Some reflections on TaeKwonDo sparring that highlights why it has poor transitional success

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When it comes to cross-overs, I think it's safe to say that TaeKwonDo training has the worst reputation among the striking arts. If someone were to only examine the techniques of the various styles, you would be dumbfounded as to why it wouldn't serve as an equally good base.

However the devil is in the details....

One of the things I noticed early on in my TKD training and, which is supported by lots of footage elsewhere is that unlike other disciplines like traditional Karate (or Kyokushin Karate) or Boxing, or Muay Thai, TaeKwonDo free sparring has techniques used in there mainly for show-offs. That is to say, kicking flashyiness which would otherwise get undermined and punished get's a free pass, and students continually seek to improve this aspect of their kicking and let each other take turns. This results in large parts of the combative element of sparring getting lost. This is a major issue transitioning because real fighting is dirty, not pretty, and real fighting tends to have a minority of flashyiness in there. There just isn't time for that and it may prove counterproductive.

So what happens then when a student goes outside of TaeKwondo and wants to test his metal? He right away finds himself in combative environment that he simply did not train for. He gets rushed, the timing is off and he might even get ambushed by boxing.

So one of the ways that TaeKwondo schools can seek to midigate this inherent weakness is to emphasis more combat, and less flashyiness. Let the students do the spins and aerials on the mitts but stick to basics in sparring. Don't encourage performance martial arts in the sparring! If the student has found himself to possess great timing for flashy moves, then by all means do them, but don't waste time kicking air against a cooperative partner!

These are my views and observations that I feel is pretty much uniquely tied to TaeKwonDo in it's quest to fundamentally distinguish itself from Karate. While this has been accomplished, it came at a price.

For those appealing to the watered down route.. Here's TaeKwonDo in the 80s under one of the original masters. The sparring session there is more or less a waste of time for any realistic fighting format, and it's very tiring to see this over and over again.


Edit: by flashy moves I refer to spinning or aerial techniques.
 
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Earl Weiss

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Once again, you have made a rash generalization based on limited observation. Understandable but erroneous. Understandable because many have the erroneous impression since they have mostly seen WT sparring. I have numerous students decide to cross train in Kick Boxing, Muay Thai etc. and the typical result is the coaches often make comments like. "We did not know TKD people used their hands like that." Or we did not know TKD people move like that. " One of the surprises is "You switch Sides?" For any number of reasons our sparring has been very much like Kickboxing.
 
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Once again, you have made a rash generalization based on limited observation. Understandable but erroneous. Understandable because many have the erroneous impression since they have mostly seen WT sparring. I have numerous students decide to cross train in Kick Boxing, Muay Thai etc. and the typical result is the coaches often make comments like. "We did not know TKD people used their hands like that." Or we did not know TKD people move like that. " One of the surprises is "You switch Sides?" For any number of reasons our sparring has been very much like Kickboxing.

I'm ITF
 
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Yes, we all know. Yet you keep making these very generalized post. It makes it hard to understand what you point is most of the time.

Because it applies to either one.
 

Ivan

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When it comes to cross-overs, I think it's safe to say that TaeKwonDo training has the worst reputation among the striking arts. If someone were to only examine the techniques of the various styles, you would be dumbfounded as to why it wouldn't serve as an equally good base.

However the devil is in the details....

One of the things I noticed early on in my TKD training and, which is supported by lots of footage elsewhere is that unlike other disciplines like traditional Karate (or Kyokushin Karate) or Boxing, or Muay Thai, TaeKwonDo free sparring has techniques used in there mainly for show-offs. That is to say, kicking flashyiness which would otherwise get undermined and punished get's a free pass, and students continually seek to improve this aspect of their kicking and let each other take turns. This results in large parts of the combative element of sparring getting lost. This is a major issue transitioning because real fighting is dirty, not pretty, and real fighting tends to have a minority of flashyiness in there. There just isn't time for that and it may prove counterproductive.

So what happens then when a student goes outside of TaeKwondo and wants to test his metal? He right away finds himself in combative environment that he simply did not train for. He gets rushed, the timing is off and he might even get ambushed by boxing.

So one of the ways that TaeKwondo schools can seek to midigate this inherent weakness is to emphasis more combat, and less flashyiness. Let the students do the spins and aerials on the mitts but stick to basics in sparring. Don't encourage performance martial arts in the sparring! If the student has found himself to possess great timing for flashy moves, then by all means do them, but don't waste time kicking air against a cooperative partner!

These are my views and observations that I feel is pretty much uniquely tied to TaeKwonDo in it's quest to fundamentally distinguish itself from Karate. While this has been accomplished, it came at a price.

For those appealing to the watered down route.. Here's TaeKwonDo in the 80s under one of the original masters. The sparring session there is more or less a waste of time for any realistic fighting format, and it's very tiring to see this over and over again.


Edit: by flashy moves I refer to spinning or aerial techniques.
This is the most general analysis I have read about any martial art. Every technique has its use regardless of how "flashy" it is, it just depends on the person. One practitioner might prefer a normal spinning side kick as a counter because he finds it easier to keep his balance when executing it, but another might prefer the flashier jumping variant as it's faster and can hit towards to the solar plexus a bit easier.

For starters, you have not even attempted to mention the different styles of TKD here, ITF and WTF. WTF tends to be more for sport and less inclined for street combat, but ITF is a monstrosity of its own. I train in ITF TKF and have done so consistently for 2-3 years now, for 2 sessions weekly. It is an extremely rare occasion for us not to spar in the session.

The sparring is hard too, you and your opponent decide how hard you wish to spar then you duke it out. There are some rules such as no elbows or hits below the belt, but I would say it's considerably good preparation. Moreover, I doubt you have ever even sparred anyone who trains properly in ITF taekwondo. Regardless of the flashyness of the techniques, they can all be applied if done quickly enough. I personally had the honour to spar a 3rd/4th Dan TKD practitioner who had been involved for over 20 years in the art if I am not mistaken. He mopped the floor with me and then proceeded to dry it too. He would raise his leg and kick me three times before I could even see what was going on. Do I think his kicks were flashy? Absolutely. That didn't stop him from prying my headgear cleaning off with a spinning hook kick.

Lastly, you haven't considered the central philosophy in terms of how these techniques would be applied. The entirety of taekwondo revolves around training your legs to be just as fast as your hands, given that your legs are naturally more powerful. It's why some curriculums of taekwondo include blocking punches with crescent kicks.
 
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This is the most general analysis I have read about any martial art. Every technique has its use regardless of how "flashy" it is, it just depends on the person. One practitioner might prefer a normal spinning side kick as a counter because he finds it easier to keep his balance when executing it, but another might prefer the flashier jumping variant as it's faster and can hit towards to the solar plexus a bit easier.

For starters, you have not even attempted to mention the different styles of TKD here, ITF and WTF. WTF tends to be more for sport and less inclined for street combat, but ITF is a monstrosity of its own. I train in ITF TKF and have done so consistently for 2-3 years now, for 2 sessions weekly. It is an extremely rare occasion for us not to spar in the session.

The sparring is hard too, you and your opponent decide how hard you wish to spar then you duke it out. There are some rules such as no elbows or hits below the belt, but I would say it's considerably good preparation. Moreover, I doubt you have ever even sparred anyone who trains properly in ITF taekwondo. Regardless of the flashyness of the techniques, they can all be applied if done quickly enough. I personally had the honour to spar a 3rd/4th Dan TKD practitioner who had been involved for over 20 years in the art if I am not mistaken. He mopped the floor with me and then proceeded to dry it too. He would raise his leg and kick me three times before I could even see what was going on. Do I think his kicks were flashy? Absolutely. That didn't stop him from prying my headgear cleaning off with a spinning hook kick.

Lastly, you haven't considered the central philosophy in terms of how these techniques would be applied. The entirety of taekwondo revolves around training your legs to be just as fast as your hands, given that your legs are naturally more powerful. It's why some curriculums of taekwondo include blocking punches with crescent kicks.

I have sparred a bronze medalist in ITF who moved over to Muay Thai, which he competed in for 15 years, then back to ITF when he stopped fighting. He plainly admitted that what he learned in ITF did not work in a full contact setting, and that he had a harder time "unlearning" TKD than his green belt friend who didn't know as much.
 

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I have sparred a bronze medalist in ITF who moved over to Muay Thai, which he competed in for 15 years, then back to ITF when he stopped fighting. He plainly admitted that what he learned in ITF did not work in a full contact setting, and that he had a harder time "unlearning" TKD than his green belt friend who didn't know as much.
So what you're telling me is that different martial arts styles work better for different people? Who would have thought.
 
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So what you're telling me is that different martial arts styles work better for different people? Who would have thought.

Taekwondo seemed to work well for him, when he did TKD. Or Bronze medal isn't good enough?
 

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Taekwondo seemed to work well for him, when he did TKD. Or Bronze medal isn't good enough?
If it worked well enough for him, and for others, your entire post kind of falls apart.
 

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When it comes to cross-overs, I think it's safe to say that TaeKwonDo training has the worst reputation among the striking arts. If someone were to only examine the techniques of the various styles, you would be dumbfounded as to why it wouldn't serve as an equally good base.

However the devil is in the details....

One of the things I noticed early on in my TKD training and, which is supported by lots of footage elsewhere is that unlike other disciplines like traditional Karate (or Kyokushin Karate) or Boxing, or Muay Thai, TaeKwonDo free sparring has techniques used in there mainly for show-offs. That is to say, kicking flashyiness which would otherwise get undermined and punished get's a free pass, and students continually seek to improve this aspect of their kicking and let each other take turns. This results in large parts of the combative element of sparring getting lost. This is a major issue transitioning because real fighting is dirty, not pretty, and real fighting tends to have a minority of flashyiness in there. There just isn't time for that and it may prove counterproductive.

So what happens then when a student goes outside of TaeKwondo and wants to test his metal? He right away finds himself in combative environment that he simply did not train for. He gets rushed, the timing is off and he might even get ambushed by boxing.

So one of the ways that TaeKwondo schools can seek to midigate this inherent weakness is to emphasis more combat, and less flashyiness. Let the students do the spins and aerials on the mitts but stick to basics in sparring. Don't encourage performance martial arts in the sparring! If the student has found himself to possess great timing for flashy moves, then by all means do them, but don't waste time kicking air against a cooperative partner!

These are my views and observations that I feel is pretty much uniquely tied to TaeKwonDo in it's quest to fundamentally distinguish itself from Karate. While this has been accomplished, it came at a price.

For those appealing to the watered down route.. Here's TaeKwonDo in the 80s under one of the original masters. The sparring session there is more or less a waste of time for any realistic fighting format, and it's very tiring to see this over and over again.


Edit: by flashy moves I refer to spinning or aerial techniques.

Hee sure was a fancy kicker. Couldn't fight for squat, though. Interestingly enough, some of his students could.

But, why are you training in an art that you have no respect for?
 
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If it worked well enough for him, and for others, your entire post kind of falls apart.

I just wrote that It didn't work for well for him outside of TaeKwonDo competitions, despite winning world championship bronze.
 
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How do you know Hee couldn't fight for squat?
 

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You would have to be more specific than that. I'm suprised that General Choi would have a guy who can't fight on his demo team.

A demo team is just that. It's for demos. Has nothing whatsoever to do with fighting.
 
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A demo team is just that. It's for demos. Has nothing whatsoever to do with fighting.

They took on all challengers after the demo was completed under orders of General Choi. Anyway, how specifically do you know that he was a poor fighter? He never said anything about that in his interviews that I've read.
 

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