Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by ATACX GYM, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    Chris, he is going for specificity because I told him he has a tendency to talk right past the points made by people. He is doing all this clarifying and specifying so that he doesn't miss the points in the first place.

    Humor him a bit. He is trying a method I suggested, which is new to him. He is actively trying to change the way he posts.

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
     
  2. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    is this the post u are referring to,chris?
     
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  3. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    ^^^ is the above an accurate summation of your concerns?
     
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  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    I understand that, Josh, but I don't see how much more specific I could be than telling him (repeatedly) that the videos he himself posted are taken as the baseline. Reposting them doesn't actually add much more specifics or detail. He was told this, and continued to insist, which just has him coming across as being difficult (to be diplomatic about it).

    Those are the videos I'm referring to, yes.

    Look to the following paragraphs:

    From there I started asking you what makes you claim your technique as related to the first ones you posted, as it shares no real similarities. And, 35 pages later, here we are. Still asking the same question.
     
  5. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    [​IMG] Originally Posted by Chris Parker [​IMG]
    Then we get you changing the structure of the attack by keeping your opponent on your left shoulder, but having them grab with their left hand... which completely removes the attack that's actually seen in Sword and Hammer, as well as removing the targets, body positioning, and more, altering the timing and rhythm of the sequence entirely, and basically necessitating a completely different technique, which, to be blunt, is what you're doing. This is no longer the Yellow Belt Technique "Sword and Hammer" from the American Kempo system, as there are almost no aspects of it left, other than similar fists being used."


    The sequence which you refer to as "Sword and Hammer" is not "Sword and Hammer". As I said to you very very early on in this thread when I first answered your question above...there is no universal, inflexible expression of Sword and Hammer. It is a codification of an OUTLINE of a sequence in the teaching manual called BIG RED which proffers LOOSE GUIDELINES on this sequence for the purpose of teaching other instructors how to craft THEIR OWN "IDEAL PHASE TECHNIQUES". I have given this answer to you for 2/3rds of this thread. It is factually indisputable, whether you wish to accept it as such or not.

    What I have done is also a part of the American Kenpo lineage: I applied the "50 Ways to Sunday" [taught to Mr. Parker by Prof. Chow and O'Sensei Oshita to Ed Parker prior ] and The Web of Knowledge categories of attack and h2h and CQB defined ranges of attack to this Ideal Phase concept and OUTLINE for Sword and Hammer. The result is my Sword and Hammer expression. This is why my Sword and Hammer IS A "Sword and Hammer Idea", this is why my expression satisfies every requirement of The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process as listed and defined by Mr. Parker, and is in complete lockstep with primary principles in Kenpo..while at the same time my expression is radically different than any and all others.

    I came about this expression through direct combat and training testing that started in the scenario proffered [ the flank shoulder grab ]. I tested quite a few grab variants from various flank positions. This video shows some of them, not all of them.




    "Your second version. Well, you start off saying it's nothing like what others would have been taught, and, well, yeah. Because you have barely included anything from the original, other than the name and certain fists. Other than that, tactically it's a completely different technique, rythmically it's a completely different technique, strategically it's a completely different technique, mechanically it's a completely different technique, philosophically it's a completely different technique... really, it's just a completely different technique. "<--CHRIS PARKER

    See my previous answer.

    "Honestly, if I was to offer you some advice, it would be to not automatically take the tact that every single technique is supposed to be an exact representation of violence, and to look for what it's teaching you. It seems to me that you tend to want to go to something you feel is more "realistic" without really looking at what is there in the first place... and that leads to some big gaps in what you're presenting."

    I disagree with your premise above. First? Imo whatever lessons one can learn from less combatively viable sequences...one can learn better, sooner with a sequence that's also combatively viable. Further, realistic combat techniques impart lessons that no other technique can hope to teach. But there is a way to do it. Allow me to clarify more quickly what my thoughts and opinions are about this matter:



    Matt Thornton TRAINING AND THE I-METHOD [ I learned this method decades ago and we called it the I:3 TEACHING ]




    So my variant is the result of a combination of Kenpo principles and training paradigms predating our birth combined with my personal martial arts experiences. Exactly as Mr. Parker wished. The difference in my expression is why my expression birthed THE ATACX GYM KENPO and is not Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate...which is also what Mr. Parker wished. Individual expression that's constantly evolving with the common root being Kenpo and using Kenpo concepts, principles, training methods, etc.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  6. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    1 & 4) Yes, IIRC, I asked about the method you use. I gave my interpretation of it, which you said was correct, that being, that you take a tech, ie: S&H, break it down into smaller parts, drill those parts, gradually adding in more. My theory is simply that I do the same, only I like to get the students to the point where they 'forget' about the tech so to speak, and simply act, adjust, accordingly to the situation being presented. In other words, instead of saying, "Ok, guy is grabbing me, I'll do S&H. Ok, something is going wrong. Let me now go to the tech in the laundry list of 100+, that addresses this situation." Sorry, IMHO, things happen to fast for one to have to sort thru and find the right response, ie: tech to now meet the new challenges. Instead, what basic, principle, concept, idea, can I fall back on? IMO, THAT is the better route to take.

    2) Chris, IMHO, is probably one of the most knowledgeable folks on this forum. As for posting video...I wont speak for him as to why he wont/doesnt want to do it. IMO, its really a moot point, as I'd wager if he did, his views would still be deemed wrong by some. I think that its fairly easy, for a skilled MAist, to view a clip of something, and figure out whether or not its great, good, sub-par, or awful. LOL.

    3) Again, dont wanna speak for him, but IMO, I'd say his thoughts are in line with what I've said...that 99.99% of the Kenpo schools that we see out there, all perform the same tech. I can post a clip of Palanzo and the Casa guys, doing S&H and I'd bet dollars to donuts, it'd look the same.
     
  7. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    1&4) There is more to my method than what we spoke of, but I knew we both had limited time...so I focused on the area that would expedite the results that you sought. Sequences techniques and principles become automatically performed and grasped with the right kind of training paradigm, I completely agree. As we all should know, properly ingrained principles generally ensure that the right attacks, defenses, escapes etc are properly executed under pressure even if they are not previously memorized, previously practiced scripted techniques or sequences.

    2) Video shows visual evidence of what he's talking about, and makes a gigantic difference. Imagine how the Rodney King case would have turned out...without the video squarely contradicting the lies of the police officers. Furthermore, observe this thread: it's highly highly unlikely that this thread would be as long as it is without the video I provided contrasting my movement and expression with the dysfunctional general so-called IP expression. He would not have any specifics whatsoever to hang his criticisms on. I strongly suspect that he knows that the same and more is waiting for him should he gather the conviction to show himself doing anything martial on video.

    3) I agree wholeheartedly, and that yet again is the problem. There was never supposed to be such unanimity of expression...especially unanimity of dysfunctional expression...in EPKK. It goes against the very definition of The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process coupled with the means to achieve same as defined by BIG RED.
     
  8. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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  9. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    So I am reading through infinite insights and I realized something.. Ras wouldn't bet doing Sword AND Hammer, because he is delivering a sword WITH a hammer each time I have seen him on video. Obviously there are other problems, but just by the lexical definition of AND in kenpo, he wouldn't be doing it.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Knowing I'm not going to get the answers to these, but I didn't want Ras' last posts to go unanswered, as he's still just not getting it...

    Right. Hopefully you'll see this, Ras, but if not, let's clear up your misunderstanding of the question, and the lack in your answer.

    As you say, "Sword and Hammer" is from an outline found in Big Red. How is your technique Sword and Hammer when you aren't following that outline? What is the outline itself? How is your technique following it?

    See, that's been the question, Ras. You've been asked what makes your technique related to the one you yourself are contrasting it with, but you have failed completely to answer that, instead hiding behind your misunderstanding of the idea that "there are no universal, concrete techniques". That's why I have told you for the entire thread that your answer was not really answering what was being asked. The fact that you couldn't see past your misunderstanding to hear the actual question is the only part of that that is "factually indisputable".

    The principles of Kempo weren't the discussion, Ras, the principles of Sword and Hammer were. I'd also suggest that, based on the links and quotes you yourself presented, you have really missed the point of things such as "50 Ways to Sunday". But the question remained, what principles are necessary for a Kempo technique to be considered Sword and Hammer, as yours shares almost nothing with everyone elses... which makes it a completely different technique on pretty much every level.

    Yeah, you've shown that video a few times, and each time you've been told that you've got a fair few mistakes in there, from your base concept of "reality" onwards. And how you came up with your technique there (by experimenting with different responses against a range of different attacks, with only the angle of attack in common) really does tell me that you had nothing relating to Sword and Hammer to base it on, hence there being no real connection between your technique and the one you were contrasting it with.

    Your previous answer (hell, all your previous answers) were rather lacking, though.

    Actually, no. The chaos of "realistic training" can make it harder, or slower to get certain lessons imparted. I'll put it this way, when you're learning to write, do you start off by forming letters, then words, or do you start off by writing stories? The answer is that you start with the words and letters, then you learn structure, then you can learn to put things together as sentences and stories. And you can only do that because you've learnt the lessons (letters) in a structured, definite way.

    Please. Matt Thornton may have a decent following, but frankly he's rather misguided when it comes to traditional training methods, including the amount of "aliveness" (which is just a terrible phrase, really) that is present, both in how and where it exists. When it comes to his I Method (of course you did it first, and had a similar but slightly different name for it...), a student of mine, when she came across these videos on another forum, asked me if we could do something like that. I took her through our entire training methodology, and pointed out that we do everything that Matt thinks traditional martial artists don't, as well as having better structure for more than what Matt's approach takes into consideration.

    He's not someone to use to sway me to thinking you know what you're on about. Especially when you can't put it in your own words.

    Yeah, I got that, and said as much in my very first post here... but the question is what basis is there for you to make a comparison between the other version of Sword and Hammer and your technique? There really isn't one... which was the whole point that you missed for 36 pages....

    No, you were wrong. Again. Yeah, I know, you can't defend your statement, but honestly you'd just tell me that you are empirically better and so on, so I don't think it's a huge loss... but, for the record, your assessment of how to ingrain principles is only really a valid approach for a Defensive Tactics approach, not the gigantic list of techniques and responses that you're trying to put across. Especially if you're expecting it all to be ingrained "before white belt".

    You're kidding, yeah? The argument for me putting up a video is Rodney King? Because the video helped in the trial? Really? You remember how that trial went, yeah? And besides, it's not like we needed a video of police officers helping Rodney across the street to know that the video of them beating him was wrong, did we? Because that's what you're arguing, you know...

    And did you really miss when I said that my criticisms stand whether or not I have any skill myself, Ras? In other words, your entire cry for video is baseless on all fronts, other than you crying foul that the videos you put up for critique have garnered criticism that you can't deal with or answer.

    Each expression is different in some way, but there is continuity between them. In other words, they are all following the same basic guidelines, or outline, for the technique.. but you're not. And you got your take on the Ideal Phase Analytical Process quite wrong. But you've been told that by others far higher on the list than myself, and you still didn't listen, so what did we expect, really....

    That's part of it, yep.
     

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