Sport And TMA....Again

[Hanzou]

Mmm! Perhaps history isn't your strong suite or is it selective amnesia?

Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju Ryu studied Judo.

His successor in the Garden dojo Eiichi Myazoto was also a judo man.

So you are saying that the guys who founded the karate system that I study and practise who were both Judo instructors wouldn't have passed on the finer points of judo to their students. How stupid would that be. The fact that 90% of our training is hands on at grappling distance doesn't reflect that? You are totally ignorant of other styles and systems and constantly present bulls#1t as fact.

Where did I say that the founder of Goju Ryu never studied Judo? I'm saying that by 1993 most martial arts had largely ignored ground fighting for decades, and that included Judo.

 

[K-man]

I give up. Your right man. There was nobody touching the ground prior to the 90s. Even when there are people here telling you they trained ground fighting prior to the Gracie's and BJJ you tell them they don't know what they were learning. Even when there is photographic evidence of someone controlling a guy on the ground from 100 years ago that's wrong too. So believe what you will. Your the only one that thinks your right.

Just to refresh my mind. Is you understanding of "TROLL" the same as mine?

 

[ballen0351]

I'm saying that .

And your wrong

 

[K-man]

Where did I say that the founder of Goju Ryu never studied Judo? I'm saying that by 1993 most martial arts had largely ignored ground fighting for decades, and that included Judo.

You didn't, but you implied that ground fighting didn't exist in the TMAs and that is patent BS like most of the crap you have been posting. And if you reread your posts I'm sure you will find no sign of 'largely ignored'. In you posts you are saying apart from Judo there was no ground game and that even judo wasn't doing much.

 

[K-man]

This "flavor of the week" has lasted for over 20 years.

Sorry! Here the new 'flavour of the week' is MMA, and the up and coming one seems to be Krav Maga. BJJ is an established style but not all that popular and recently a number of schools have closed including the one in the dojo where I study aikido.

Maybe BJJ is huge in your own mind but not necessarily elsewhere. A bit like you actually!

 

[SENC-33]

A self defense situation is meant to end quickly as possible.....Ground fighting as your primary defense is in no way, shape or form the best application to accomplish that goal. If you watch your common bjj sparring you see guys break free, escape and get to their feet all the time. Then they go right back to the ground again because they are trained to go there as if it is a wise arena to do battle.

 

[Hanzou]

You didn't, but you implied that ground fighting didn't exist in the TMAs and that is patent BS like most of the crap you have been posting. And if you reread your posts I'm sure you will find no sign of 'largely ignored'. In you posts you are saying apart from Judo there was no ground game and that even judo wasn't doing much.

Im pretty sure that I said it wasn't being trained by TMAs, and combat sports in general not that they didn't exist in TMAs. Even Judoka cross train in Bjj, despite many of the moves already existing in Judo. Why? Because Judo by and large didn't teach Newaza in depth for decades.

Regardless, all of that is irrelevant. The point is that Bjj revolutionized MA via competition.

 

[K-man]

Regardless, all of that is irrelevant. The point is that Bjj revolutionized MA via competition.

No one is disputing that and no one is disputing the effectiveness of BJJ in self defence. How come you have spent so much times putting down other styles?

 

[Takai]

No one is disputing that and no one is disputing the effectiveness of BJJ in self defence. How come you have spent so much times putting down other styles?

Arrogance? Lack of understanding perhaps? You can lead a (insert your preferred animal here) but, you can't make them drink.

I can't believe that I got sucked down this spiraling rabbit hole discussion again.

 

[Hanzou]

No one is disputing that and no one is disputing the effectiveness of BJJ in self defence. How come you have spent so much times putting down other styles?

I fail to see how saying that ground fighting wasn't the focus of many classical martial art styles is "putting them down". Punching and kicking isn't the focus of Bjj and Judo and in many cases isn't taught. Kicks and takedowns aren't taught in Boxing. Is that putting down Judo, Bjj, and boxing, or merely pointing out what the art focuses on?

if the norm in MA and combat sports was grappling and ground fighting, and some little known art came along and was knocking people out with devastating punches and kicks in a NHB competition within a matter of minutes, it would revolutionize that MA world just like Bjj did to ours. That happened because MA had by and large ignored the benefits of ground fighting.

 

[ballen0351]

I fail to see how saying ground fighting wasn't the focus of many classical martial art styles is "putting them down". Punching and kicking isn't the focus of Bjj and Judo and in many cases isn't taught. Kicks and takedowns aren't taught in Boxing. Is that putting down Judo, Bjj, and boxing, or merely pointing out what the art focuses on?

You never said its not the focus of other arts thats correct its not, you said it didn't exist, wasn't taught, ect. When then given examples of what was taught and what existed you said they were vague memories and were wrong. You even had the Gaul to claim ground fighting wasn't being taught in Judo anymore which was just wrong. Watch judo clips from the 60s and from today there isn't much difference other then rule changes.

 

[K-man]

I can't believe that I got sucked down this spiraling rabbit hole discussion again.

True, but arguing on MT is the only form of sparring we do in TMAs. Everyone knows we can't fight.

But seriously, if you don't refute bulls#1t when it surfaces, others start to accept it as fact and even though this is classic trolling it will crop up again and again in other threads. Better to discredit it now than wish we had done later.
: asian:

 

[Takai]

I fail to see how saying that ground fighting wasn't the focus of many classical martial art styles is "putting them down". Punching and kicking isn't the focus of Bjj and Judo and in many cases isn't taught. Kicks and takedowns aren't taught in Boxing. Is that putting down Judo, Bjj, and boxing, or merely pointing out what the art focuses on?

So if I said that BJJ couldn't "punch its way out of wet paper bag" that wouldn't be putting it down? That in reality is what you are saying about all of the other martial arts. "If it ain't BJJ than it ain't C$#%. You are sticking to a nonsensical argument. Even when the facts that you have quote have been refuted multiple times you still ignore them. And continue in your own zealous way to spout garbage.

This isn't a discussion anymore (not sure that it ever was) it is merely your zealous crusade to ignore evidence and push your own agenda even when you contradict yourself. You keep saying it is all about the style and not individual instructors. Yet the only people that you credit with anything are the Gracies.

You can't see what other people are saying because either 1) you don't want to (and prefer the bubble that in which BJJ is completely omnipotent, or 2) are unable to accept than anyone may know things that you don't. Either way it really doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to the rest of us. It really isn't our job to correct your misunderstandings. Several very respected members here have already attempted to to so politely and been ignored or nastily rebuffed (and still not have a solid, undeniable argument).

I for one am done with this pointless (and circular logic) argument that you keep using. I will continue to train hard in my chosen TMA as I am sure that you will keep training in yours.

Enjoy the journey but, stop telling everyone else that they don't anything about their own.

 

[Takai]

True, but arguing on MT is the only form of sparring we do in TMAs. Everyone knows we can't fight.

Shhh...no one is supposed to know that.

But seriously, if you don't refute bulls#1t when it surfaces, others start to accept it as fact and even though this is classic trolling it will crop up again and again in other threads. Better to discredit it now than wish we had done later.
: asian:

I was pretty sure that the last several pages had already done that. I think that we could probably just go back and cut & paste our previous responses to the argument that keeps being used.

 

[Hanzou]

You never said its not the focus of other arts thats correct its not, you said it didn't exist, wasn't taught, ect.

Because it wasn't/didn't. Again this is why when people from other styles wish to learn ground fighting, they don't dust off the ancient manuals of their mother style, they crosstrain in Bjj. Even 20 years after ground fighting exploded on the scene following the first UFC, groundfighting still isn't taught in many TMA schools. Kframe's anecdote about the TKD school has largely been my experience as well, which is why I just went ahead and learned Bjj.

When then given examples of what was taught and what existed you said they were vague memories and were wrong. You even had the Gaul to claim ground fighting wasn't being taught in Judo anymore which was just wrong. Watch judo clips from the 60s and from today there isn't much difference other then rule changes.

Well a takedown defense hidden at the end of a kata form isn't something I would consider a vast ground work curriculum. As for Judo, I never said it wasn't being taught, I said it was largely being ignored because the focus of Judo has always been throws. The exact opposite happened with Bjj that largely ignored throws in favor of takedowns and ground work. Tachiwaza still exist in Bjj, and Newaza still exists in Judo, however the key difference between the two is the focus of each style.

 

[Hanzou]

So if I said that BJJ couldn't "punch its way out of wet paper bag" that wouldn't be putting it down? That in reality is what you are saying about all of the other martial arts. "If it ain't BJJ than it ain't C$#%. You are sticking to a nonsensical argument.

Please post the quote where I stated or implied that other MAs ain't "_____".

More to the point, if I said the Bjj doesn't teach you to kick as well as a TKD exponent, or punch as well as a Boxer, I would have no problem with that statement. I'm curious as to why some of you are having such a problem with me stating that Bjj and the Gracies brought ground fighting, a largely ignored aspect of fighting up to that time, to the forefront of martial arts after the first UFC in 1993.

This isn't a discussion anymore (not sure that it ever was) it is merely your zealous crusade to ignore evidence and push your own agenda even when you contradict yourself. You keep saying it is all about the style and not individual instructors. Yet the only people that you credit with anything are the Gracies.

Given the context of this discussion (competition changing martial arts), I think crediting the Gracies is a perfectly fair thing to do, because they definitely changed the MA landscape.

 

[K-man]

I'm curious as to why some of you are having such a problem with me stating that Bjj and the Gracies brought ground fighting, a largely ignored aspect of fighting up to that time, to the forefront of martial arts after the first UFC in 1993.

Given the context of this discussion (competition changing martial arts), I think crediting the Gracies is a perfectly fair thing to do, because they definitely changed the MA landscape.

If that was all you were saying we would all be in full agreement.

 

[ballen0351]

Because it wasn't/didn't.

And your still WRONG Prove it prove that nobody was training for the ground prior to BJJ. Since you ignore all evidence PROVING the contrary.

Again this is why when people from other styles wish to learn ground fighting, they don't dust off the ancient manuals of their mother style, they crosstrain in Bjj. Even 20 years after ground fighting exploited on the scene following the first UFC, groundfighting still isn't taught in many TMA schools.

Prove it. Just because its not your style of ground fighting does not mean it's not being taught. So prove that nobody is teaching ground fighting in TMA schools

Kframe's anecdote about the TKD school has largely been my experience as well, which is why I just went ahead and learned Bjj.

I doubt you actually have learned or train in anything other then watching Youtube

Well a takedown defense hidden at the end of a kata form isn't something I would consider a vast ground work curriculum

Who said it was vast? I simply said it was there. Its also more then takedown defense.

. As for Judo, I never said it wasn't being taught, I said it was largely being ignored because the focus of Judo has always been throws. The exact opposite happened with Bjj that largely ignored throws in favor of takedowns and ground work. Tachiwaza still exist in Bjj, and Newaza still exists in Judo, however the key difference between the two is the focus of each style.

thats not what you said.

 

[K-man]

Please post the quote where I stated or implied that other MAs ain't "_____".

How about;

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I don't believe that TMAs are all that effective. Swinging a sword around or doing katas/forms isn't going to prepare you for that 250lb gorilla trying to bring pain down upon you. The martial sports are simply better. Why? Because the martial sports get you in better shape, are highly competitive, are highly combative, and cross train constantly. [/FONT]

or

Its not just sport karate that loses out to boxers and wrestlers. Its karate in general, along with many other traditional styles. Hence why those styles shy away from competition. Competition would expose their effectiveness in a fight.

and again

The fact that Judoka and Bjj practitioners can perform locks and throws in a competitive environment while traditional arts cannot proves my point. Regardless of the training method your TMA employs, the superior method of utilizing locks, throws, and submissions was created by the Kodokan over a century ago.

and

Aikido isn't a part of the standard MMA curriculum you see in many MMA schools. Mostly because its viewed as ineffective, despite it being a modern form of MA.

and

Again correct, because traditional karatekas don't compete. So there's no way for anyone to actually gauge the effectiveness of anything they're doing. There's no way for anyone to actually see if Iain Abernethy can actually apply any of that pretty bunkai on an opponent trying to cave his face in. That's the problem. Unfortunately for students of such styles, its also the perfect scam.

and this little gem

If a Bjj school opens up and other Bjj practitioners go to that school and find out its a joke, its not going to be open very long. However, there's numerous examples of TMA scammers and phonies being open for decades.

or

I haven't trained in a traditional MA style. Mostly because I could never verify whether it was real or some scam. Also all the squabbles about lineage and "purity" was annoying and childish. I moved over to Judo/Bjj and boxing. Much quieter, and quite a bit more effective.

and another putdown

The difference being of course how each one trains. MMAs tend to be more modern and alive. TMAs tend to utilize old training methods and patterned movements. Its like comparing an AK-47 to a musket.

And a genuine apology to finish

I apologize if you think I'm "bashing" TMAs. I'm simply pointing out their flaws, and the problems that I have witnessed from their practitioners. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry I wasn't sure of the quote to which you were referring so I've posted a few!

and do just one more for luck;

Let's just say that I've been around the block a few times. Being trained in martial arts has allowed me to experience many different styles of martial arts. I am thankful for that, because it has allowed me to cut through the BS of a lot of claims and fantasies. Again, if my children were seeking a Martial Art for self defense, a TMA wouldn't be on the radar.

I didn't have time to reread the entire thread but the first 10 pages or nearly 60 produced these. I'm sure there are plenty more where these came from.

 

[Hanzou]

And your still WRONG Prove it prove that nobody was training for the ground prior to BJJ. Since you ignore all evidence PROVING the contrary.

You mean other than traditional MAs teaching Bjj techniques for ground fighting?

Prove it. Just because its not your style of ground fighting does not mean it's not being taught. So prove that nobody is teaching ground fighting in TMA schools

The videos above prove it. The examples above are of schools that went outside their art to learn ground fighting. I'm willing to bet that the majority of TMA schools aren't going outside of their arts to learn it or teach it, since it isn't their focus.

Who said it was vast? I simply said it was there. Its also more then takedown defense.

A takedown defense at the end of a kata sequence doesn't mean your art has ground fighting.