Captured Twigs

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by MJS, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, since this area has been quiet for a while, lets try to get some life into it again. :D

    The traditional version.

    [yt]Y4FV0cNFDr0[/yt]

    And the 'functional' version.

    [yt]6swpRPoq05Q[/yt]


    As always, non Kenpoists are free to chime in as well. :)
     
  2. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    you had to post HIM??

    the base technique does ignore the reality somewhat...but it teaches how to control thier height pretty well.

    the so called realitic version isnt bad per se, but it is limited in understanding of WHY
     
  3. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Trying to breath some life back in this area. :D
     
  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    I'm getting a response ready, just been caught up a bit recently.... give me a couple of days....
     
  5. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Right, said I'd be back....

    What I'd like to do is take them one at a time, and discuss what I see there. Could be fun.

    Okay, so this is basically the "standard" form, or close enough, as I see it, yeah? As with all the other "standard" forms I've seen, it's an idealized form, where the attack is managed and controlled without unexpected interruptions from the get-go. Cool. That's pretty standard for a teaching version, and allows the principles to be taught in a clear, concise, and highly repeatable fashion. So what are those in this case?

    Well, the attack is a body-hold from behind (a bear-hug), and the first thing taught is that you need to lower your weight and create space. From there, it's a low strike to a vulnerable target to weaken the grip, a push to create more space, then a low-high attack to end and escape. Principle-wise, all good.

    When it comes to the technique itself, it relies on immediate action, as does Sword and Hammer, and probably most of the entry-level techniques. Ideally, it seems designed to work by moving as they grab, rather than when the grab is on strongly. That said, as the first action is to ground yourself (lower you weight with the step to the side), that can provide a counter to them moving you around with their hold.

    While not exactly what I'd do, on a few counts (most particularly the foot-stomp), I certainly appreciate the way it's structured, providing consistency throughout the early ranks (focusing on striking responses, stepping with the same foot, using the same method to gain distance at the end, and so on). So, from a teaching, and Kempo perspective, not really anything to get too upset about.

    Ras' version.

    Well, I'd suggest that Ras has missed the timing lesson of the standard form, even though he then basically says that immediate movement is what's needed. And, if I was going to nit-pick, I'd say that his initial step (when doing the standard form) wasn't out far enough, which lead to him being cramped, and having issues in pulling the technique off. His list of what the potential actions are also seem a little out. Some I agree with, others seem less likely to me. However I do agree that an attacker won't just grab and hold you without moving (about the only time that happens is if they're holding you for someone else to attack), but the actions he's showing don't really gel either.

    That said, when we get to some movement (3:20 or so), the first thing Ras advises is that we need to "base out". Agreed, and that's exactly what the standard form teaches as well (with the step out to the left)... however what Ras suggests is to push your hips forward. That would have to be one of the last things I'd suggest as a first action, as all it does is send your weight backwards (towards the attacker), which gives them a stronger grip, removes your own balance, and makes it easier for them to pull you down if they want. His reasoning is that it gives you a headbutt, however from that distance the headbutt isn't really that effective or powerful. The arms going up into a "H" is okay, though.

    What would be better would be to shoot the hips back, which pushes the attackers hips back (which Ras does later), causing separation and distance between yourself and the attacker, while raising your arms (either as an "H", or just lifting them up and out). Interestingly, the most important first action (lowering your hips below the attackers), while seen in the first clip, isn't mentioned by either person. I'd have thought that someone who claims a black belt in Judo would have known about that...

    From there Ras adds in the push back with the hips, including the step out to the left in this case. Next he goes into the strike to the groin. He then says that that provides the opportunity to escape, which it might (if he hasn't been knocked out by landing on the back of his head when he gave the opportunity to the bad guy earlier...), but instead he's going to pull their arm in front ("Which is what I teach my students to do... it's very very effective"... hmm, needs some work, honestly. There's not a lot of control the way he's moving the arm, and there's a lot of freedom for the attacker to move around it all, which is going to minimize any effectiveness that can be attained... but I gotta ask, at that point Ras hasn't actually done anything to the arm, other than lift it over his head and in front of him, so effective for what? He hasn't done anything....)

    At 5:39 he does a different version, instead of lifting the arm up and over, he just steps out to the left with his right leg, holding the attackers arm out, the recommends a range of strikes and kicks. Well, firstly, that's not what you just showed, so I'm still a little puzzled on exactly what was "very very effective" about moving an arm in a way that gave up control over the opponent and had no follow up.... hmm. But back to the kicks and strikes, only the kick to the shin/knee is halfway workable, as the strikes (particularly) were out of range, requiring Ras to overextend himself to try them, robbing them of power, and him of balance and control. From there he takes us to a pull on the arm to take the attacker down and forward, then a pin by pushing down on the shoulder, from where you can scan for other opponents if there were more than one of them (of course, if there were, Ras wouldn't have had time for the rest of his technique). I do have to say that the pin itself is rather bad, the attacker isn't controlled, in fact, he's turning around to the point where he can reach Ras with his other hand, either to strike or grab, so while a pin is possible, this one isn't that good. And if that's an example of the type of control he teaches LEO's? Not something I'd advise unless he wanted to invite the bad guy to go for their (the LEO's) gun.

    While Ras may think it's more "functional", honestly there's a lot of gaps from a technical standpoint, and I'd recommend going back to the standard and seeing what the lessons are.

    Ha, cool. Just for interests sake, here's an example of one of our kata that deals with a similar attack. While this isn't an ideal example, it shows our basic principles. You'll notice a drop in weight, push back with the hips, all in conjunction with a raising of the arms (in order to break the grip). From there, it's a shift out to the side while you strike (to disrupt the attacker, as well as give you the time to get into position), and a throw to finish. This is a kata form, so it's trained simply (as shown) to begin with, with intensity and pressure being added as you improve. But as with everything, there's no point adding that pressure before some base skill with the technique has been attained.

     
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