Struggling to keep things neutral....

Status
Not open for further replies.

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
I think far more people have had the disease than we know. This is from the antibody testings and from times when they test everyone and find the majority of those with the disease are asymptotic.

I think the disease was here before it was confirmed to have been, and it only made headlines when it swept through nursing homes. I think a lot of people have had it already and don't even know it.

I think the fears of the disease have waned a lot in response to the BLM protests. My governor won't let churches reopen because safety trumps the first amendment, but he's fine with the protests because we can't interfere with their first amendment rights.

My cousin in another state has documentation from his state that barbecues are limited to gatherings of 5, but protests to gatherings of 100.

The more data that comes out, the less these measures make sense. Some states have reopened without spikes in hospitalization. There's more and more data of people having mild or asymptotic cases of the disease, since we've expanded tests beyond those that require hospitalization.

More and more, what is and isn't allowed is based on political opinions. In Europe, brothels are opening before martial arts schools. Why? Is that a safe activity with a virus? Why are the first amendment rights of protestors more important than the first amendment rights of churches?

It's political. It's all political. If you think it isn't, you've fallen prey.
the whole stratergy has been around people not wanting to get blamed rather than any practcle consideration of the risks,, points ive made several times before to a hostile reception


protests are ok, because they cant actually stop them any more than they can stop the sex trade. So make them legal so that they dont loose face with people just ignoring them


the more you abide by the stupid rules the longer those rules will be in place and the dafter they will get
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,212
Reaction score
6,308
Location
New York
By this logic, it was the right precaution to round up the Japanese into internment camps in WW2. All our families were alice and well. So it was a good precaution to take.

There was a time in various parts of the world where people were sacrificed to the gods. Everyone else lived and had food to eat, so it was a good precaution to take.

The bad thing you feared didn't happen, therefore the cost doesn't matter to you. But what if it wouldn't have happened anyway?
Ignoring whether or not covid is dangerous, are you really comparing having businesses close for a couple months (in most places without rent being charged) to the japanese internment camps?
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
I think far more people have had the disease than we know. This is from the antibody testings and from times when they test everyone and find the majority of those with the disease are asymptotic.

This is an assumption that is widely accepted by the medical community and epidemiology experts. I also expressed as much in my previous post. It is also believed that the actual death rate is likely higher than that reported, due to the early unknowns in when the virus may have arrived in North America, and early unrecognized cases.

I think the disease was here before it was confirmed to have been, and it only made headlines when it swept through nursing homes. I think a lot of people have had it already and don't even know it.

Again, yes it was likely here before we realized it. See my comment above. However, it was definitely being watched and was making headlines before it hit the nursing homes. There was a cruise ship full of cases that were let out here in California, if memory serves. We were aware of the virus and it was getting notice in the news before we knew of any cases in the US. When the nursing homes were hit and started to experience multiple deaths in a single facility, that made stronger headlines because the potential lethality of the virus suddenly hit home in a very real way.

I think the fears of the disease have waned a lot in response to the BLM protests. My governor won't let churches reopen because safety trumps the first amendment, but he's fine with the protests because we can't interfere with their first amendment rights.

People were already getting bored with the virus and were easing back on responsible behavior (social distancing and mask wearing) before the BLM protests. I was seeing it all over in my area, every time I went to a store to get some groceries. States were beginning to open up with safe-practices guidelines, which lots of people generally ignored. However, I don’t believe a single state (possible exception: New York) met the CDC recommendations of 14 days of declining cases before beginning to open. Yet they decided to open anyways. This happened on the heels of a number of protests by people who were demanding that the economy reopen, some of these protests included groups of men with rifles showing up at their State Capitol buildings. Why that didn’t trigger some arrests is a mystery to me.

The BLM protests were triggered by an atrocity. We don’t get to schedule these things for when it is more convenient. They happen when they happen. And it caused outrage and action, that was long overdue. This isn’t political. It is standing up for what is right and demanding that these atrocities must end.

We didn’t get to reschedule and postpone WWI until the flu pandemic was over. They happened together and each made the other worse. But the people at home took what steps they could to limit the spread at home. Maybe that’s the difference: we haven’t yet had 50 million people worldwide die from Covid-19, like died from the flu. Maybe we need 675 thousand American Covid deaths, as we had in the flu pandemic, before Americans will start taking this seriously. But that is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

My cousin in another state has documentation from his state that barbecues are limited to gatherings of 5, but protests to gatherings of 100.

The more data that comes out, the less these measures make sense. Some states have reopened without spikes in hospitalization. There's more and more data of people having mild or asymptotic cases of the disease, since we've expanded tests beyond those that require hospitalization.
]

Some areas show spikes sooner than others. We live in a hugely mobile society where people from regions with higher known cases can travel to areas with lower known rates and can easily spread the disease. Trump is planning a huge rally in Tulsa, with no distancing, a packed stadium, and no mask wearing. Attendees are required to sign a waiver that if they get sick after attending, they will hold harmless. And Tulsa is one area where cases are spiking. The rally will bring in huge numbers of people from all over. How does this make any sense?

More and more, what is and isn't allowed is based on political opinions. In Europe, brothels are opening before martial arts schools. Why? Is that a safe activity with a virus? Why are the first amendment rights of protestors more important than the first amendment rights of churches?

If that is happening, I agree, it makes no sense. Hup, some absolutely stupid decisions are being made about opening the economy. Tattoo parlors, massage salons? That makes no sense to me either.

I’ve already commented above about the protests. But regarding churches, I cannot understand the confusion. Churches bring large groups together into close proximity, usually indoors. Close proximity can undermine the benefits of wearing masks. Multiple precautions are more effective than just one. People often sing or chant in religious services, which can spread the virus more widely than calm speech. Large religious congregations would be a likely source of spreading the disease. This is obvious.

It's political. It's all political. If you think it isn't, you've fallen prey.

I see a lot of stupid decisions being made. Some of it may be political. But that does not undermine the reality of this disease, nor the need to continue with diligent safety practices, even (especially) if the government isn’t willing to enforce it. Because we all benefit together or suffer together depending on how we behave.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
Ignoring whether or not covid is dangerous, are you really comparing having businesses close for a couple months (in most places without rent being charged) to the japanese internment camps?
i think he is comparing the complete over reaction to very littlr danger, just to to be safe

the shut down has enourmass harm to huge chunks of the population, just like all the japanese americans lost their busnesses, lively hoods and liberty to free movement not at all the same but at least comparable
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,446
Reaction score
2,517
It's widely accepted by the doctors you listen to. I know several doctors through my dojang and my job at a major hospital. Pretty much every one I talk to says this is overblown and political.

I'm not asking you to agree with my opinion. I'm asking that you respect it, and that you don't ignore all of the costs with the safety measures.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
It's widely accepted by the doctors you listen to. I know several doctors through my dojang and my job at a major hospital. Pretty much every one I talk to says this is overblown and political.

I'm not asking you to agree with my opinion. I'm asking that you respect it, and that you don't ignore all of the costs with the safety measures.
Do you not remember what happened in NYC? My memory is that the hospitals were swamped, overrun with cases and they were stacking corpses in freezer trucks because they couldn’t have funerals fast enough. Medical professionals were working to exhaustion and they couldn’t get the supplies they needed to safely treat patients. So healthcare workers were getting sick and dying along with those patients. Do you not remember this? Do you think this didn’t happen, that it was a lie, just a Netflix miniseries broadcast for our entertainment? That wasn’t a movie; it was real. Do you think this couldn’t happen where you live, or anywhere else? I would say you need to take the blinders off and find some better sources for your information. Don’t ignore the cost in human lives, while in pursuit of a dollar. If you ignore the lives, you won’t make the dollar anyways.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
Do you not remember what happened in NYC? My memory is that the hospitals were swamped, overrun with cases and they were stacking corpses in freezer trucks because they couldn’t have funerals fast enough. Medical professionals were working to exhaustion and they couldn’t get the supplies they needed to safely treat patients. So healthcare workers were getting sick and dying along with those patients. Do you not remember this? Do you think this didn’t happen, that it was a lie, just a Netflix miniseries broadcast for our entertainment? That wasn’t a movie; it was real. Do you think this couldn’t happen where you live, or anywhere else? I would say you need to take the blinders off and find some better sources for your information. Don’t ignore the cost in human lives, while in pursuit of a dollar. If you ignore the lives, you won’t make the dollar anyways.
and did the resrictions in anyway lessen that ?
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,446
Reaction score
2,517
Do you not remember what happened in NYC? My memory is that the hospitals were swamped, overrun with cases and they were stacking corpses in freezer trucks because they couldn’t have funerals fast enough. Medical professionals were working to exhaustion and they couldn’t get the supplies they needed to safely treat patients. So healthcare workers were getting sick and dying along with those patients. Do you not remember this? Do you think this didn’t happen, that it was a lie, just a Netflix miniseries broadcast for our entertainment? That wasn’t a movie; it was real. Do you think this couldn’t happen where you live, or anywhere else? I would say you need to take the blinders off and find some better sources for your information. Don’t ignore the cost in human lives, while in pursuit of a dollar. If you ignore the lives, you won’t make the dollar anyways.

I'm not ignoring lives. I think NYC was an outlier. It may even be a different strain of the virus.

At some point, you have to accept risk. There was always the risk of contracting communicable diseases in martial arts.

You're trying to make this a health issue. I'm making it a human rights issue. We both have legitimate concerns.

And yes, the value of the dollar is important if the school folds because we can't afford to keep the doors open. The value of the dollar is important for people who want to feed their families. Who want to pay for healthcare for a number of other issues than just COVID-19.

If the virus isn't as bad, we're risking economic collapse if we keep this up. How long will it go on? It was originally supposed to be 2 weeks. We've been closed for 3 months. Lots of businesses have declared bankruptcy during this time, such as 24 hour fitness and the XFL.

I'm not saying there isn't a health concern. But to dismiss every other concern entirely out of fear makes you a sheep.

If the virus turns out to be not that bad, but the economy collapses, will you be happy because "at least we didn't die"?

And I do think the Japanese internment camps is an apt analogy. Except its not just the Japanese. It's everyone. And more lately, it's those services that are more likely to be used by conservatives.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
I'm not ignoring lives. I think NYC was an outlier. It may even be a different strain of the virus.

Based on what information?

At some point, you have to accept risk. There was always the risk of contracting communicable diseases in martial arts.

Life always has risks and not all of them can be planned for. Covid is a known risk, with a known lethal potential. It is absolutely real. It is something that can be planned for to a certain extent: social distancing and wear a mask and don’t engage in activities that have a strong likelihood of violating these two very simple and easy actions. And yes, that will take a toll on the economy, because our economy and our society are structured in a way to bring us together frequently. While that has been largely a positive, right now it is absolutely a liability. That sucks, but it is the truth. But seriously, we have been dealing with this for about four months. This is a very short period of time. And yet people are fed up, bored, ready to move on. We are pathetic, as a nation, that we can’t hold the course for such a brief period, to do the right thing, to actually get control of this pandemic before we start relaxing our vigilance.

You're trying to make this a health issue. I'm making it a human rights issue. We both have legitimate concerns.

Um, 2 million known cases, 115000 deaths...yup, sounds like a health issue. That takes priority over economics. People dying is first, over your right to make a dollar.

And yes, the value of the dollar is important if the school folds because we can't afford to keep the doors open. The value of the dollar is important for people who want to feed their families. Who want to pay for healthcare for a number of other issues than just COVID-19.

Unless the economy collapses further due to the uncontrolled spread of the illness and increasing deaths.

If the virus isn't as bad, we're risking economic collapse if we keep this up. How long will it go on? It was originally supposed to be 2 weeks. We've been closed for 3 months. Lots of businesses have declared bankruptcy during this time, such as 24 hour fitness and the XFL.

Two weeks? When was that part of the timeline? Who thinks they can control how long this would take, when the whole issue was mismanaged from the very beginning? I remember one prominent politician statin over and over that the US only had something like 13 cases, when we already knew it was around 60. And that they would just go to zero...this is all on video, you can find these things being said by that politician. And here we are with over 2 million cases and over 115000 deaths. This is what happened, because of political incompetence.

Two weeks? Whose lies are you believing?

I'm not saying there isn't a health concern. But to dismiss every other concern entirely out of fear makes you a sheep.

If the virus turns out to be not that bad, but the economy collapses, will you be happy because "at least we didn't die"?

And I do think the Japanese internment camps is an apt analogy. Except its not just the Japanese. It's everyone. And more lately, it's those services that are more likely to be used by conservatives.
Sheep, my ***. What a ridiculous statement.
And what services used by conservatives are you referring to?
 
Last edited:

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,212
Reaction score
6,308
Location
New York
Two weeks? When was that part of the timeline? Who thinks they can control how long this would take, when the whole issue was mismanaged from the very beginning? I remember one prominent politician statin over and over that the US only had something like 13 cases, when we already knew it was around 60. And that they would just go to zero...this is all on idle, you can find these things being said by that politician. And here we are with over 2 million cases and overnight 115000 deaths. This is what happened, because of political incompetence.

Two weeks? Whose lies are you believing?
When the lockdown stuff initially started, Trump had stated he wanted it done by Easter. I just checked the dates, he said that on March 24th, and Easter was April 12th, so about 2.5 weeks. I'm guessing that's where that assumption came from...but at the time most health professionals didn't think that was realistic.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,446
Reaction score
2,517
@Flying Crane
Let me put it this way. I respect your opinion.
But right now, I don't respect you, because of the way you arrived at your opinion. You only listen to the people who give you the data you want. That's why you're a sheep.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,446
Reaction score
2,517
When the lockdown stuff initially started, Trump had stated he wanted it done by Easter. I just checked the dates, he said that on March 24th, and Easter was April 12th, so about 2.5 weeks. I'm guessing that's where that assumption came from...but at the time most health professionals didn't think that was realistic.
My governor said the lockdowns would be for 2 weeks before they kept getting extended.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,976
Reaction score
10,540
Location
Hendersonville, NC
You all are fine with the measures because it fits your beliefs that this disease is much more dangerous than the flu. I don't believe that.

You are trying to tell me that I should blindly follow you, because you're so focused on the fear of this disease, that you're not paying attention to any of the other consequences of quarantine.

You're ignoring plenty of other sources of information. I've linked and referenced them before and been laughed at. Then you guys are saying there's no data to support my decision.

This is how drop bear argues. I expected better of you. Especially Gerry.
Nobody has asked you to follow beliefs. We have suggested you follow scientific facts. You are the only one here being dismissive.

Nobody in the general population has been imprisoned, which is why your comparison to interment camps is off-base. Your insults and personal attacks do nothing to support your position.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
When the lockdown stuff initially started, Trump had stated he wanted it done by Easter. I just checked the dates, he said that on March 24th, and Easter was April 12th, so about 2.5 weeks. I'm guessing that's where that assumption came from...but at the time most health professionals didn't think that was realistic.
Oh I remember that. That was an artificial timeline that he wanted to impose, which was immediately apparent that it was ridiculous.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,976
Reaction score
10,540
Location
Hendersonville, NC
My governor said the lockdowns would be for 2 weeks before they kept getting extended.
The initial lockdowns were for 2 weeks, because that’s how long it would take to see how fast the disease was spreading (14 days appeared to be the maximum incubation period). As the disease continued to demonstrate its ability to spread and cause serious illness (long-term injury and death), the lockdowns were extended to meet that threat.

I understand your frustration. I really do. This was really bad timing for me, financially, and I’m really ready to get back to doing stuff I haven’t done in a long time. But not enough to risk others’ health over it.

We all have decisions to make, and we won’t all agree on them. But we can’t afford to ignore information that lets us fully evaluate the risks.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
@Flying Crane
Let me put it this way. I respect your opinion.
But right now, I don't respect you, because of the way you arrived at your opinion. You only listen to the people who give you the data you want. That's why you're a sheep.
Wow. The data that I want to see is that Covid is going away. But there is no data supporting that conclusion. The data in fact supports the opposite of that.

I wish I was getting the data that I want. I don’t enjoy staying away from everyone outside of my household. I wish I could gather and visit with family and friends, and meet with my Sifu for training. I don’t like wearing a mask and having to make a detour around people when I’m walking down the sidewalk. I would like to go see a movie in a theater and I wish I had employment because unemployment benefits won’t last forever. But this is reality. I can’t change what it is, I can only act responsibly and encourage others to do the same so that one day we can get back closer to normal.

Sheep, my ***. Statements like that are pathetic. It shows you’ve got nothing.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,446
Reaction score
2,517
Nobody has asked you to follow beliefs. We have suggested you follow scientific facts. You are the only one here being dismissive.

Nobody in the general population has been imprisoned, which is why your comparison to interment camps is off-base. Your insults and personal attacks do nothing to support your position.

As I stated in the other thread, there are facts, and opinions based on those facts. The fact is the disease is far less morbid than originally thought. That fact has been interpreted in very different ways.

I've provided sources, they've been rejected. I've provided interpretations of the facts, they've been mocked.

When my facts and logics are dismissed, what am I left with? All I got are insults. And why do you deserve any less, if all you've done is dismiss my sources and pretend they don't exist, and then mock me for my beliefs?

You don't want to read my sources or the facts I provide? Fine. But then why should I listen to yours?
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,976
Reaction score
10,540
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I think far more people have had the disease than we know. This is from the antibody testings and from times when they test everyone and find the majority of those with the disease are asymptotic.

I think the disease was here before it was confirmed to have been, and it only made headlines when it swept through nursing homes. I think a lot of people have had it already and don't even know it.

I think the fears of the disease have waned a lot in response to the BLM protests. My governor won't let churches reopen because safety trumps the first amendment, but he's fine with the protests because we can't interfere with their first amendment rights.

My cousin in another state has documentation from his state that barbecues are limited to gatherings of 5, but protests to gatherings of 100.

The more data that comes out, the less these measures make sense. Some states have reopened without spikes in hospitalization. There's more and more data of people having mild or asymptotic cases of the disease, since we've expanded tests beyond those that require hospitalization.

More and more, what is and isn't allowed is based on political opinions. In Europe, brothels are opening before martial arts schools. Why? Is that a safe activity with a virus? Why are the first amendment rights of protestors more important than the first amendment rights of churches?

It's political. It's all political. If you think it isn't, you've fallen prey.
Just because some parts of governmental response don’t make sense, that doesn’t invalidate the entire response. I agree those things you cite (all of which I assume to be accurate) don’t make sense on their face. Perhaps some of them make more sense if looked at closely, but I don’t have that information. None of that, however, suggests the disease isn’t dangerous.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,446
Reaction score
2,517
We all have decisions to make, and we won’t all agree on them. But we can’t afford to ignore information that lets us fully evaluate the risks.

That's my point. People are ignoring the risks of staying closed.

To say they're less than reopening based on your opinion is fine. To say they don't exist or don't matter is stupid.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,212
Reaction score
6,308
Location
New York
As I stated in the other thread, there are facts, and opinions based on those facts. The fact is the disease is far less morbid than originally thought. That fact has been interpreted in very different ways.

I've provided sources, they've been rejected. I've provided interpretations of the facts, they've been mocked.

When my facts and logics are dismissed, what am I left with? All I got are insults. And why do you deserve any less, if all you've done is dismiss my sources and pretend they don't exist, and then mock me for my beliefs?

You don't want to read my sources or the facts I provide? Fine. But then why should I listen to yours?
Its far less morbid than some thought and far more than others thought.

And you're the one calling people sheep, immature teenagers and insulting them for their viewpoints on this. But complaining that you're the one being mocked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Discussions

Top