked down, and said your technique deals with it. And, for the record, getting knocked around a bit would make it harder for you to perform what you're showing. Not impossible, but a much lower chance of success.



Please. You got the choke on because you were demonstrating, and he was going along with it. The rest of this shows a lot of fundamental gaps in reality, by the way.



But what you're doing only has three things that connect it with Sword and Hammer, and only superficially at that. Namely the angle the attacker approaches from, the use of a sword-hand and hammer-fist (which, by themselves, does not make the technique itself "Sword and Hammer"), and the name. What I was looking for is that you follow what the technique itself follows the strategies and tactics of Sword and Hammer, which it doesn't. As a result, it's not Sword and Hammer. And no, I don't expect the exact same performance, I expect it to be the same method, though.



Wow, this shows a lot of issues in understanding the training methods of many different arts, Ras.



Based on every single other example of the technique, no, it's not. You choose to use the same name due purely to the same fists being used, but that's it. It's not the same technique, which has been our point.



Uh, you may be reading a bit too much into the words there.... I wouldn't say that Ed Parker was suggesting that you initially take a technique (teaching a particular form of response against a particular form of attack), then basically throw out almost everything, change the technique to something unrecognizable from the original, miss the point of the technique in the first place, go against the very lessons it's teaching, in order to make up what you want and call it the same thing. Cause Ras? That's what you've done here.

In terms of telling John to "ignore the label and look at the tech", when you put it up as a version of the initial one and ask for a comparison to be made, to ascertain which one is "better", or "works", but your version isn't anything like the original, the attacks you use to make your point aren't the ones that the technique is designed against, it changes what we look at when we see the technique. If you just put up the videos as a response against a rear grab and punch, fine. But you proffered it as a version of Sword and Hammer, giving the other forms as contrasts. Therefore ignoring the label and just looking at the technique really doesn't work. At all.



Isn't that just the same damn thing you posted in the first place? Seriously, Ras, the answer is the same. As far as "which is better", honestly, I'd prefer the "IP" version, it's a damn solid technique. Yours is too messy, too complicated, too reliant on too many issues, has legal issues (here, at least), and just doesn't come across as anywhere near as reliable.



Really? You talk a lot about being able to "torpedo" others arguments, but I note that you have yet to ever actually do that... or have anything more to say other than "I could prove you wrong, but I'm not going to". I'm far from convinced, Ras. About quite a lot.



And, again, this shows a large gap in your understanding of quite a range of martial training methods, Ras.



Ras, you frankly have no idea whatsoever of what I do. If you can't see the huge issues with the above from my posts, you really don't have the insight you think you do.



No, Ras, it shows a highly limited understanding of martial arts and training. That's blunt, but there it is.

Here is what Twin Fist--a man who allegedly studied Kenpo and according to him grasped the subtleties in a far more superior fashion than I do--said:

[SUP]Chris,
Ras isnt doing Ed Parker's Sword and Hammer, so he isnt doing it"wrong" thats how he justifies his position

he is doing something he made up, and since he cant or wont create a unique name for his technique he is just calling it sword and hammer

it is sort of like the dude in Comming to America. He opened a restaurant called McDowell's where they served Big Mic's. The food wasnt bad, he was just shamlessly stealing someone else's hard work

go to hong kong, and they have "Mayboro" cigerettes, red and white package, looks a LOT like some other better known product

and the smokes are not bad, but they are not the real thing.

thats what we have here.

it isnt BAD, but it isnt sword and hammer, his other technique vids are all the same, he takes the names, and does a different attack and different defense and anyone that points that out to him isnt smart enough to get what he is doing.

hell, i AGREED with his technique and he still had to tell me i was wrong

I think he is just here to argue.

seriously.

take this:
[/SUP]"I said I've taught this tech with EASE to beginners for decades and I can do it again. Within 8 hours they'll be able to fight with it. Guaranteed. Because I'm functional? I can usually have them able to pull it off against nonoverwhelming attacks [ little woman attacked by surprise by some huge armed guy or something ] in literally 1 hour of training the tech. Been doing it for decades."

this simply isnt possible.

I will say in no uncertain terms, this isnt possible

you cannot take a person off the street and have them fighting with a technique, ANY technique in 8 hours.

they might remember a sequence of movements in one hour, but they wont have a clue when they are doing, and thier attacks wont have any power and will most likely hurt thier hands more than the person they are trying to hit.

anyone that have actually taught someone knows this.

HERE'S PROOF THAT ALL OF YOU AND ANYONE WHO AGREES WITH YOU IN ANY RESPECT ABOUT THIS MATTER IS WRONG AND I HAVE BEEN RIGHT SINCE THE FIRST DAY I SAID THIS:

Many contributed IDEAS for the manuals, but they were not IDEALS, but ideas. IDEALS were supposed to be creating by the school heads, based on the the IDEAS provided as a starting point reference, but you could do anything within the framework of the attack. I SAY AGAIN. THERE WERE NEVER ANY IDEALS, ONLY IDEAS.

To which I replied:

See,that's the stuff I want to know about. Who created the specific ideals that became so ingrained in Kenpo that they have been collectively referred to as the "Ideal Phase" instead of what Mister Parker very clearly defined as thee REAL "Ideal Phase"? How did virtually universal acceptance of the same or essentially the same dysfunctional techs become accepted and law? I cannot believe that such a universal accord has been reached that--nearly 50 years after the creation of the IP--nearly every major school and organization's IP is the same,and that was somehow accidental. I also find it hard to believe that all of those fueding,well paid Motion Kenpo BBs that Mr. Parker brought on board could snipe slash snarl and gore one another...basically decide that they made enough money not to need to listen to Mr.Parker about his system...and then turn around and agree virtually across the board on the remarkable similarity of expression in the IP,sets and forms.

So how did that happen?...

...And who made Blinding Sacrifice? Can we actually trace specific IP moves to specific creators?

To which Doc Dave innahouse--another of the Top 4 Kenpo Elders on KT--responded:

...As for the techs, some were impromtu (sp?) discussions about things early students ran into. "I got tooled by this guy who grabbed me by the wrist, and did this thing to me... hurt like hell". So Mr. P puts together a tech against that attack. It starts as a "The next time that happens, try this":. After a few years of contemplation, a few tweaks get made to turn it into a viable learning lab for some movement concepts. He goes from teaching it as a "Defense against a Front Wristlock", to using it as an opportunity to dialogue with those willing to listen about something like guided collision, destabilization of an attackers base via their appendicular limbs, etc. Trouble is, most folks don't listen.

If one was willing to remain in "uptime", and try to take what's being offered rather than reaffirming ones own suspected biases, there was always a wealth of information falling out of his head. Mostly, though, he sorta gave up unless specifically asked. because people stopped listening. It was more advantageous to already know, than to shut up and learn.

My question annoyed Doc, lol, because it reminded him of old discussions and old wounds that were REALLY annoying. Lol. So Doc responded with:

You really need to let the word "ideal" go. Try this; THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE. What is there exists because people moved up the ranks and became instructors with no knowledge, skill, or experience. These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed to. Each school, group, club etc was supposed to have one person who would set the IDEAL but only for their group. What you have is a bunch of people all taking the ideas in a manual and teaching it because that's all they have. So removes the word IDEAL from your vocabulary, unless you are talking about IDEALS you created that you teach for your students. That is the only ideal there is. What YOU CREATE.

You're misinformed, and I explained how the manual became the IDEAL for the majority when it was never supposed to be. It was only a guide to begin the process, but absent experience, knowledge, and skill that allowed you to think through the process the manual is all you need whether it works or not. Call it LAZY, call it whatever you want, just don't call them "universally" accepted, because its not true...

The "manual" Doc refers to in the above quote is Big Red...something I'd never heard of prior to my thread with Doc in which he revealed its existence.

So YES Twin Fist and Chris Parker...exactly like I've been telling you guys...there should NEVER have been an Ideal "TECHNIQUE" that is universally applied throughout Kenpodom and passed off as Mr. Parker's wishes. Most especially, there should NEVER have been ANY tech in Kenpo's IP that hasn't been and isn't constantly stress tested by the very nature and definition of the IP. If you take a common street attack, you're SUPPOSED TO determine a specific Kenpo counter to said attack and keep working said counter against escalating levels of resistance until you're facing the full tilt boogie throwdown. THERE ARE NO TECHS IN ANY SO-CALLED TRADITIONAL KENPO IP VIDEO OR SEQUENCE THAT RELIABLY WORK AGAINST THE ATTACK THAT THEY'RE PURPORTED TO DEFEAT. This is instantly and immediately apparent to anyone who's actually fought before...and that's the reason that I fashioned my own FUNCTIONAL responses. The killer is? In doing so I did EXACTLY what Mr. Parker wanted us to do. On top of that? The work of resolving the attack from one angle spawns the necessity of solving the same attack or common variants of the same attack or one attack that morphs into a variant of the previous from other angles...with the same tech. In this case, that tech is Sword and Hammer. But you can and should imho do this with every Kenpo tech.

The split second I read critiques like Chris' and Twin Fist's of the above I knew immediately that nobody who wrote it actually regularly sparred and fought in the scenario we're talking about using the techs we're talking about. It's not possible. Cuz in the process of scrappin...in 'the fog of combat'...situations would've arisen wherein you were grabbed and attacked in all kinds of permutations but you could only use Sword and Hammer to resolve it. That's what happened to me and EVERYBODY who actually fights and spars with the tech. Immediately we set about deploying Sword and Hammer or whatever ACTUAL IP tech in these other scenarios as well...and you get a vastly superior grasp of technique, movement, and literally all other goodies extant in combat training than any other person who doesn't do the work that I have in my Gym and others have in theirs. I can do and will again apply my Sword and Hammer vs knife wielding foes. In multifights. On the ground. While I'm carrying and holding a weapon. In the clinch. After being tackled. While pinioned on a wall. Etc etc.

The man who can do more with a tech understands it better knows it better and does it better than the man whose training and mindset restricts him to doing less. Period point blank. Insisting that Sword and Hammer can ONLY be deployed vs a specific kind of shoulder grab requiring the opponent to attack you in a specific kind of way not only shows the mental limitations of the personal opining such a thing, it flies in the face of what the definition of the IP is. Worse, it also ingrains and inculcates a system-wide lack of versatility...and a special level of stupidity.

I would love to see a boxing coach try to tell his boxer to jab a guy only if he's off your right shoulder, cocks his fist back...and doesn't move.

That's stupidity on its face. If you can jab? You can jab anywhere. You can jab them in a box. You can jab them with a fox. You can jab them in a house. You can jab them near a mouse. You can jab them here and there. You can jab them anywhere. You can jab them with green eggs and ham. You CAN jab them, Sam I am! Lolol. Same with Sword and Hammer and literally almost ANY Kenpo tech...you CAN Sword and Hammer them, Chris and Twin! You can Sword and Hammer them and kids...you'll win!! You can Sword and Hammer them and smash them up...if you train them functionally like ATACX GYM does!! Lololol.

You're touching on a lot of stuff here Ras. And a lot of it "just isn't discussed" in polite kenpo society. Asking who ranked who is a little touchy, and tends to devolve pretty quickly. But hey, go for it. Nothing wrong with history.

I wasn't there. I don't feel comfortable speaking to anything specifically because all I could give you is hearsay. I'm sure what everyone did at the time seemed right to them. In the long run, it's what you bring to the table that matters. As for how the "IP" motion techniques got disseminated, you have to remember the context of the time. There weren't that many people doing karate, Mr. Parker was one of the most prominent practitioners, and a lot of people in the arts were flocking to him for a lot of reasons. He was hiring his curriculum out all over the country and traveling to support that all the time. I've never seen Big Red, but every kenpo manual I've seen reads pretty much the same so I imagine they are patterned off of it. If that's the case, the techniques are universally recognized because they come from the same root. For example, it probably said DELAYED SWORD - DO THESE MOVES - TEACH THEM THIS. The problem, as it has been described here, seems to be that some instructors were taking the ball and just not running with it. Instead of building on that foundation and getting better, they just taught that and essentially "let Mr. Parker do the work." So he runs around trying to keep the ball in the air and everyone else just rides on his coattails. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying this is how I'm interpreting what's being described. If this is the case, I think we have to acknowledge that Mr. Parker was probably just smarter and better than a lot of the people who walked in his shadow. He had access to instructors the likes of which most of us will never know, in a time and place where karate was popular and Masters were available, and he made a lot of connections and learned a lot. I'm not trying to denigrate his hard work, but he was also in a unique position. It was his destiny. So when he passes his knowledge at that point in his training around, a lot of the instructors who picked it up probably didn't understand it themselves. They were learning from it, they weren't in any position to improve upon it. I've trained in kenpo for fifteen years and I'm still learning from his system all the time. How could those instructors, who just bought this book of lessons, possibly improve upon them in any short term fashion that would differentiate the lessons significantly within the first few generations?

I think you are seeing this happen now. All over the place, "motion" kenpo instructors are making changes. They are creating techniques, or adding techniques, or changing techniques, or the order of techniques. They each teach what works for them, which according to Doc, was the plan all along. It just took fifty years to get rolling. And now, I imagine successive generations will continue that evolution.

I think the answer to "why are all the techniques recognizably similar" is "because they all came from the same root, which was Mr. Parker's instructions to the instructors beneath him." I think the answer to "why didn't those instructors make changes to create their own expression of the ideas in the curriculum" is "they are, it just took decades to get good enough at kenpo to make any meaningful contribution to what they were given to start out with." And of course, some people have no interest in adding to what they were initially taught. Some people are happy just to reproduce what someone else has done, and leave it at that. Some people enjoy tradition for the sake of tradition.


-Rob

Yep! Mr. Parker gave the the "Ideal Phase" concept, but never gave the "Ideal Technique." In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, but instead they took the Ideas in the manual, even when they didn't make sense and just taught whatever it said. Nobody cared whether they worked or not, all they wanted was to meet the requirements so they could get promoted. Then they turned around and did the same thing with their own students. Apparently, for many, thinking was optional.

"Apparently, for many, thinking was optional".

Devastating. True. Well put.

We at THE ATACX GYM are often lauded for our athleticism, but we are not given props for our intellectual prowess and acumen. We are a group of sharp thinkers...no ego. No bragging. We are sharp thinkers. There are those who try to downplay our intelligence BECAUSE we're also very athletic...instead of understanding that we're very athletic BECAUSE we're very intelligent. Our intelligence--and more specifically mine-- is what has allowed me to lock on to the positions and expressions I have championed for decades. And every syllable is true. I was right about what I said about Sword and Hammer and I'm right about the 8 hour guarantee too [ I guarantee I can take anyone who walks into my Gym and teach them a technique that they'll be able to fight with on the street in 8 hours or less. GUARANTEED or you get your money back ].


So yes Chris Parker, exactly as I said it was...each teacher is to create their own IP based upon the ideas suggested as a starting point and reference. This is actually a brilliant freakin idea because all Motion Kenpo schools would have the Kenpo techs concepts principles etc as their common glue but could arrange them in any fashion they chose; which spawns and encourages individuality, creativity and functionality...if your brain cells are working. Unfortunately? Faaaarrrrr tooo many elder Kenpo Black Belts and their students didn't have their brain cells working. They lacked the requisite technical skill and life experience to pass on the Ideal as Mr. Parker wanted.

I--good ole renegade ATACX GYM--without once being exposed to Kenpolitics or any other doctrine other than Maximum Function No Excuses--essentially glommed upon the same thing that Mr. Parker spoke of. That means that I'm functional and am essentially on a somewhat similar or kindred track to Mr. Parker's. And all of you--every last one of you--who supported Chris Parker's or Twin Fist's positions even fractionally are wrong. You may be wrong because like tens of thousands of others [ includng me ] you were massively misinformed as to what THE IDEAL PHASE actually WAS. But that misinformation wouldn't've stood even a fraction of a single FUNCTIONAL test. That means...point blank period...all of you. Every single one of you. Who supported Chris Parker's and Twin Fist's position...do NOT fight with your so-called self-defense IP techs. You don't regularly and intensely spar with them either. You can say whatever you want about that, and I'm not being insulting here. But you didn't do it. I did and I still do. That's how I and all my students and my GM have managed to capture and practice the essence of what Mr. Parker and any sensible performance oriented person wanted from jumpstreet: common functionality unlimited high performance combined with unrestricted individualism and creativity. It's an amazingly simple yet [ especially for the times he was championing this which was the '60's ] brave and highly unorthodox, totally nontraditional move for a martial artist to make.

Tens of millions of others have long inculcated the maxim of maximum functionality too...but most of them are sports guys. Why? Because sports exalts performance and performance oriented training above all else. We in the traditional martial arts [ TMA ] as a whole have lost too much of that focus on performance. If we get it back? We will propel TMA far ahead of MMA and any other sport. The fact that we as a whole lost it is all our fault. Nobody else's. It's on us. Our fault. And only a focus on Functionality sans excuses will bring us back. Like I say in my videos...you don't have to do it exactly the way I do it, but your techs had better work against what they claim to work against. That means that you gotta fight and spar and train with them. Whatever nomenclature that you're familiar with which means "test your stuff a whoooollle lotta times under fighting conditions prior to passing it on as workable, then test it ad infinitum some more with an eye toward improving on your techs hopefully daily" is what we're after.



If you guys wanna read the rest of how Doc and others prove how wrong you are [ and like I said I include myself in some of that, particularly how I and likely all of you were misinformed as to what THE IDEAL PHASE was and conflated The Ideal PHASE with The Ideal TECHNIQUE; and how there was never supposed to be a single universal Ideal TECHNIQUE and how the people purporting this Ideal TECHNIQUE are ALL WRONG and how my insistence on functionality put me directly on the track of being 100% RIGHT here] you can read this thread. Here's the link:

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/show...ORMS-AND-SETS-amp-IPs-LIKE-BLINDING-SACRIFICE




So Twin Fist? You ever see that movie "COMING TO AMERICA"? Yeah...if you have? ATACX GYM=MCDONALD'S...and all those other guys conflating the Ideal PHASE with the Ideal TECHNIQUE are MCDOWELL'S. That includes you, at this writing. Not dissin, just speakin truth. What's worse though...is that MCDOWELL'S at least had the decency to recognize the fact that they're MCDOWELL'S...and not MCDONALD'S. You, Chris Parker [ in this thread at least] and anyone who cosigned with you guys don't even have the awareeness to recognize the MCDOWELL'S of yourselves and the MCDONALD'S of the ATACX GYM. Lol.

"To make a tech right for a fight? You gotta work that tech right so it fights".--THE ATACX GYM

IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW, IT'S HOW AND WHY YOU TRAIN--THE ATACX GYM.


Now that we know that my expression is indeed 100% in lockstep with THE REAL Ideal Phase...can we get to examining it for functionality? And...are any of you doing techs that aren't the incredily incorrect so-called Ideal Phase [ which is really a universal Ideal TECHNIQUE that came about by NOT doing what Mr. Parker specifically wrote about and urged us to do ] that you came to via testing your techs combatively in this situation? Do you have any ACTUAL Ideal Phase Sword and Hammer like me?

Or is THE ATACX GYM a renegade because he has actually done what Mr. Parker has urged in his writings? Are my critics--who claim to have a superior grasp of Kenpo than I do, yet are doing exactly what Mr. Parker said SHOULDN'T be done by slavishly copying and never testing for themselves combatively a tech like Sword and Hammer--incapable of grasping the ACTUAL principles of Mr. Parker's in Infinite Insights and are so lacking in creativity and understanding that they can't do as they're urged and bade to do visavis Kenpo's REAL IP?

Show to me...prove to me via video...that I'm not the only one doing as Mr. Parker urged. I know I'm not the only one...so who on MartialTalk has the the guts the stuff the technique and the gumption to step up and show Kenpo that Mr. Parker would be proud of besides me? [ And Doc Chapel, and Doc Dave innahouse...]

 

[ATACX GYM]

Watching this back and forth, I was spurred to do some research.



From SL4 Concepts by Ron Chap'el

Ras, after reading a lot of your posts, I have no doubt that you are very skilled, very knowledgeable, and very passionate about your training. But, I think there are also areas where you don't know nearly as much as you think, and you're trying to apply your incomplete or external understanding of some training methods. At the same time, I think you're also catching grief for being "different", and that sometimes people aren't seeing what you're saying because of that.

I've never trained Kenpo, under any format. My understanding, based on readings & interviews from Ed Parker, Ron Chap'el, and others, is that each of the named techniques embodies a concept or ideal. The name contains a code of sorts to the concept or ideal, as well as the weapons employed. Training takes place at several levels or across different approaches. In the beginning, the technique is learned exactly as shown, against a scripted attack with an attacker going along. Later, the technique can be adapted and the principle applied against less predicted attacks. As long as that principle is maintained, the technique is "true" to the concept.

Now, let's look at Sword & Hammer. I found this page which gave a thorough breakdown of the model technique. My understanding is that the technique begins by being grabbed and pulled, from the right side. The response is to turn and step into the pull, delivering first a chop to the attackers throat then a hammer to the groin. The page attributes the following description to Ed Parker himself:


Let's look at that technique for a second. You're grabbed, perhaps to be pulled into a punch -- so you ride that pull into the attack, using his energy and your own motion to strike him and disrupting that potential punch, then before he can recover from the initial strike, you deliver another shot that hopefully will be a serious deterrent. If all goes according to plan, the attacker is probably gasping past a spasming (or crushed) throat while simultaneously dealing with the nausea and pain of a major strike to the groin. You're in a position to do more, if necessary, as well. I like this technique. It's solid, can be taught quickly, and relies on gross body movements. I like that you're moving into the attacker; you neutralize a lot of potential further attacks that way. It's not a perfect technique, though, in my opinion. You're inside your attacker, and he has a number of options if the first shot doesn't sufficiently shatter his attention. Groin shots aren't 100% reliable.

So, let's look at your ATACX GYM version. Rather then turn in, you step and turn away, shielding as you turn. You expect your opponent to strike at you again, so you step into that strike, again shielding, clinch and begin to knee and strike your attacker. It's not a bad technique -- but it's significantly different from the original. The initial attack has changed; it's no longer a grab and pull, it's a push and pummel. You've lost the hand sword and hammer fist, instead using similar hand positions as a shield for your turn and entry. Like I said, I wouldn't call it a bad technique. There are things here I like, too. It's a good redirection, and your emphasis on covering as you enter is good. You're nicely set up for knees, kicks, elbows, and more when you enter.

But your version is built around a different attack, and different principles in response. It's not really a better version of Sword & Hammer, any more than a custard is a better version of a souffle. They're both egg-based dishes, but that's about where the resemblance ends.

​

A SENSIBLE POST MAN. Glad you replied. But there are a few things about Motion Kenpo that perhaps you weren't aware of and which I have to inform/remind you of.

First...as I have repeatedly stated and which Doc confirms...there is no ironclad Ideal TECHNIQUE. This is the whole process as Mr. Parker wrote it down from Ideal Phase to Equation Formula:

Taken from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo ver. 1.0 ...

(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.

(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)

(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".

Read this. Absorb this. Then observe what I have done...and conclude emphatically that not only does my expression fit literally every definition of the ACTUAL IP as Mr. Parker wrote it? My IP fulfills the common sense requirement of actually working in a scrap. Not just the scenario envisioned as a "lab" of sorts to start out working Sword and Hammer...but through diligent practice understanding and application in various and sundry scenarios, I have done what Dr. Dave innahouse also stated that Mr. Parker wanted us to do, to wit: use a tech and a scenario as a jumping off point to study and expand our applicable combat knowledge of movement, targeting, technique selection and application [ why select such and such tech as opposed to this and that tech and what are the impacts of either or all and which would be yield the most salutory effect under such and such conditions, etc ] and all benefits extant from intelligent, highly informed, highly focused, wholly functional martial arts training.

The tech that you quoted from Mr. Parker was a starting point. It was a template...not the mandated singular expression set in stone inflexible perfect Sword and Hammer. Remember, THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. Only the Ideal Phase CONCEPT. No single expression of the Sword and Hammer is the inflexible Ideal TECHNIQUE because there never was and can never be a single Ideal TECHNIQUE.

However, there ARE expressions of Sword and Hammer which are MORE CORRECT than others. The simple litmus test for that is there are some Sword and Hammer expressions which are MORE FUNCTIONAL than others. The videos of the Sword and Hammer that Chris Parker, Twin Fist and even you my friend cited are DYSFUNCTIONAL. They DO NOT work reliably. That alone means that my functional reliable Sword and Hammer is forever and ever better than theirs...but my Sword and Hammer is NOT and never will be THEE Ideal TECHNIQUE because as we know the Ideal Phase requires each tech to be made by the head of the group organization club whatever on a case by case basis...and the techs are supposed to work against genuine energetic resistance. Those other guys' IP simply dropped the ball. Mine didn't doesn't won't can't and never will...cuz mine works. Reliably. Almost all the time. There's fails. Reliably. Almost all the time. There ya go.

I showed via video that not only could I resolve this scenario realistically? I took the whole of the process from THE IDEAL PHASE to THE EQUATION FORMULA and expressed it in one manifestation of a technique. Very difficult to do, and it took some work...and it absolutely mandates matwork against resisting partners. Period. I did and keep doing the work that literally no other so-called IP tech which is merely a copy of a tech sans any real world resistance reality check can do, and I did EXACTLY what Mr. Parker wanted for us to do too.

Oh yeah...like I said before? I made it a point to include the rigid expression of Sword and Hammer that other guys have and show why it doesn't work and then show an expression that DOES work. Observe:

[video=youtube_share;AuvuhW1u2WE]http://youtu.be/AuvuhW1u2WE[/video]


It's not the only time I've done this, but I specify this video for guys who have a conniption fit if the attacker isn't directly off my flank and attacks. Lololol. Simply voicing such a concern as theirs proves that they haven't fought with it. You don't need to be 90 degrees in front of a guy to jab him. You just jab him. That's proof that you're jabbing. Doesn't matter where the bad guy is or what he's doing...if I Sword and Hammer you? You've been Sword and Hammered. Very simple.

Dealing with these variants...50 Ways to Sunday...is a staple of Tracy Kenpo. Since the foundational Kenpo I was taught was actually a blend of Tracy, EPAK, and other stuff? The 50 Ways to Sunday and multiple functional branches that come from a general response from a general attack forms a seminal part of all the techs that I teach.


If you check the date on my video? You'll see that I covered and responded to critiques and concerns raised on this thread...months before the various posters like Chris and Twin wrote them and long before guys like Hollywood134 cosigned those concerns. And in so doing I showed that I was right there too...and my detractors [ even the well-meaning ones ] were false.

 

[MJS]

Geeze...how the hell did I miss this thread? LOL! Anyways, I'll toss my .02 into the mix. So, if I'm reading right, the main issue is that S&H (Sword and Hammer) is no longer S&H mainly due to it not being the way that we'd typically see it taught in Kenpo schools. Ras made drastic changes, thus why call is S&H? So...that being said....rather than change the technique altogether, why not just do the base technique. If something were to change, ie: the badguy pushes, pulls, changes his attack, goes to punch, etc, just simply adapt to the new situation, and go from there? That way, you're technically still doing S&H, because thats what you started off with, but if/when the BG did something other than simply grab, you adapted.

I say this because this is what I do. Actually, thats not 100% correct. What I do is simply respond to whats happening. I'm not setting out to do S&H or any other tech., in its entirety. Maybe I'd just knock the guys hand off, if possible. Maybe I'd kick him. Honestly, who knows what I'd do...lol.

Thoughts?

 

[Twin Fist]

:deadhorse

more 10K wordgasms

 

[Twin Fist]

Geeze...how the hell did I miss this thread? LOL! Anyways, I'll toss my .02 into the mix. So, if I'm reading right, the main issue is that S&H (Sword and Hammer) is no longer S&H mainly due to it not being the way that we'd typically see it taught in Kenpo schools. Ras made drastic changes, thus why call is S&H? So...that being said....rather than change the technique altogether, why not just do the base technique. If something were to change, ie: the badguy pushes, pulls, changes his attack, goes to punch, etc, just simply adapt to the new situation, and go from there? That way, you're technically still doing S&H, because thats what you started off with, but if/when the BG did something other than simply grab, you adapted.

I say this because this is what I do. Actually, thats not 100% correct. What I do is simply respond to whats happening. I'm not setting out to do S&H or any other tech., in its entirety. Maybe I'd just knock the guys hand off, if possible. Maybe I'd kick him. Honestly, who knows what I'd do...lol.

Thoughts?

i dont think he knows or ever learned the base technique

 

[Twin Fist]

uh, no one in this thread ever argued that the so called ideal phase was functional, so ALLL YOUR ******** about how you "annihilate" people?

thats just you creating a cloud of BS smoke to cover up for the fact that you dont know the techniques, and never learned what the techniques are supposed to teach you.

you are arguing with yourself

I never said the IP was perfect, but you have devoted 10's of thousands of words to why i am wrong to do so...

i said the technique you are doing isnt bad.

again 1000's of words about how i am wrong.....

Chris Parker isnt even a kenpo guy, and he didnt say ANYTHING about the ip you even quote him, and NOPE, it isnt in there

but we are again subjected to your written diarrhea.....

dude, you need serious psychological help.

you aint got any nukes, fact is, you are not 1/10th as smart about anything MUCH LESS martial arts as you like to tell everyone you are.

think on this.

NO ONE on this site consistantly and reguarly praises themseves the way you do.

NO ONE makes the clearly bogus claims you feel the need to make

no one.