Speaking To The Head Honcho

[PhotonGuy]

Ask the head instructor if...

• Unsure about "something" - gonna have to be more specific what "something" is

Well obviously.

• Unsure about how the dojo is run - I'm going to assume that you mean you try the dojo, and there's something that raises a red flag for you. In this case, bring it up with the head instructor. If there's something that isn't right, he needs to know. If it's his idea, then you need to go. (Alternatively, he may explain why you shouldn't be worried. For example, if you expect to spar starting at white belt, but they start sparring around 6 months in, that's not bad. If they start sparring 5 years in, that's bad.) Alternatively, you can ask the person who gave you the red flag (deal with it one-on-one) or ask the other students/staff if that situation is normal.

The top instructor is always the best person to ask if you're unsure about how the dojo is run as their answer will be the ultimate answer, that's how I see it.

• Requirements for promotion - this depends on how subjective promotion is. At my school, you can ask me the requirements, because they're consistent curriculum items. At other schools, you may need to ask the head coach, because his opinion is the only one that matters. Some schools it's bad manners to ask.

Requirements for promotion would fall under the category of "unsure about how the dojo is run" but if you want to talk about it specifically then it would make sense to list it separately. If you want to earn rank I don't see why there would be anything wrong with asking about requirements. Where you talk earlier about stuff that raises a red flag that could in some cases apply to stuff about rank and promotion, for instance if you haven't been promoted and more than a reasonable amount of time has passed. Lets say it takes you 8 months to be promoted from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. Now, you've been at 1st Kyu for more than a year and you still haven't tested for or been promoted to 1st Dan. At that point you probably should ask about it, assuming you want to be promoted to 1st Dan.

I don't see why it would be bad manners to ask about promotion requirements. Demanding to be promoted would be bad manners not to mention downright disrespectful but asking about promotion requirements is not the same ask demanding to be promoted so I don't see why that would be a problem.

• How a technique is done - in general, ask the closest instructor. You don't want to ask another student, because they may give you wrong information. If you're not sure of what the instructor says, or if different instructors give you different ideas, then go to the head instructor for his opinion.

Even how instructors do techniques can vary, especially considering the fact that instructors are more advanced, when you get to be more advanced you start developing your own style. So as you said, if you're unsure it would be best to ask the top instructor as his answer would be the ultimate.

 

[Rusty B]

Most dojos or martial arts schools in general are independently owned and run. Even if they do teach a common style such as Tae Kwon Do, or in your example Silat, they don't belong to some bigger corporation that "owns" the style.

This is true, but misleading. You didn't mention associations.

 

[dvcochran]

@PhotonGuy , there is a lot of knowledge on this forum. Is there a question you would like to share? Maybe someone can help out.

 

[Rusty B]

Even how instructors do techniques can vary, especially considering the fact that instructors are more advanced, when you get to be more advanced you start developing your own style. So as you said, if you're unsure it would be best to ask the top instructor as his answer would be the ultimate.

If the other instructors were going to steer you wrong or otherwise deviate from what the head honcho teaches, the head honcho would not have made them instructors in the first place.

Seeking out the head honcho because you do not trust the other instructors is definitely bad manners.

 

[Flying Crane]

If the other instructors were going to steer you wrong or otherwise deviate from what the head honcho teaches, the head honcho would not have made them instructors in the first place.

Seeking out the head honcho because you do not trust the other instructors is definitely bad manners.

As far as being bad manners, I would say that just depends on the culture of the particular school.

 

[Rusty B]

As far as being bad manners, I would say that just depends on the culture of the particular school.

In this particular case, he's expressing a distrust in the instructors that were placed by the head instructor. I just can't see anyone thinking this is a good thing.

I have instructors - who clearly know "how" to do something - second-guess themselves while they were teaching it. And they have no problem stopping what they're doing, and asking another instructor OR even the head instructor himself, if he happens to be on the mat. To me, all is right with the world when they do this. If they have any doubt in anything, they address it immediately in order to make sure that the students are receiving the correct instruction.

The only time I ever ask the head instructor questions on anything is if he's the one teaching me at the moment; or, questions pertaining to things "off the mat." And when it comes to questions on things "off the mat," nine times out of ten, our shihan dai can answer them; so I still don't need to go the head instructor for much.

 

[Flying Crane]

In this particular case, he's expressing a distrust in the instructors that were placed by the head instructor. I just can't see anyone thinking this is a good thing.

I have instructors - who clearly know "how" to do something - second-guess themselves while they were teaching it. And they have no problem stopping what they're doing, and asking another instructor OR even the head instructor himself, if he happens to be on the mat. To me, all is right with the world when they do this. If they have any doubt in anything, they address it immediately in order to make sure that the students are receiving the correct instruction.

The only time I ever ask the head instructor questions on anything is if he's the one teaching me at the moment; or, questions pertaining to things "off the mat." And when it comes to questions on things "off the mat," nine times out of ten, our shihan dai can answer them; so I still don't need to go the head instructor for much.

I think this makes my point: it depends on the culture of the school.

 

[Rusty B]

I think this makes my point: it depends on the culture of the school.

Seems equal to third grader asking the principal if 1 divided by 1 is really 1, because he didn't believe his teacher. I'm sure that the principal will answer it without raising a stink about it, but even the other third graders will look at that kid and question what's wrong with him.

 

[Flying Crane]

Seems equal to third grader asking the principal if 1 divided by 1 is really 1, because he didn't believe his teacher. I'm sure that the principal will answer it without raising a stink about it, but even the other third graders will look at that kid and question what's wrong with him.

Well no, not at all. Again, we are talking about the differences between school cultures, and I am also sure you understand that not every question in a martial arts schools can be equated with something as rudimentary as one divided by one.

If you have a school with a rigid hierarchy of junior instructors, senior instructors, head instructors and master/owner/head honcho, and there is an expectation that the hierarchy is observed, then it would be considered rude to go straight to the head fellow.

If you have a school with a more intimate relationship between the students and the teacher, without an expectation of observing a strict hierarchy, then it’s not rude to go to the head guy with questions, even if some more senior students (aka and informally “junior instructors” if you will) could answer the questions. This is the kind of school in which I have always trained. In these schools, it has never been considered rude.

My point: I am responding to you comment that it is considered rude to go to the head instructor. My answer: it depends on the culture of the school.

 

[Rusty B]

My point: I am responding to you comment that it is considered rude to go to the head instructor. My answer: it depends on the culture of the school.

Understood, and I'm not disputing that.

However, this...

Even how instructors do techniques can vary, especially considering the fact that instructors are more advanced, when you get to be more advanced you start developing your own style. So as you said, if you're unsure it would be best to ask the top instructor as his answer would be the ultimate.

...throws in a "trust" factor; which wasn't previously discussed that I can recall. It's moreso this right now, than "jumping the chain of command" that I'm focused on right now.

I'm curious as to what these instructors are or are not doing that has @PhotonGuy wanting to go to the head honcho.

 

[Flying Crane]

However, this...



...throws in a "trust" factor; which wasn't previously discussed that I can recall. It's moreso this right now, than "jumping the chain of command" that I'm focused on right now.

I'm curious as to what these instructors are or are not doing that has @PhotonGuy wanting to go to the head honcho.

Good question.

As a beginner, one has no choice but to trust in what they are told by their instructor, whether it be a junior, senior, head, or top guy. A beginner simply has no experience from which to draw, in evaluating the quality of what they are being taught. As experience grows, one can better make that evaluation. And then there is the issue of what is considered “correct” by one system compared to another.

I do think sometimes people are thrown into the roll of Junior Instructor before they are ready, or even if they don’t want it. The expectation is that learning to teach is part of their required development and they will grow into the position and ultimately become a good instructor. I think that isn’t fair to the newly minted JI, nor to those they are then told to teach. Some people don’t want to teach. Some people will never be a good teacher, no matter how much they are mentored or how much teaching experience they get, they just never get the knack for it. Some people may become good teachers, but not until after a period of being a fairly lousy teacher.

In all these cases, those students who learn from them are getting an inferior product in their education. Some of those students are experienced enough to recognize this fact, and may look to a higher authority for a better answer.

I think making a student into an instructor is something that needs to be approached carefully. It can be a disservice to both the new instructor and the other students. I think some schools push it hard because it is ultimately part of their business model and they are working toward expansion and empire-building in their area.

So I can imagine some very real reasons why I would want an answer from the head guy, rather that staying in the hierarchy. But really, if I was having those kinds of concerns I would likely leave the school. When I join a school, it is because I want to train under a certain teacher. If I find that I would need to train under one of his lower level instructors for some years before that opportunity arises, well that isn’t what I signed up for. But that’s how I look at it and likely not how many people look at it. For a lot of people, one school is much the same as another, and as long as someone wearing a dark strip of cloth around their waist is standing at the front of the class, that is all that matters for them.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If the other instructors were going to steer you wrong or otherwise deviate from what the head honcho teaches, the head honcho would not have made them instructors in the first place.

Seeking out the head honcho because you do not trust the other instructors is definitely bad manners.

Trusting the other instructors is different than thinking instructors can't make mistakes. There is nothing wrong with talking to junior instructors but there also shouldn't be anything wrong with talking to the head honcho is what Im saying.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Seems equal to third grader asking the principal if 1 divided by 1 is really 1, because he didn't believe his teacher. I'm sure that the principal will answer it without raising a stink about it, but even the other third graders will look at that kid and question what's wrong with him.

Here's the difference, a principal's job is usually only managerial. Yes there are some principals that might do some teaching but usually they only manage the school without teaching any of the students. The head honcho of a dojo on the other hand often does teach, as a matter of fact they usually do most of the teaching while the assistant instructors just help with supervising the class or in some cases an assistant instructor might teach a student some specific techniques when told to do so by the head instructor.

Sometimes assistant instructors might even lead the class if the head honcho is not available at the time for whatever reason but usually if the head honcho is there at the dojo he will be doing the teaching. So a head honcho in a dojo usually teaches, a principal usually doesn't. Thats the difference.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'm curious as to what these instructors are or are not doing that has @PhotonGuy wanting to go to the head honcho.

I see you joined this forum in November of 2019. I've been here a bit longer than you so you don't know me or my posts from back before you joined. If you did then you might know some of the situations I've been in.

 

[Steve]

If you're a cashier at Walmart, and you have a question, do you go track down one of the Waltons and ask them?

If you're a fry cook at a corporate-owned McDonald's, do you track down the CEO if you have a question?

You gotta follow the chain of command.

That's a huge leap. It's much more like being a fry cook at McDonald's and tracking down the manager for a question, instead of the head cook or someone who's been there a bit longer. And in that situation..sometimes it's easier just asking the guy that's next to you, but it's perfectly fine to do if the question is one that only the manager can answer.

Your comparison would be like if I trained silat and went looking for Dan Inosanto to answer my questions.

Just dipping into this thread for the first time, so maybe this comes up later. But I'm surprised at this initial reaction to the OP. A student in a martial arts school is not an employee. The student is the customer. The school manager is the employee, who is being paid to provide a service. My initial reaction is that, three posts into the thread, you guys have it completely backwards.

 

[Steve]

but seems remarkably time consuming for all involved.

you are a payibg customer after all, not an employee, you should asked the one thats gives you the correct answer soonest, not have to mess around goibg up the chain of command ( command? its not the fliiong army)

100%.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just dipping into this thread for the first time, so maybe this comes up later. But I'm surprised at this initial reaction to the OP. A student in a martial arts school is not an employee. The student is the customer. The school manager is the employee, who is being paid to provide a service. My initial reaction is that, three posts into the thread, you guys have it completely backwards.

You've already been beaten to that punch.

 

[Rusty B]

Here's the difference, a principal's job is usually only managerial.

That's kind of a stretch. First and foremost, they are educators. Though they may not spend the majority of the day in front a classroom, becoming a principal requires years of experience in doing so.

Yes there are some principals that might do some teaching but usually they only manage the school without teaching any of the students. The head honcho of a dojo on the other hand often does teach, as a matter of fact they usually do most of the teaching while the assistant instructors just help with supervising the class or in some cases an assistant instructor might teach a student some specific techniques when told to do so by the head instructor.

Okay, so here's where my experience may be different. My head instructor is not only the head instructor for our dojo, but he also has more than one location... and he's also the head of an association of dojos with members in four countries. Now I'm not sure if there's a lot of day-to-day work in the latter part... but I do know that, in managing the dojo, there is. There are days where he's not out on the mat, because he's in the office doing whatever it is that he does.

Maybe it's different in a dojo where the head instructor only has one dojo to manage.

Sometimes assistant instructors might even lead the class if the head honcho is not available at the time for whatever reason but usually if the head honcho is there at the dojo he will be doing the teaching. So a head honcho in a dojo usually teaches, a principal usually doesn't. Thats the difference.

Right, but bear mind that the dojo has to be running in order for students to be taught, so the head honcho is going to have responsibilities that will take them off the mat.

 

[Steve]

Okay, let's say you're at Home Depot - or, what are the UK equivalent? I believe you have Home Base and B&Q.

Either way, lets say you're there, and you're trying to find a particular socket of a certain size and drive, and you're having trouble. The guy stocking the shelves notices you, and approaches you to ask if he can help you find anything.

Do you decline his offer to help, because he's not the store manager?

This really is apples to oranges. First of all, you're talking about a single, point of sale relationship when you go into a retail store. This isn't the same kind of relationship you would have with a business providing a service. That said, if the questions you have are similar in nature to what was outlined in the OP, then a sales associate isn't going to be able to help you.

But if you are a member of a gym, and have questions about the structure of the gym, promotion criteria (if they have any), etc, you're paying for a service. The gym owner is working for you.

To be clear, the business may give zero squats about your business, and so you may not get what you ask for. But it would at least give you a good indication that you should take your money elsewhere. Outside of legal advocacy, it's really up to you to demand the quality of service you expect.

 

[Steve]

You've already been beaten to that punch.

I saw it. Jobo, of all people, is the voice of reason!