Struggling to keep things neutral....

[jobo]

I see what you're saying, absolutely. The virus isn't the only issue. I am sorry about your mother and hope she's okay. Of course the many other issues that have cropped up are very real. Whilst I'm doing totally fine in isolation and my own personality is okay with that, many people are not coping well with it. We're all different.

My grandparents had my parents visiting them a fair bit, and they still stepped out. I just didn't want them to die because they saw me. It wasn't necessary IMO, the phone call to me would have been enough.

yes, but perhaps they needed to see you badly, and your guilt over the potential for killing them, is badly miss placed

 

[_Simon_]

yes, but perhaps they needed to see you badly, and your guilt over the potential for killing them, is badly miss placed

Perhaps a lot of things.

 

[jobo]

Perhaps a lot of things.

there not really any perhaps about, we all take ''calculated '' risks everyday, because with out those risks life is unlivable, that capacity we have as adults to make our own value judgements on prioritises has been take off us, either by law or by a programme of guilt tripping

 

[_Simon_]

there not really any perhaps about, we all take ''calculated '' risks everyday, because with out those risks life is unlivable, that capacity we have as adults to make our own value judgements on prioritises has been take off us, either by law or by a programme of guilt tripping

You were the one who said perhaps..

Yep for sure, there are risks we all take. We all do make value judgements. Appreciate your view on mine, but I'm very satisfied with mine.

To me the capacity to take risks hasn't been taken away, we can still take risks. But there are now consequences put in place.

 

[jobo]

You were the one who said perhaps..

Yep for sure, there are risks we all take. We all do make value judgements. Appreciate your view on mine, but I'm very satisfied with mine.

To me the capacity to take risks hasn't been taken away, we can still take risks. But there are now consequences put in place.

i said perhaps as i dont know your grandparents, but i do know they consented to run the risk to see you, something that needs to be respected in any consideration of events

forbidding people to take risks, when the action forbidden is social interaction, a requirement of life, is a significant withdrawal of freedom, discouraging them from taking risks, when the actual risk is very very low is mind control

the most dangerous thing i do in a week, is to cross a railway line on an unmarked/uncontrolled crossing, that crossing remains open, but i cant visit my sister

 

[Headhunter]

I’m struggling to see any problems?


1) your the one keeping silent talk about other stuff not just politics...talk about the training, what’s on tv anything

2) it’s not part of what you do so why worry about it

3) that’s the guys choice that he’s entitled to make

from what I’ve read there doesn’t feel like any major problems

 

[Danny T]

Sorry you are going through this Geezer.

My experience is quite different.
We are training and have been. We don't do any grappling/wrestling as yet but have continued throughout but for about two weeks when this all first began.
I've continue with privates and semi-privates. Testing body temps, sanitizing hands, arms, and equipment far more diligently. Began training full classes again after about 3 weeks. Have a few who still don't train but most have come back but for the wrestlers.
I work hard to keep politics out of the training area. I understand many are scared and their concerns need to be addressed. Others aren't as concerned. Welcome to life. There is a risk in everything we do. I accept that. Many others do as well. Such opinions vary, again welcome to life.

 

[JowGaWolf]

1. My instructor (out of state) and my local training partner are both so edgy about the current situation, that I have to walk on eggs whenever I'm working with them. As much as I steer clear of touchy subjects, my silence itself often indicts me as a person of a different perspective. And apparently that is a problem for them. ....Which then becomes a problem for my training!

Silence isn't always a good thing. More harm has been done in this world by people remaining silent. Usually what happens is that people will be silent until things pile up and overflows. By that time, things turn ugly. It's not what you say but how you say it. People will match your words with your actions and that helps them to better absorb or reject what you say in a positive manner vs a personal and resentful one. Sometimes your perspective is sought at because they see you in a position of leadership or in a position that what you say matters. It's a big responsibility to take on, but I rarely ask someone I care little for about what they think.

He's frustrated that I am "so uptight" about this whole "charade" and pushing these excessive safety measures. So he's done for now, but probably will continue doing jits and boxing with his other trainer who's less alarmist.

I wouldn't even worry about this. It's really simple. If you take precautions to ensure safety then the worst thing that happens if you are wrong is that everyone is safe. However, if you don't take precautions to ensure safety then the worst thing that can happen is that someone gets sick, spreads, it and dies. Or spreads it and is physically damaged to the point where they are no longer able to function normally.
It's sort of like do you heal first, or push through only to regret that you did 10 years later when you realize the damage that you cause by pushing through. For me personally, I wouldn't want to hang around a person who thinks that COVID-19 is a "charade". Anyone who thinks it's a "charade" is probably not thinking about other people's safety.

So what with the recent Covid shut down, with cases still rising locally, and people's uncompromising attitudes, I'm finding really hard to keep our group going at all

speaking from experience. those who want to learn from you will still follow and will still want to learn from you. Even if you were to teach only through video, they would still show up. I've been learning kung fu from a Sifu that I wish I could train with in person. But since I can't, I'm happy enough to learn from his online classes. I think people are like this in general except for people who only see Martial Arts as a fitness, or a class.

Someone once told me that Traditional Martial Arts is a life style, a family. I still believe this even though I got screwed over. But I always keep in mind that, not everyone screwed me over. It was just one person, who didn't believe in martial arts the way that I do.

It's better to be safe and to have someone upset at you for being safe than it is to be wreckless and then be blamed or feel responsible for harm that may come as a result.

 

[skribs]

If you take precautions to ensure safety then the worst thing that happens if you are wrong is that everyone is safe.

Not necessarily. Depending on what those precautions are, there could be other effects.

I know the precautions we will have to take at my school will shorten classes by about 15 minutes each so we can sanitize. That means everyone is getting less class for their money. That means some may quit so they don't have to deal with all of this, which means less money for the school. It's a lose-lose situation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

About your title for this thread... Struggling to keep things neutral

Nothing in this life is ever neutral things are constantly shifting. Instead of trying to keep things neutral focus more on keeping a balance. It's much easier.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not necessarily. Depending on what those precautions are, there could be other effects.

I know the precautions we will have to take at my school will shorten classes by about 15 minutes each so we can sanitize. That means everyone is getting less class for their money. That means some may quit so they don't have to deal with all of this, which means less money for the school. It's a lose-lose situation.

My statement is directed towards someone thinking that COVID-19 is a "charade".. So if it's in their mindset that COVID-19 "is fake" and that in there mind it's proven to be fake then the worst thing that happens is that everyone is safe. But if that person is wrong about COVID-19 being "fake" then there can be a high price to pay just to have things his way. So if I were having a conversation with someone like that then. I would still run to the same choice. "Take Precautions".

Getting less for their money is a perception. What I mean by this is that. Yes they may be getting less hands on, but you can strike a balance by maybe doing things like having online meetings to share more information about application of techniques, video challenges, or free form "Insert name of Martial Arts." When you are short in one area increase more in another so that there isn't "less class for their money" I would be willing to show anyone how this works if there's any questions on how to do this.

 

[skribs]

Getting less for their money is a perception. What I mean by this is that. Yes they may be getting less hands on, but you can strike a balance by maybe doing things like having online meetings to share more information about application of techniques, video challenges, or free form "Insert name of Martial Arts." When you are short in one area increase more in another so that there isn't "less class for their money" I would be willing to show anyone how this works if there's any questions on how to do this.

In order to fit all of our students in, we have classes every day. The time where we could do that extra online class is when someone else is doing in person class. The time in between, we're cleaning. The other alternative is we give people the same class for their money, but extend our hours. Then we're getting less for our time. Especially since people will probably burn out and leave (assuming they even come back in the first place, since a lot of them have been gone for three months).

Your argument basically boils down to the very self-centered political argument I see all the time. It fails to recognize the pros and cons of each position. It assumes you have all the pros and I have all the cons. You say there's only good things that can happen with your plan. That tells me you don't understand much about the situation.

 

[skribs]

My statement is directed towards someone thinking that COVID-19 is a "charade".. So if it's in their mindset that COVID-19 "is fake" and that in there mind it's proven to be fake then the worst thing that happens is that everyone is safe. But if that person is wrong about COVID-19 being "fake" then there can be a high price to pay just to have things his way. So if I were having a conversation with someone like that then. I would still run to the same choice. "Take Precautions".

Let me put it another way. What if I were to say:

All of this extra caution is hurting businesses, especially small business (but some larger ones as well). This is wreaking havoc on our economy. But if I'm wrong, about COVID-19 being fake, at least the businesses will survive.

Notice how I completely disregarded your opinion? Notice how I completely disregarded the cons with my opinion and the pros with yours? This is how teenagers argue. I assumed you were more mature than that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let me put it another way. What if I were to say:

All of this extra caution is hurting businesses, especially small business (but some larger ones as well). This is wreaking havoc on our economy. But if I'm wrong, about COVID-19 being fake, at least the businesses will survive.

Notice how I completely disregarded your opinion? Notice how I completely disregarded the cons with my opinion and the pros with yours? This is how teenagers argue. I assumed you were more mature than that.

This precaution probably killed my consulting/training company. But that's okay, because I and my clients are alive and well. It was the right decision. Higher death rates are bad for the economy, too. This was always going to be an economic train wreck, especially for small brick-and-mortar or in-person based businesses (like MA schools and my consultancy).

 

[skribs]

This precaution probably killed my consulting/training company. But that's okay, because I and my clients are alive and well. It was the right decision. Higher death rates are bad for the economy, too. This was always going to be an economic train wreck, especially for small brick-and-mortar or in-person based businesses (like MA schools and my consultancy).

By this logic, it was the right precaution to round up the Japanese into internment camps in WW2. All our families were alice and well. So it was a good precaution to take.

There was a time in various parts of the world where people were sacrificed to the gods. Everyone else lived and had food to eat, so it was a good precaution to take.

The bad thing you feared didn't happen, therefore the cost doesn't matter to you. But what if it wouldn't have happened anyway?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By this logic, it was the right precaution to round up the Japanese into internment camps in WW2. All our families were alice and well. So it was a good precaution to take.

There was a time in various parts of the world where people were sacrificed to the gods. Everyone else lived and had food to eat, so it was a good precaution to take.

The bad thing you feared didn't happen, therefore the cost doesn't matter to you. But what if it wouldn't have happened anyway?

That's an example of false equivalency. That's just bad debating.

 

[Flying Crane]

By this logic, it was the right precaution to round up the Japanese into internment camps in WW2. All our families were alice and well. So it was a good precaution to take.

There was a time in various parts of the world where people were sacrificed to the gods. Everyone else lived and had food to eat, so it was a good precaution to take.

The bad thing you feared didn't happen, therefore the cost doesn't matter to you. But what if it wouldn't have happened anyway?

No, what you are saying here is senseless and has no bearing whatsoever to what Jerry said.

Here is the truth: Covid-19 is a real disease. So far we have well over 2 million confirmed cases in the US. In addition, we have over 115,000 confirmed deaths from Covid-19. Neither of these numbers are in dispute. However, due to a lack of systematic testing and early unknowns, both of these numbers are likely to be less than the true numbers.

So, people are getting sick and some of them are dying. Granted it is a small percentage, but the real numbers are adding up quickly.

We are currently, right now, seeing significant spikes in these numbers in several parts of the country. And it isn’t just that case numbers are increasing due to more testing. We are actually seeing hospital cases going up as well, and in some areas the hospitals are getting concerned that they will not be able to handle the caseload if the trends continue.

The timing of the current spike coincides perfectly with what was anticipated from the economic reopening, if people failed to act responsibly and disregarded social distancing and wearing masks. Well, that is exactly what people did. Many people out there failed to act responsibly and disregarded social distancing and stopped wearing masks. They just decided they were bored with it all and couldn’t be bothered anymore. So here we are.

And now we have had three weeks of social unrest (absolutely justifiable and something I am completely in support of) but the result is that huge huge huge crowds of people were and are still being brought together into close proximity, many of whom are not wearing masks, many of whom are shouting and chanting and singing and running and breathing hard and coughing and spitting and spluttering from tear gas, and we can expect to see the spike grow even bigger and faster in the near future.

We have a choice, and the economy will continue to suffer either way. We can limit opening and take precautions to control the spread of the virus and do what we can to limit the number of deaths, or we can just reopen and let the virus spread and let lots of people die, which will destroy the economy also.

Literally the only source of information that is telling us that Covid-19 is under control and everything is awesome, is Donald trump. Nobody who actually knows anything at all about this is giving a similar message.

This is not difficult to understand. You take precautions to avoid the catastrophe. When the catastrophe doesn’t happen, it is BECAUSE of the precautions. You don’t conclude that since the catastrophe didn’t happen, the precautions were a waste. If someone is shooting at you and you duck for cover and don’t get hit, you don’t conclude that ducking for cover was a mistake. Covid-19 is still shooting at us. We need to keep ducking for cover. We are not in the clear yet, and won’t be for a while even if we die everything right, which of course we won’t do.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the WWII Internment camps in the US for American citizens of Japanese ancestry.

 

[skribs]

You all are fine with the measures because it fits your beliefs that this disease is much more dangerous than the flu. I don't believe that.

You are trying to tell me that I should blindly follow you, because you're so focused on the fear of this disease, that you're not paying attention to any of the other consequences of quarantine.

You're ignoring plenty of other sources of information. I've linked and referenced them before and been laughed at. Then you guys are saying there's no data to support my decision.

This is how drop bear argues. I expected better of you. Especially Gerry.

 

[Flying Crane]

@Skribbs, what is it that you find to disagree with? The disease? The number of cases? The number of deaths? The current spike in cases and hospitalizations? Donald trumps overly optimistic message on the state of Covid? The point about the WWII Internment camps?

Care to share?

 

[skribs]

@Skribbs, what is it that you find to disagree with? The disease? The number of cases? The number of deaths? The current spike in cases and hospitalizations? Donald trumps overly optimistic message on the state of Covid? The point about the WWII Internment camps?

Care to share?

I think far more people have had the disease than we know. This is from the antibody testings and from times when they test everyone and find the majority of those with the disease are asymptotic.

I think the disease was here before it was confirmed to have been, and it only made headlines when it swept through nursing homes. I think a lot of people have had it already and don't even know it.

I think the fears of the disease have waned a lot in response to the BLM protests. My governor won't let churches reopen because safety trumps the first amendment, but he's fine with the protests because we can't interfere with their first amendment rights.

My cousin in another state has documentation from his state that barbecues are limited to gatherings of 5, but protests to gatherings of 100.

The more data that comes out, the less these measures make sense. Some states have reopened without spikes in hospitalization. There's more and more data of people having mild or asymptotic cases of the disease, since we've expanded tests beyond those that require hospitalization.

More and more, what is and isn't allowed is based on political opinions. In Europe, brothels are opening before martial arts schools. Why? Is that a safe activity with a virus? Why are the first amendment rights of protestors more important than the first amendment rights of churches?

It's political. It's all political. If you think it isn't, you've fallen prey.