Sparring someone with their knee up :)

[Fall of Titan]

Suppose someone inexperienced (like me) is point-sparring against someone more experienced with good flexibility and strong balance. They hold their lead knee up high and are able to use it both defensively to keep you away and offensively to throw a side kick or roundhouse. How does one get around that and actually have a chance at scoring?

Thanks,

 

[Earl Weiss]

If your rule set only allows contact above the waist you have to find out if that rule set allows contact to any portion of the leg while it is above the waist. If so, you can target the leg with a technique that upsets the opponents balance and then follow up.. You can also try different "Feints" to draw the kick and then : A. Follow the leg retraction with your attack, or B. Block their kick with sufficient power to disturb their balance and follow up with an attack.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are literally hundreds of ways. Which ones you can use depends entirely upon the ruleset you're sparring under.
Attack the leg.
Trap the leg and use it as a lever to unbalance them.
Trap the leg and sweep the supporting leg.
Move inside the leg, place your lead leg behind their supporting leg and give them a little push.
Move inside the leg and strike with the hand technique of your choice.
Deflect their kick so you can move behind them and take their back. Rear Naked Choke anyone?

 

[skribs]

I know that WT is addressing this by simply making it against the rules to do so. There are penalties for bringing your knee up too many times or for too long without kicking, for doing too many kicks without putting your foot down, and for taking too many hops while on one foot.

There are literally hundreds of ways. Which ones you can use depends entirely upon the ruleset you're sparring under.
Attack the leg.
Trap the leg and use it as a lever to unbalance them.
Trap the leg and sweep the supporting leg.
Move inside the leg, place your lead leg behind their supporting leg and give them a little push.
Move inside the leg and strike with the hand technique of your choice.
Deflect their kick so you can move behind them and take their back. Rear Naked Choke anyone?

Most of these are not allowed in most instances of Taekwondo point sparring (or most point-based sparring systems).

The two I highlighted in bold are. However, you also run the risk of them simply scoring on you while you try to move inside. This is a great risk because they're already chambered to strike, and at this point just need to flick their foot out. If their check kick game is on point, this is going to be incredibly difficult.

This is a big reason why I'm in favor of height classes over weight classes for point-based arts. I feel the longer teep range is much more advantageous than extra bulk.

If your rule set only allows contact above the waist you have to find out if that rule set allows contact to any portion of the leg while it is above the waist. If so, you can target the leg with a technique that upsets the opponents balance and then follow up.. You can also try different "Feints" to draw the kick and then : A. Follow the leg retraction with your attack, or B. Block their kick with sufficient power to disturb their balance and follow up with an attack.

Often I find in cases like this, even if it's against the rules to attack the leg, if you can make it look like you were trying to attack the body, but their leg happened to be in the way, you can get away with it. Otherwise there would be penalties every time two Taekwondoists kicked at the same time and knocked knees or knocked shins.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Often I find in cases like this, even if it's against the rules to attack the leg, if you can make it look like you were trying to attack the body, but their leg happened to be in the way, you can get away with it. Otherwise there would be penalties every time two Taekwondoists kicked at the same time and knocked knees or knocked shins.

So you advocate cheating. Got it.
Did your master not teach you the 5 tenets of Tae Kwon Do?
Did your parents not teach you about honesty and integrity?
Did no coach ever mention sportsmanship?
If you ever open a school, do you intend to teach your students to cheat?
Cheating is bad.

 

[skribs]

So you advocate cheating. Got it.

On the one hand, I am not advocating for cheating. I am advocating for taking advantage of areas of the rules that are treated as gray areas. Your opponent can do the same, and if so, they wouldn't get a penalty either.

Another example is in a case where the rules are that it is illegal to push an opponent. If you get engaged in the clinch, you can pivot away with the right foot, which pivots your left side into them. And yes, your opponent can capitalize on this as well.

Now for the other hand: it's incredibly rich that you suggest a bunch of techniques that are generally illegal in TKD (I know they're legal in your school, but your school is so far removed from the vast majority of TKD schools). It is blatantly illegal in most cases to RNC someone. It is much less illegal that you kick a body level kick and your opponent's leg happens to be there.

Did your master not teach you the 5 tenets of Tae Kwon Do?

My Master did teach us those things, but not rote as many other schools do. Again, another thing where you're projecting your own training onto others, and then deriding them for it.

Did your parents not teach you about honesty and integrity?

I've found you to be among the most dishonest and disrespectful folks on this forum. I will not be lectured by you on any virtue.

Did no coach ever mention sportsmanship?

Did you never teach gamesmanship?

Cheating is bad.

Yes, but I never advocated for cheating. I advocated for playing within the rules, but as close to the line as possible.

 

[Fall of Titan]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the very limited rules in this particular case. Only hits below the neck and above the waist were allowed, and only kicks *near* the head were allowed but not contact to the head. No hits to the legs, back, or face. And no safety gear was worn for this particular exercise.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the very limited rules in this particular case. Only hits below the neck and above the waist were allowed, and only kicks *near* the head were allowed but not contact to the head. No hits to the legs, back, or face. And no safety gear was worn for this particular exercise.

Often the easiest response to this is just raise your leg and do the same. Which is one of the reasons that point-sparring with that limited ruleset gets a bad rep.

Alternatively, the best option IMO is to bait the kick, so that you know where they'll kick, and use that knowledge to either avoid and react, or parry and react.

You can also use faints.

Something I found works is what my school called a 'stepping stool kick', not sure what it's called in other styles. Basically you chamber with one leg as if you're going to kick, then use that chamber to jump into a kick with the other leg. They defend the one and get hit with the other. There's not too much force behind it, and if any sort of grappling or sweeps are allowed, it doesn't work well, but had success with a similar ruleset to yours.

Last recommendation is just wait it out. He can't keep his leg up the entire match (probably), so just be defensive, and wait to see when he puts it down to throw your own strike. You'll probably get told off for doing this one though, for being 'passive'.

 

[O'Malley]

So you advocate cheating. Got it.
Did your master not teach you the 5 tenets of Tae Kwon Do?
Did your parents not teach you about honesty and integrity?
Did no coach ever mention sportsmanship?
If you ever open a school, do you intend to teach your students to cheat?
Cheating is bad.

If you ever moderate a forum, is this the kind of "friendly exchange" you want to promote?

Chill out.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the very limited rules in this particular case. Only hits below the neck and above the waist were allowed, and only kicks *near* the head were allowed but not contact to the head. No hits to the legs, back, or face. And no safety gear was worn for this particular exercise.

Sounds to me like the guy is using the rules to create a shield for himself. He may as well duck behind a chair or something. Maybe you could point out how ridiculous he is being by simply walking away from him and refusing to engage until he grows up and stops playing silly games.

Not all sparring is created equal. Some sparring is not helpful.

 

[skribs]

Alternatively, the best option IMO is to bait the kick, so that you know where they'll kick, and use that knowledge to either avoid and react, or parry and react.

You can also use faints.

This is tough, because in modern TKD sparring, folks just leave the leg up. So you bait the kick, but it's just a flick. There's a very small window where you can capitalize on it.

Something I found works is what my school called a 'stepping stool kick', not sure what it's called in other styles. Basically you chamber with one leg as if you're going to kick, then use that chamber to jump into a kick with the other leg. They defend the one and get hit with the other. There's not too much force behind it, and if any sort of grappling or sweeps are allowed, it doesn't work well, but had success with a similar ruleset to yours.

This is a kick in Taekwondo. It goes by many different names, so I'm not going to argue semantics. The problem with this is the counter is the same to both a left-leg and right-leg roundhouse kick: check kick or teep with the raised leg. Those usually beat the roundhouse in both speed and range.

Last recommendation is just wait it out. He can't keep his leg up the entire match (probably), so just be defensive, and wait to see when he puts it down to throw your own strike. You'll probably get told off for doing this one though, for being 'passive'.

This is the meta in modern style TKD sparring. I've actually gone an entire round without putting my foot down (as a personal challenge). I'm not a competitive athlete. Those who are competitive under these rules will almost certainly have their foot up whenever you're close to in range.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is tough, because in modern TKD sparring, folks just leave the leg up. So you bait the kick, but it's just a flick. There's a very small window where you can capitalize on it.

This is a kick in Taekwondo. It goes by many different names, so I'm not going to argue semantics. The problem with this is the counter is the same to both a left-leg and right-leg roundhouse kick: check kick or teep with the raised leg. Those usually beat the roundhouse in both speed and range.

This is the meta in modern style TKD sparring. I've actually gone an entire round without putting my foot down (as a personal challenge). I'm not a competitive athlete. Those who are competitive under these rules will almost certainly have their foot up whenever you're close to in range.

I don't disagree with any of this (beyond the last-I'm not familiar enough with what happens to agree or disagree). But the window is still there, and if you don't want to hold your own leg up the entire time (which was my first recommendation), that's the best option.

Regarding the kick-of-many-names, I should've clarified. It won't work every time, only if you use it as a surprise, where they don't respond quickly enough to it, or respond wrongly because they're not expecting it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sounds to me like the guy is using the rules to create a shield for himself. He may as well duck behind a chair or something. Maybe you could point out how ridiculous he is being by simply walking away from him and refusing to engage until he grows up and stops playing silly games.

Not all sparring is created equal. Some sparring is not helpful.

It all depends on OP's purpose. If he's wanting to compete in TKD, then the sparring is very helpful. If he wants to learn how to defend himself, not only is it not helpful, it may be harmful.

 

[skribs]

It all depends on OP's purpose. If he's wanting to compete in TKD, then the sparring is very helpful. If he wants to learn how to defend himself, not only is it not helpful, it may be harmful.

Even point sparring is useful. You learn how to manage range and distance and read an opponent.

Is it a perfect simulation of a fight? No. But boxers don't deal with kicks or take-downs, so there's always some level of unrealism in any sparring session.

The nice thing about TKD and Karate point sparring is generally head contact is much more limited, so there's less repetitive brain impacts.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Even point sparring is useful. You learn how to manage range and distance and read an opponent.

Is it a perfect simulation of a fight? No. But boxers don't deal with kicks or take-downs, so there's always some level of unrealism in any sparring session.

The nice thing about TKD and Karate point sparring is generally head contact is much more limited, so there's less repetitive brain impacts.

It can be useful. In my opinion, it's much more likely to be harmful, particularly at a competitive level.

I know this is something we will not agree on though, nor convince each other of, so don't want to derail OP's thread away from practical advice.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the very limited rules in this particular case. Only hits below the neck and above the waist were allowed, and only kicks *near* the head were allowed but not contact to the head. No hits to the legs, back, or face. And no safety gear was worn for this particular exercise.

Can you axe kick the top of the knee if it is at waist hight?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Suppose someone inexperienced (like me) is point-sparring against someone more experienced with good flexibility and strong balance. They hold their lead knee up high and are able to use it both defensively to keep you away and offensively to throw a side kick or roundhouse. How does one get around that and actually have a chance at scoring?

Thanks,

In MA, there are many techniques that can be used to counter itself. If your opponent raises his knee, you can also raise your knee, and jam your leading leg against his leading leg.

To use your leading leg to control your opponent's leading leg is a very important skill in both striking art and wrestling art. You take your opponent's kicking ability and leg skill away. It gives you a safe way to enter.

 

[skribs]

In MA, there are many techniques that can be used to counter itself. If your opponent raises his knee, you can also raise your knee, and jam your leading leg against his leading leg.

To use your leading leg to control your opponent's leading leg is a very important skill in both striking art and wrestling art. You take your opponent's kicking ability and leg skill away. It gives you a safe way to enter.

Not only is the technique you're describing not useful in Taekwondo point sparring, the videos don't even match the technique you describe.

 

[skribs]

Can you axe kick the top of the knee if it is at waist hight?

Below the waist meaning groin, hips, legs, etc., not literally below the waist.

 

[Raistlin]

Some great suggestions above. Another strategy is to start circling towards their back side. Don't move so fast that they can't keep up. Ideally, you get them leading you in the pace when circling. Pick your time and quickly switch directions to their front side and you can get past their leg.