Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

I wouldn't say its a super deadly technique in so much as its competition that is giving MMA the edge over TMA. For example, after the first UFC, ground fighting exploded, and everyone realized how important it was to learn how to defend yourself if someone puts you on the ground. Before that, most people didn't train for ground fighting at all. In fact, when the Gracies first arrived in the states, they had a hard time getting students because no one wanted to fight on the ground. With Royce's performance in the UFC, that all changed. Today, most people think you're crazy if you don't teach ground fighting of some type for sport AND self defense.

In Bjj, the Triangle Choke re-emerged because a Brazilian was flipping through an old Judo book from the 1920s, and decided to use the technique during a Bjj match. The choke was so effective that it was quickly added into the Bjj curriculum.

A lot of MMA gyms are currently seeking Boxing coaches because a lot of MMA fighters are requesting it to help in their stand up. Anderson Silva's evasion tactics, and Alexander Gustafsson's strong performance against Jon Jones showed how great Boxing skills can make a difference in a fight.

That isn't to say that all competition can be good. Some arts definitely suffer because of it. Judo being a prime example of how sport rules can damage a martial art. However, if utilized properly, competition can make a martial art a lot better, and push its evolution. MMA and Bjj are great examples of that.

..,..

 

[ballen0351]

I wouldn't say its a super deadly technique in so much as its competition that is giving MMA the edge over TMA. For example, after the first UFC, ground fighting exploded, and everyone realized how important it was to learn how to defend yourself if someone puts you on the ground. Before that, most people didn't train for ground fighting at all. In fact, when the Gracies first arrived in the states, they had a hard time getting students because no one wanted to fight on the ground. With Royce's performance in the UFC, that all changed. Today, most people think you're crazy if you don't teach ground fighting of some type for sport AND self defense.

In Bjj, the Triangle Choke re-emerged because a Brazilian was flipping through an old Judo book from the 1920s, and decided to use the technique during a Bjj match. The choke was so effective that it was quickly added into the Bjj curriculum.

A lot of MMA gyms are currently seeking Boxing coaches because a lot of MMA fighters are requesting it to help in their stand up. Anderson Silva's evasion tactics, and Alexander Gustafsson's strong performance against Jon Jones showed how great Boxing skills can make a difference in a fight.

That isn't to say that all competition can be good. Some arts definitely suffer because of it. Judo being a prime example of how sport rules can damage a martial art. However, if utilized properly, competition can make a martial art a lot better, and push its evolution. MMA and Bjj are great examples of that.

Again your making the assumption that MMA and BJJ are the only ones training for ground fighting. That's just not the case. You also assume because the Gracie's did well in UFC that ment all other arts are not effective. Again just not the case. Gracie's were better then the guys they fought. That's the point. Its people fighting not styles. Just because someone claims to be a TKD fighter or Isshin Ryu or Goju fighter doesn't mean they are any good. Just like when I spar with my friend Joe that trains BJJ I crush him 9 out of 10 times. Not because BJJ is not effective but because he just isn't very good he gets impatient and sloppy. So does he represent BJJ or does he represent Joe? Do I represent Goju or Do I represent me?

 

[Hanzou]

Again your making the assumption that MMA and BJJ are the only ones training for ground fighting. That's just not the case. You also assume because the Gracie's did well in UFC that ment all other arts are not effective. Again just not the case. Gracie's were better then the guys they fought. That's the point. Its people fighting not styles. Just because someone claims to be a TKD fighter or Isshin Ryu or Goju fighter doesn't mean they are any good. Just like when I spar with my friend Joe that trains BJJ I crush him 9 out of 10 times. Not because BJJ is not effective but because he just isn't very good he gets impatient and sloppy. So does he represent BJJ or does he represent Joe? Do I represent Goju or Do I represent me?

I never said any of that. I said that before the first UFC, none of the traditional styles trained for ground fighting at all. Even Judo, from which Bjj came from had pretty much neglected ground fighting.

Fast forward to today, and almost everyone does ground fighting. Why? Because the Gracies proved that fighting on the ground was viable for fighting and self defense purposes. All of that emerged from a small competition that was held in 1993 that eventually blew up to become a popular global sport. The very fact that no one questions the value of learning groundfighting these days as opposed to 20 years ago when most people didn't even acknowledge it as a viable form of fighting shows how important competition and sport can be in the martial arts.

 

[ballen0351]

I never said any of that. I said that before the first UFC, none of the traditional styles trained for ground fighting at all. Even Judo, from which Bjj came from had pretty much neglected ground fighting.

Fast forward to today, and almost everyone does ground fighting. Why? Because the Gracies proved that fighting on the ground was viable for fighting and self defense purposes. All of that emerged from a small competition that was held in 1993 that eventually blew up to become a popular global sport. The very fact that no one questions the value of learning groundfighting these days as opposed to 20 years ago when most people didn't even acknowledge it as a viable form of fighting shows how important competition and sport can be in the martial arts.

And again you assume ground fighting wasn't already a part of the TMAs arsenal. It may not have been taught at the time or maybe it was. Maybe the type of guy that was entering these fight comps had a mind set that they didn't need ground fighting because they can "kick peoples butts" and won't end up on the ground. That does not mean it wasn't in the "old dust books" of the styles. Most people do train in ground fighting now where do you think these skills came from?

Also you keep mixing sport fights vs real life which are totally different.

 

[Kframe]

K man, I was not talking about black belts with regards to taking 5-6years to learn to use the art. I was talking in general. About the only art were black belt means any thing is BJJ and that usually denotes mastery, and that is how the art is set up. I kinda thought it was common knowledge that black belt was only part way through the system in many tma.

I agree with your sentiment that much of what people cross train for may be found in your karate. Problem is, not many are teaching it very well. Out of all the dojo I visited, I saw nothing that told me they had advanced beyond basic understanding. SO sure what you or I may need is found in the system, but there is a sizeable amount of schools not teaching it in any quality way. I keep coming back to the striking defense. You would think a lineage of karate, say GOJO or Shorin, would have set ways of dealing with attacks throught the entirety of the system. Sadly you can take 4 different schools from the same Lineage and they will have 4 different applications of the same defense. The fact that karate cant even agree with it self on how to use the defenses is just odd.... Is each defense a combo or a rather long way to learn on movment? Its questions like this that go on debated and unanswered. About the only real answere is to do what your teacher says, but what if he is teaching you something diluted.

There is so much potential in tma for such awesomeness. Yet so many places train so softly.. Hell its the only complaint I have with Budo Taijutsu. It is no were near the intensity im used to. Both in speed of the attacks I have to deal with and the pacing of the class. Thankfully I can supplement my cardio in a good spin class.

I am sorry if I came across as style bashing. Maybe ill try to think a little harder about what I type.

I still believe that thugs are in mma. They are training very hard, in what amounts to a full service dojo. Not only are they getting a high intensity martial art, they are getting a full service conditioning coach all on the same area and included in the monthly cost.. The thug mma will be truly frightening. He is stronger, faster and has incredible cardio.. Can your students meet that threat in a dark ally, or parking lot or bar room?

 

[Hanzou]

And again you assume ground fighting wasn't already a part of the TMAs arsenal. It may not have been taught at the time or maybe it was. Maybe the type of guy that was entering these fight comps had a mind set that they didn't need ground fighting because they can "kick peoples butts" and won't end up on the ground. That does not mean it wasn't in the "old dust books" of the styles. Most people do train in ground fighting now where do you think these skills came from?

In modern times, those skills come from Bjj because by 1993, no one had been training in those methods for decades. Not even Judo.

Also you keep mixing sport fights vs real life which are totally different.

I have my reasons;

 

[Kframe]

The 5-6 years comment was born out of the comment I have heard repeatedly here and from various instructors. " you don't really start to learn the real art until black belt". Which is 4-6 years way depending on style. So ya, if your only learning glorified basics, and not really being taught the art, how can you expect to be able to use anything if what your learning is not the real art?

 

[Aiki Lee]

I mentioned that one of the things that may make the sporting arts appear to not be effective in the eyes of some, is the lack of SD techniques that we typically see in most other arts. I'll use Kenpo for example. There're defenses for pretty much every attack out there: punches, grabs, chokes, kicks, weapons, etc. Usually the sport guys say that the notion of defending yourself against multiple, weapons, etc, is a fallacy. I commented to Steve that if in fact this is true, then technically all one really needs to work on, is pure fighting skill.

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

As a youth I thought what made a martial art different from another martial art was the variety of techniques it had compared to others. It wasn't until much later that I learned that it is the principles and specific strategies and tactics that make an art unique and effective. Using preset techniques to teach these lessons and principles will improve skill and help a student understand why something works and how to properly apply that technique or a similar one with similar principles. To view preset techniques as something along the lines of "this is my hook punch defense" or "this is my not getting stabbed in the face defense" is rather limiting I believe. I don't see how someone could access the correct folder in his brain to pull out the correct technique under pressure.

Using techniques as examples to teach specific skills are the way to go.

 

[ballen0351]

The 5-6 years comment was born out of the comment I have heard repeatedly here and from various instructors. " you don't really start to learn the real art until black belt". Which is 4-6 years way depending on style. So ya, if your only learning glorified basics, and not really being taught the art, how can you expect to be able to use anything if what your learning is not the real art?

Knowing enough to defend yourself is a far different thing then beginning to fully understand something. You learn to write in elementary school buy still take English classes in college right?

 

[ballen0351]

In modern times, those skills come from Bjj because by 1993, no one had been training in those methods for decades. Not even Judo.

They didn't just invent them from thin air. They came from other arts like you said people looked through old Judo books or remembered old techniques. Also there were guys still training for ground fighting prior to the 90s my Goju teacher remembers doing some arm bars and wrist locks and chokes back in the 70s
Of course not to the level of BJJ that's not the main focus of "striking" arts. But its there and always been there. I've seen pictures of old Okinawan training legs locks back in the 30s before.

I have my reasons;

I can't watch them from my phone but I will when I get to a computer

 

[Aiki Lee]

Since the majority of karate andtkd on every street corner is mcdojo id say your wrong about them going out ofbusiness if they didn't work. The skill sets from mcdojo's don't work yet theystill remain.

Any martial art taught poorly isn’t going to work. Justbecause there are a lot of bad apples claiming to represent something doesn’tmean they actually do represent the way a specific art is meant to be taughtand presented.

People who can "beat the crap out of people"generally can also defend them selves very well.

I would argue there is a difference between defendingyourself and fighting. Some people are good at both, and some are only good atone or the other.

Maybe its time TMA look at mma asthe THE threat they are. Thugs and gangsta's are not training karate, they aredoing mma. IF tma can not meet the threat that mma truly is, then tma needs toend or change. MMA is the the most dangerous unarmed threat to the averageperson and martial artist of our time. IF your art is not realisticallyprepared to meet it, then it needs to end.

I disagree with a lot of this and here’s why. Criminalsin my area with gang affiliation tend to do less “beating up” and more stabbingor shooting. I’m not saying there aren’t people who practice MMA so they can gomisuse it, but I would not say it is as common of a practice you might lead usto believe. Certainly something to consider but not adjust a whole curriculumover it. Also if a martial art does notaddress any kind of issues one might perceive from MMA that does not mean itneeds to change. All martial arts are designed for a specific reason and meantheir own specific needs to the unique challenges for which they were designed.Besides just because someone doesn’t recognize if an art has a method ofdealing with a specific situation or threat does not mean it does not exist inthat art.

All this BS of "to deadly forthe ring" is just BS. Stop relying on low percentage techs and focus onhigh percentage ones. The high percentage techs set up the low percentage"deadly" techs.

I think a lot of people with limited skill or confidencewill use the argument that “our techniques are too dangerous for the ring”, butin some cases it can be true. Bear with me here most traditional martial artsbreak the rules in MMA competitions. Now this doesn’t mean the sportsman can’tdo it either, but some TMAs only train this way and can’t operate without breakinga competition rule. The most dangerous techniques are the simplest ones andthey end fights quickly which is exactly the opposite of what people want in acompetition. So I think an argument can be made for this, but not if someone isusing it as a cover up for their lack of confidence in their art.

MMA is constantly evolving and adding new techniques, yetTMA is stagnant having learned nothing from the spanking they got from 1993onwards.

There was very little quality control of who got tocompete in the early UFC competitions. You can’t possibly believe that thosesingle individuals represent entire disciplines do you?

You would think that tma wouldstart addressing there shortcomings after your best and brightest get spanked,yet they didn't.

Can you point out where the “best and brightest” gotserved? When did this happen?

Videos still crop up of TMA gettingspanked. Im willing to bet, the time will come, when you start seeing mma guys,start applying and making a real art out active deflections. Once they figureout they need to move past boxing, they will out karate-karate, and out WC-WC.

IF you “out karate, karate” or “out WC, WC” how are theykarate or WC any more?

Darwinism needs to finally apply to the martial arts.

Don’t confuse evolution with improvement because thewords don’t mean the same thing. No one thinks the chicken is an improvementover the tyrannosaurus. Evolution of the martial arts occurs when an art findsits niche and works to become efficient in that area. MMA has found that nichein competition. The skills you learn at an MMA gym are supposed to be thethings that will help you win a fight in the ring better than other skills inother areas. You want to learn how to defend yourself against a bigger more aggressiveperson trying to hurt you instead of beat you? Go to aikido over MMA. Differentarts are meant for different things. Just because a TMA does not meet a needyou think it should does not mean it needs to change. Crocodiles have beenaround for millions of years and birds are relatively new. The crocodile ismade for a different environment than the bird so there is no reason for it toevolve wings and change itself so it can be something it was never meant to be.
I hope that makes as much sense in writing as it does inmy head.

Do you think that run of the millkarate training will prepare someone to deal with a thug mma artist? Which iscommon despite you not thinking they are. I met all kinds of them during mystint in mma. About the only modern art with out the thuggery is BJJ, of courseI could be wrong.

There are demented people in every art MMA, Karate, BJJ,even aikido probably. Poor karate training, or poor aikido training, or TKD, orninjutsu, or whatever is just poor training period. The key here isn’t that aTMA isn’t prepared for such an attacker as you describe, but that many TMA donot have a method to pressure test their skills which is important if anyonewants to have any ability. There isn’t a problem with the arts themselvesrather with the way they are presented and trained by the majority.

Why shouldn't tma change. There is no reason why a art like karate should take5-6 years before you can understand it enough to actually use it in a fight orsituation.. Ill put it to you the way my coach put it. (he had lots of years inkarate as well as catch wrestling and bjj) "I don't judge a martial art bytheir black belts, I judge them based on how well there white belts can defendthem selves."

Different arts have different reasons for theirprogression rates. Some arts have very counter intuitive ideas that need to betrained for years before they become natural enough to rely on in combat.
I don’t understand the reason for judging an art on itsbeginners. Beginners anywhere can’t be compared with one another because thefocus is on different things.

I agree with your sentiment that much of what people cross train for may befound in your karate. Problem is, not many are teaching it very well. Out ofall the dojo I visited, I saw nothing that told me they had advanced beyondbasic understanding. SO sure what you or I may need is found in the system, butthere is a sizeable amount of schools not teaching it in any quality way.

I agree.

There is so much potential in tmafor such awesomeness. Yet so many places train so softly.. Hell its the onlycomplaint I have with Budo Taijutsu. It is no were near the intensity im usedto. Both in speed of the attacks I have to deal with and the pacing of theclass. Thankfully I can supplement my cardio in a good spin class.

With the slow movement during training, I think slower movementshelp one better learn something than speeding it up. You don’t learn to write,drive, or whatever by going fast. You start slow. Now I believe you need tospeed things up and add realistic reactions from partners to test if what youare learning is working for you, but not many TMA do that as far as I am aware.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The 5-6 years comment was born out of the comment I have heard repeatedly here and from various instructors. " you don't really start to learn the real art until black belt". Which is 4-6 years way depending on style. So ya, if your only learning glorified basics, and not really being taught the art, how can you expect to be able to use anything if what your learning is not the real art?

I am curious, If a a complete newbie walked into an MMA gym and began lessons, how long would it take for him to know enough to compete in his first competition?

 

[RTKDCMB]

No one thinks the chicken is an improvement over the tyrannosaurus.

No, but they taste better.

 

[Hanzou]

They didn't just invent them from thin air. They came from other arts like you said people looked through old Judo books or remembered old techniques. Also there were guys still training for ground fighting prior to the 90s my Goju teacher remembers doing some arm bars and wrist locks and chokes back in the 70s
Of course not to the level of BJJ that's not the main focus of "striking" arts. But its there and always been there. I've seen pictures of old Okinawan training legs locks back in the 30s before.

Yeah, i didn't say they invented it, but they cradled it, modified it, advocated for it, and made it better. It's also important to note that a lot of people thought the Gracie's were idiots for focusing so much on ground fighting in the first place. When the Gracie's proved the benefits of ground fighting in the first UFC, they deservedly reaped the rewards. Bjj is now the main source of ground fighting for MMA and other arts who seek to improve their ground fighting.

Your Goju teacher having vague memories of doing locks and holds (which probably came from pre-war Judo) isn't really the same thing. Again, no one was even thinking about ground fighting until the first UFC rolled around and proved just how massive a hole martial arts had dug itself in.


The UFC revolutionized modern martial arts, and it all stemmed from BJJ and competition.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, i didn't say they invented it, but they cradled it, modified it, advocated for it, and made it better. It's also important to note that a lot of people thought the Gracie's were idiots for focusing so much on ground fighting in the first place. When the Gracie's proved the benefits of ground fighting in the first UFC, they deservedly reaped the rewards. Bjj is now the main source of ground fighting for MMA and other arts who seek to improve their ground fighting.

Yet you admit it existed prior to BJJ. You seem to be talking in circles saying there was no ground finghting prior to the early 90's and thats just wrong.

Your Goju teacher having vague memories of doing locks and holds (which probably came from pre-war Judo) isn't really the same thing. Again, no one was even thinking about ground fighting until the first UFC rolled around and proved just how massive a hole martial arts had dug itself in.

How do you know what MY teacher knows and where he learned it. Thats pretty bold of you to tell me something I have first hand knowledge of. Im not sure how many times you can be told almost EVERY Martial art has some grappling and ground fighting including Goju. Where did I say his memories were vague? Do you know him? You are not just trying to argue to argue your not even making sense

The UFC revolutionized modern martial arts, and it all stemmed from BJJ and competition.

NO UFC revolutionized SPORT fighting. The rest of your post is all opinion

 

[jks9199]

Here's an interesting video, just food for thought:


The description starts with: The simple truth is, the bad guys are learning. With the explosive growth of MMA around the world, basic submissions, positions, and fight strategies have never been so familiar to everyday people around the world.

It's an advertisement/promo video for Gracie Combatives. Their program isn't bad, and they've responded well to criticisms about it -- but take videos promoting it with a grain of salt, like you would any other ad. I don't even want to touch the "scenario" 'cause it makes no sense. "Hi, how you doin?" Let's tackle him!

 

[Hanzou]

Yet you admit it existed prior to BJJ. You seem to be talking in circles saying there was no ground finghting prior to the early 90's and thats just wrong.

Where exactly did it exist prior to 1993? Outside of Bjj ground fighting was largely non-existent in the MA world. Again, judo had all but abandoned newaza because of Olympic rules and Other MAs weren't teaching ground fighting in any form whatsoever. So where's the confusion?

How do you know what MY teacher knows and where he learned it. Thats pretty bold of you to tell me something I have first hand knowledge of. Im not sure how many times you can be told almost EVERY Martial art has some grappling and ground fighting including Goju. Where did I say his memories were vague? Do you know him? You are not just trying to argue to argue your not even making sense

I know that your teacher wasn't teaching ground fighting utilizing traditional Okinawan MA. If you wish to prove otherwise please do so. Documentation and photographs would be very useful. Some traditional kata where an Okinawan is rolling around on the ground doing leg locks and arm locks would help a lot.

Again, Newaza was rare in Judo prior to the late 90s, and even at that point they really didn't think it was useful for their goals. So you'll forgive me if I don't believe that your Goju instructor was teaching the lost art of Okinawan ground fighting to his students.

Even if he were, it was the Gracies that pushed ground fighting into the forefront of MA, not TMA instructors finding lost round fighting techniques in their systems. This is why people hire Bjj black belts to teach ground fighting instead of digging through ancient texts to find their art's style of ground fighting (it doesn't help that ground fighting simply doesn't exist in many MA styles).

NO UFC revolutionized SPORT fighting. The rest of your post is all opinion

Which is why traditional MA schools across the country are actively including Bjj and grappling into their curriculums?

 

[Kframe]

I am curious, If a a complete newbie walked into an MMA gym and began lessons, how long would it take for him to know enough to compete in his first competition?

In my neck of the woods, it is about 6 months of consistent training depending on weather or not they have any wrestling in there background and how much they attend class.

 

[SENC-33]

YOU and/or the art you choose to train for self defense purposes is only as good as your ability to effectively translate what you learn to the real world. Statistics don't mean squat. Youtube videos don't mean squat. Who is famous for practicing your chosen style doesn't really mean squat. There isn't a style out there that can't be used for self defense but whatever you choose you must have confidence in it and it SHOULD fit your natural abilities.

The likelihood of you being attacked by a highly trained, skilled fighter is slim. You are more likely to be attacked by a sucker puncher. The greatest fear any person should have is defending against a knife or the potential for multiple threats.

I train combatives instead of TMA with a small group of like minded individuals for one reason only and that is control. I have been around long enough to know that the best training for ME is to take what I know will be effective for ME from every style.

 

[Kframe]

Again, Newaza was rare in Judo prior to the late 90s, and even at that point they really didn't think it was useful for their goals. So you'll forgive me if I don't believe that your Goju instructor was teaching the lost art of Okinawan ground fighting to his students.

Do the Okinawans even have a native ground submission art?