Stopping an active shooter

[Tez3]

Semi auto in the conventional manner has enough ability to effectively kill as any other method short of a belt fed machine gun.

When the SLR was first issued to the British military it was semi automatic, automatic and single. That was soon modified to take away automatic, ammunition was being used far too fast ( made the accountants unhappy) as semi was more than adequate. My other half loved his though he also had a GPMG as well as using other weapons ( such as a Bofors anti aircraft guns and Rapier missiles. His trade was gunner. Bofors to Rapier shows the beginning to the end of his service.)
He said the Aussies he'd worked with also used the SLR.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To use that definition of "in effect" then we could say, "in effect it really wasn't particularly different from using a semi-auto shotgun with buckshot" because every pull of the trigger sent a bunch of projectiles downrange.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just saying that, particularly in this case, terminology is very important.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The distinction is different, Kirk. The definition of “fully automatic” is an official thing. That definition currently hinges on whether a single trigger pull fires one cartridge or many (excepting multi-barrel setups). Functionally, a bump stock produces an effect quite similar to what is officially “fully automatic”. That is the intent of the phrase - to indicate that the effect is similar.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just a point of clarification. There are liberal gun owners and conservatives who are not pro-NRA. And for the record, I am not anti-gun, and my liberal friends think I'm a conservative and my conservative friends think I'm a liberal, when I'm really just on Team Common Sense.

Sounds like we may have some common views.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From what I know you can get FA weapons in some states but to do so requires licensing at the federal level and you have to pay an expensive fee and you get registered with the federal government as a Class III firearms holder and even then you can only get FA weapons that were manufactured prior to 1986.

The fee itself, IIRC, isn’t high (low hundreds of $). The guns often cost in the 5-figure range.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I get it, but I think you're conflating Republican with Conservative, and Democrat with Liberal. Republicans tend to be pro gun control. Conservatives run the gamut.

I was going to reply that since most of americans view themselves as either democrat or republican, it doesn't really matter much either way, but decided to fact check myself before I did. Turns out I was wrong! According to Gallup, 29% are republican, 30% are democrats, and 40% are independent. So that leaves a lot of people who may be either liberal or conservative, but not affiliated with either major party. Now I know...

 

[drop bear]

When the SLR was first issued to the British military it was semi automatic, automatic and single. That was soon modified to take away automatic, ammunition was being used far too fast ( made the accountants unhappy) as semi was more than adequate. My other half loved his though he also had a GPMG as well as using other weapons ( such as a Bofors anti aircraft guns and Rapier missiles. His trade was gunner. Bofors to Rapier shows the beginning to the end of his service.)
He said the Aussies he'd worked with also used the SLR.

I was told the SLR. would blow up if you used it full auto for too long. It can be modified back by using a matchstick aparently. (Not something I was ever allowed to try)

(For everyone else the slr is a semi auto rifle thats shoots M60 rounds. The idea being that you have one round for all the guns or something)

The Steyer, which they use now, has a little button on the trigger that does a 3 round burst.

I have fired both.

 

[CDR_Glock]

Yes there was a case of a hotel security guard being shot and injured in the hallway when he approached the door to the room. The shooter had put cameras outside the room so he would know if anybody was coming. Im thinking, perhaps hotel security should be armed and should wear bullet proof vests. Most of the time we don't even have ordinary police around the moment when something like this happens let alone SWAT teams.

Since he was using rifles, a person would need a class IV or Class III set of body armor. It's pretty heavy stuff... I only have Class IIIA which stops 44 Magnum or a 357 Sig.






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[CDR_Glock]

From what I know you can get FA weapons in some states but to do so requires licensing at the federal level and you have to pay an expensive fee and you get registered with the federal government as a Class III firearms holder and even then you can only get FA weapons that were manufactured prior to 1986.

One can set up a trust to acquire Class III weapons (Full auto, Short Barreled rifles and Suppressors). It can be a 1 year wait, and it's a $200 tax stamp on top of the price of the item. I just don't have that kind of patience to wait for that. I set up my trust. But I haven't set up my patience.


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[PhotonGuy]

The fee itself, IIRC, isn’t high (low hundreds of $). The guns often cost in the 5-figure range.

Well yes, and considering the fact that you will be on the government's radar, and the cost of the guns, it makes more sense that somebody would get them off the black market if they intend to use them to commit crime.

 

[CDR_Glock]

Well yes, and considering the fact that you will be on the government's radar, and the cost of the guns, it makes more sense that somebody would get them off the black market if they intend to use them to commit crime.

Full auto cost $18k and up to $50k and above.

I believe the auto sear for an AR-15 is $25k. A small CNC miller piece of metal that costs $50 to make.


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[PhotonGuy]

Since he was using rifles, a person would need a class IV or Class III set of body armor. It's pretty heavy stuff... I only have Class IIIA which stops 44 Magnum or a 357 Sig.

Yes you're right. As far as I know no handguns were found in his hotel room and no handguns were used in the shooting although handguns often are used in the close quarters of a hotel room or hallway. I've seen plates that could stop a .30 06 rifle round but as you said, they're heavy. Perhaps they could have body armor that hotel security would only use in emergencies such as this.

 

[drop bear]

Yes you're right. As far as I know no handguns were found in his hotel room and no handguns were used in the shooting although handguns often are used in the close quarters of a hotel room or hallway. I've seen plates that could stop a .30 06 rifle round but as you said, they're heavy. Perhaps they could have body armor that hotel security would only use in emergencies such as this.

Put it in the Windows.

 

[PhotonGuy]

One can set up a trust to acquire Class III weapons (Full auto, Short Barreled rifles and Suppressors). It can be a 1 year wait, and it's a $200 tax stamp on top of the price of the item. I just don't have that kind of patience to wait for that. I set up my trust. But I haven't set up my patience.

For me, I don't want to be on the government's radar. At least not any more than an ordinary citizen already is. Aside from that as its been mentioned here the guns themselves are very expensive, about as expensive as a new car. As it is I don't have any need for any Class III weapons. They're cool and all and sometimes I get to shoot them at this shooting school I go to but I just don't see a need for me to get a Class III weapon and its not worth it to me to be on the government's radar to get one. That and the expense.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Put it in the Windows.

Are you suggesting bullet proof glass?

 

[drop bear]

Are you suggesting bullet proof glass?

Yes. Yes I am.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes. Yes I am.

That might not be a bad idea but it would be expensive.

 

[CB Jones]

Sure, and we can take refuge behind convenient definitions, or we can recognize reality for what it is.

If he had used a semi-auto weapon and had simply pulled the trigger over and over, very quickly, and without some kind of mechanical aid, then I would agree with you.

But he did not do that. He used a mechanical aid that enabled him to fire at a much higher rate than he would have been able to maintain on his own, without that mechanical aid.

He used a fully automatic weapon.

No

Fully automatic does not mean the gun just fires at a high rate.

A fully automatic weapon fires repeatedly without resetting the trigger. A semi automatic fires repeatedly but requires the trigger to be reset prior to each shot.

Bump firing is a technique that allows you to reset the trigger rapidly while firing a gun. A bump-fire stock just does the technique for you.

You can Bump Fire most guns without mechanical aid. You can bump fire a handgun using your support hand. You can Bump fire rifles using your beltloop. Theorectically, you can bump fire a bolt-action rifle if you have someone else work the action fast enough.

If you put a bump fire stock on a bolt action rifle.....it is still a bolt action rifle....no matter how fast you work the action.

Every round he fired was proceeded with a reset of the trigger which means he was not firing a fully automatic weapon.

So he did not use a fully automatic weapon......He Bump Fired a Semi-Automatic Weapon using a Bump-Fire Stock.

 

[Steve]

From what I know you can get FA weapons in some states but to do so requires licensing at the federal level and you have to pay an expensive fee and you get registered with the federal government as a Class III firearms holder and even then you can only get FA weapons that were manufactured prior to 1986.

Exactly, or you can get a semi auto rifle and a bjmp stock. end result is an jnnaccurate, high capacity rifle with a high rate of fire.

 

[Steve]

No

Fully automatic does not mean the gun just fires at a high rate.

A fully automatic weapon fires repeatedly without resetting the trigger. A semi automatic fires repeatedly but requires the trigger to be reset prior to each shot.

Bump firing is a technique that allows you to reset the trigger rapidly while firing a gun. A bump-fire stock just does the technique for you.

You can Bump Fire most guns without mechanical aid. You can bump fire a handgun using your support hand. You can Bump fire rifles using your beltloop. Theorectically, you can bump fire a bolt-action rifle if you have someone else work the action fast enough.

If you put a bump fire stock on a bolt action rifle.....it is still a bolt action rifle....no matter how fast you work the action.

Every round he fired was proceeded with a reset of the trigger which means he was not firing a fully automatic weapon.

So he did not use a fully automatic weapon......He Bump Fired a Semi-Automatic Weapon using a Bump-Fire Stock.

The point being missed here is that some folks, myself included, understand the technical difference and believe it is a red herring to the actual discussion. its a distraction to the fact that he fired a lot of bullets jnto a large crowd and did a tremendous amount of harm in something like 12 minutes. 5 people died in the boston massacre. we are into another stratosphere of scale here.

 

[Steve]

I was going to reply that since most of americans view themselves as either democrat or republican, it doesn't really matter much either way, but decided to fact check myself before I did. Turns out I was wrong! According to Gallup, 29% are republican, 30% are democrats, and 40% are independent. So that leaves a lot of people who may be either liberal or conservative, but not affiliated with either major party. Now I know...

exactly!!!