Style bashing

[Kung Fu Wang]

Did he lose because ninja or because never fights?

There was an ninja instructor who challenged me in the park. IMO, he fought just like any other Karate guy.

 

[drop bear]

Did he lose because ninja or because never fights? If having little to no actual fighting experience is a salient characteristic of the style, is saying so considered bashing?

He lost because he had no idea what sort of level of martial artist he was or what sort of level of martial artist his oponant was.

I come across this a lot. The look at a professional fighter and really not think there can be that big a jump in skills.

And there just is.

It is why guys like tony describe themselves as hobbyists.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think so. It's not a part of the style, IMO. Any individual could, without changing the style (any style), spar/fight with people from other styles. This is where common (even consistent) training methods get confused with the style.

Yeah but trashing all his mates in sparring still wouldn't have helped him.

 

[drop bear]

There was an ninja instructor who challenged me in the park. IMO, he fought just like any other Karate guy.

I would demand at least one smoke bomb.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but trashing all his mates in sparring still wouldn't have helped him.

Getting trashed by one would have.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

He lost because he had no idea what sort of level of martial artist he was or what sort of level of martial artist his oponant was.

I come across this a lot. The look at a professional fighter and really not think there can be that big a jump in skills.

And there just is.

It is why guys like tony describe themselves as hobbyists.

Yeah, those who haven't trained with professional fighters typically don't realize the real gap between a pro and a hobbyist.

I've been training martial arts for 36 years. With all due humility, I don't feel I'm boasting to say that my skills and knowledge are well above the average martial artist. Maybe even a teensy bit above the average martial arts instructor. However, I've also done enough training and sparring with professional fighters to recognize my limits.

My knowledge is adequate for a mid-level pro fighter.
My skills are barely adequate for an entry level pro fighter.
My strength and conditioning are completely inadequate for any kind of pro fighter or even any sort of serious amateur competitor.

Most people also don't realize the huge gulf between the bottom tier of professionals and the top tier. That gap is possibly even greater than the distance between the average hobbyist and an entry-level pro.

 

[Buka]

Yeah, those who haven't trained with professional fighters typically don't realize the real gap between a pro and a hobbyist.

I've been training martial arts for 36 years. With all due humility, I don't feel I'm boasting to say that my skills and knowledge are well above the average martial artist. Maybe even a teensy bit above the average martial arts instructor. However, I've also done enough training and sparring with professional fighters to recognize my limits.

My knowledge is adequate for a mid-level pro fighter.
My skills are barely adequate for an entry level pro fighter.
My strength and conditioning are completely inadequate for any kind of pro fighter or even any sort of serious amateur competitor.

Most people also don't realize the huge gulf between the bottom tier of professionals and the top tier. That gap is possibly even greater than the distance between the average hobbyist and an entry-level pro.

Yeah, that's right, I hit the disagree button on your post. You ain't no hobbyist.

Your conditioning might not be currently pro fight ready, nor should it be, you aren't currently training for a pro fight. Just like any pro fighter who isn't currently training for an upcoming fight isn't "condition ready". [also because you're a seriously old F.]

If we were to hook up I'd be hounding you to teach me everything and anything you know how, about any and every damn thing in the Martial Arts.
I don't do that with "hobbyists". Nice try, humble old guy.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah, that's right, I hit the disagree button on your post. You ain't no hobbyist.

Your conditioning might not be currently pro fight ready, nor should it be, you aren't currently training for a pro fight. Just like any pro fighter who isn't currently training for an upcoming fight isn't "condition ready". [also because you're a seriously old F.]

If we were to hook up I'd be hounding you to teach me everything and anything you know how, about any and every damn thing in the Martial Arts.
I don't do that with "hobbyists". Nice try, humble old guy.

Well, I did say that my knowledge was at the level of a mid-level professional. My actual skills are a little bit lower than that.

Anyway, hobbyists can be very good at things. Not usually as good as the people who do it full time for a living, but still pretty darn good if they spend enough decades working on their hobby.

Also, if we can ever get to the same geographic area, I'm going to be busy picking your brain for all the tidbits I can learn.

 

[Steve]

I know more than someone who knows nothing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know more than someone who knows nothing.

I sometimes make that claim. The evidence is kinda sketchy, though.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, those who haven't trained with professional fighters typically don't realize the real gap between a pro and a hobbyist.

I've been training martial arts for 36 years. With all due humility, I don't feel I'm boasting to say that my skills and knowledge are well above the average martial artist. Maybe even a teensy bit above the average martial arts instructor. However, I've also done enough training and sparring with professional fighters to recognize my limits.

My knowledge is adequate for a mid-level pro fighter.
My skills are barely adequate for an entry level pro fighter.
My strength and conditioning are completely inadequate for any kind of pro fighter or even any sort of serious amateur competitor.

Most people also don't realize the huge gulf between the bottom tier of professionals and the top tier. That gap is possibly even greater than the distance between the average hobbyist and an entry-level pro.

Someone once explained where the word amature came from.

From French amateur, from Latin amātōr (“lover”), from amāre (“to love”).

 

[FighterTwister]

People overlook so many things here a key word - "Attributes"

We all have different body types what works for someone might not work so well for another.

Allot of good points above though really makes you think they all have merit and value.

Martial arts for me has been a journey of learning and studying different methods of movement and what works for my body type.

I embrace all teachings and take what works for me into tools where I dip into when needed.

In simple MMA

 

[Balrog]

Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.

So.........who or what appointed you the karate kop? How do you determine whether someone is being taught BS? Are you an expert in that style? If you're not, you really have no basis whatsoever for commenting on that style, IMNSHO.

 

[Martial D]

So.........who or what appointed you the karate kop? How do you determine whether someone is being taught BS? Are you an expert in that style? If you're not, you really have no basis whatsoever for commenting on that style, IMNSHO.

I don't care about style, only what works. Style is only a label.

There's good Karate, and useless karate. It's about what and how people are taught, and more importantly what they are led to believe they are buying with their monthly fee. If you are being led to believe by an instructor that you are being prepared for a combat or self defense situation, yet your training involves 0 actual combat, it's a scam.

As much as people here seem to think this sort of thing is anomolous to the reality, my experience tells me otherwise.

 

[drop bear]

So.........who or what appointed you the karate kop? How do you determine whether someone is being taught BS? Are you an expert in that style? If you're not, you really have no basis whatsoever for commenting on that style, IMNSHO.

That also means the only people who could judge the effectiveness of a style also have a vested intrest in that style.

Self regulating is kind of the issue here.

 

[DaveB]

I don't care about style, only what works. Style is only a label.

There's good Karate, and useless karate. It's about what and how people are taught, and more importantly what they are led to believe they are buying with their monthly fee. If you are being led to believe by an instructor that you are being prepared for a combat or self defense situation, yet your training involves 0 actual combat, it's a scam.

As much as people here seem to think this sort of thing is anomolous to the reality, my experience tells me otherwise.

Dude, you keep on and on and on about this one criteria, actual combat in the school.

Who are these armies of deluded people that don't think fighting practice is useful???
When and where are you encountering them? Because I'm yet to encounter this view in MT.

And what makes you think that the class teaching is the be all and end all of the style??

For example, for maybe a year we didn't free spar in my karate class, not because my sensei was against it, but because we just ran out of time from the other drills he wanted us to learn.

So my friends and I went to each other's homes or the nearby park after class and beat each other up. But there were a number of older students who held their own when attacked on the street who only fought in class.

So what do you deduce about Shotokan karate from that?

 

[DaveB]

That also means the only people who could judge the effectiveness of a style also have a vested intrest in that style.

Self regulating is kind of the issue here.

Not really.

The issue isn't that only those invested can judge, rather that the people who want to judge are happy to do so from a position of ignorance.

If you really want to be judge arbiter of the martial arts then go out and spend some time training with various schools in the style you want to "bash".

Ask questions, learn different approaches, raise your concerns with someone in a position to address them. Try and demo what you feel is wrong. If you shaft every convoluted technique and run circles around the seniors, people would be more inclined to listen.

This may sound like a lot but it is really just basic research. The fact that you want folks to take your word for it online without an honest attempt to learn what is going on I think puts more people off you and thus your approach than any style bias could.

 

[Steve]

Not really.

The issue isn't that only those invested can judge, rather that the people who want to judge are happy to do so from a position of ignorance.

If you really want to be judge arbiter of the martial arts then go out and spend some time training with various schools in the style you want to "bash".

Ask questions, learn different approaches, raise your concerns with someone in a position to address them. Try and demo what you feel is wrong. If you shaft every convoluted technique and run circles around the seniors, people would be more inclined to listen.

This may sound like a lot but it is really just basic research. The fact that you want folks to take your word for it online without an honest attempt to learn what is going on I think puts more people off you and thus your approach than any style bias could.

If you aren't skeptical,of a self defense teacher who has no personal or professional experience outside of training in self defense, you're either not concerned about self defense (ie training for some other reason) or you're being misled.

You don't have to be an expert in that style to see the problem any more than you need to be a doctor to understand that the guy teaching people how to perform heart surgery should have logged some hours in the ER performing heart surgery. No amount of training will prepare a person so well as a cardio thoracic surgeon that it can in any way replace actual experience such that he can competently train others.

This continues to be such obvious common sense, I don't understand how it is so often ignored when it comes to martial arts. It is accepted as a given in literally every other tphysical human activity.

 

[drop bear]

If you aren't skeptical,of a self defense teacher who has no personal or professional experience outside of training in self defense, you're either not concerned about self defense (ie training for some other reason) or you're being misled.

You don't have to be an expert in that style to see the problem any more than you need to be a doctor to understand that the guy teaching people how to perform heart surgery should have logged some hours in the ER performing heart surgery. No amount of training will prepare a person so well as a cardio thoracic surgeon that it can in any way replace actual experience such that he can competently train others.

This continues to be such obvious common sense, I don't understand how it is so often ignored when it comes to martial arts. It is accepted as a given in literally every other tphysical human activity.

It is belief. The whole system works more as a religion than a science. That is why all these basic discussion on dogma keep popping up.

In this case. "Who are you to question god?"

But we also get this idea that martial arts dont need to provide proof the sceptics do.

Actually. Here we go. Lets just look at a link of dogmatic arguments and see how many traps we are falling in to.

Dogmatic Close Quarter Battle (CQB)

 

[drop bear]

Not really.

The issue isn't that only those invested can judge, rather that the people who want to judge are happy to do so from a position of ignorance.

If you really want to be judge arbiter of the martial arts then go out and spend some time training with various schools in the style you want to "bash".

Ask questions, learn different approaches, raise your concerns with someone in a position to address them. Try and demo what you feel is wrong. If you shaft every convoluted technique and run circles around the seniors, people would be more inclined to listen.

This may sound like a lot but it is really just basic research. The fact that you want folks to take your word for it online without an honest attempt to learn what is going on I think puts more people off you and thus your approach than any style bias could.

I
So the kung fu full system trope. You know the one that makes Bruce Lees opinion of chun invalid.

I mean of course it is B.S. But you are going to fight these to the death.

But you know what contradicts this argument and what makes this twisted tangle of made up logic so funny.

It is not the style it is the individual. Didn't you bang on about all styles having a comon meta element. That there are these meta concept that make all styles work and the individual and the training make the martial artist.

But if it is not the style. Why do I need to know the style to judge?

I mean I'm an individual. You can't fool me.