So, What do you think?

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kirk
Yes, you have, and you're an ***. I won't name names, that's
more YOUR style, but no one believes you're the bad *** you
claim to be. Many who've seen you in action. Stick it where the
sun don't shine.

No I have not. You may think I have but you're a lot like me in that you just want to hear what you want to hear.

Never said I was a bad @ss. But if u don't want to name names then you're just pissing in the wind.

Call me when your temper tantrum wears off.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys, play nice or take it to PM please.

Thank you.
:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:

I'm also laughing because Kenpoists are pointing fingers and laughing at this guy yet he's one of yours.

That's funny, because he's not one of mine. LOL! I can laugh at him, just like I can laugh at any other human being. Hell, you're probably going to tell me that it's not right to laugh at monkeys throwing poo in the zoo, because they have opposable thumbs just like you. :shrug:

Originally Posted By Gou Ronin:

I am laughing. For different reasons though. I proved Spry is a scam artist and I told you how.

Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:

Yes I am bitter. Not at Spry though. He was up front about what he offered and always fufilled his business obligations.

Wow, that says alot. The Guy is a scam artist, and he made good on his promises at the same time. How could you call him a scam artist then?

Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:

How can anyone take Kenpo seriously? I can send a tape or even less and get rank in it by next week that outranks most people.

I would venture to say that it depends on who you are, and who you train with. There are many Kenpo Associations that have good standards. The few that offer video testing don't set the bar for the rest of us. :asian:

Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:

You take your Kenpo seriously. The problem is that Kenpo doesn't take rank seriously.

I know that I take Kenpo seriously (thanks)... But weather or not I am taken seriously as a brown belt is really relative to the associations I am affiliated with, not the community at large. Different associations have different criteria for rank. (Some like money, others want hard work, I think you have a good idea as to who I cruise with.)

Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:

I have had it up to my eyes with Kenpo politics. They're a joke and it makes a good art look bad and get bad.

I've had it with the politcal crap too, but the System itself is a good system regardless of weather or not someone whom practices it (in anyway shape or form that they do) is a turd.

Hell, I don't like George Bush... but does that mean I hate all Americans for his short comings? Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree with people and move on.

Hopefully someone out there in Kenpo Land will straighten things out. Maybe it will take some deaths within the ranks of the current seniors before most of us can come together again (unfortunate, because it would be nice for change to happen with those who are with us today).

Sincerely,
Billy

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear


I know that I take Kenpo seriously (thanks)... But weather or not I am taken seriously as a brown belt is really relative to the associations I am affiliated with, not the community at large. Different associations have different criteria for rank. (Some like money, others want hard work, I think you have a good idea as to who I cruise with.)

I've had it with the politcal crap too, but the System itself is a good system regardless of weather or not someone whom practices it (in anyway shape or form that they do) is a turd.

Hell, I don't like George Bush... but does that mean I hate all Americans for his short comings? Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree with people and move on.

Hopefully someone out there in Kenpo Land will straighten things out. Maybe it will take some deaths within the ranks of the current seniors before most of us can come together again (unfortunate, because it would be nice for change to happen with those who are with us today).

Sincerely,
Billy

Good points Mr Lear.....are you the one in the prophecy who will bring balance to the force?!?!? Somebody needs too LOL

I have talked to a few buddies in other arts. We arent the only art with problems, not by a long shot! People argue lineage, history, who is who, and who can't go where.
The stories I have heard make Kenpo ones seem like Dr Sues to be honest. We have a lot of infighting but hey it means people are passionate about our art.
I dont have the answers but I definately don not think we are the worst of the martial arts politics and fighting!
We in kenpo do all share one thing...a damned good effective art even in its various versions and lineage!

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
We in kenpo do all share one thing...a damned good effective art even in its various versions and lineage!

HERE ....... HERE....

Now that makes sense.

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
That's funny, because he's not one of mine. LOL! I can laugh at him, just like I can laugh at any other human being. Hell, you're probably going to tell me that it's not right to laugh at monkeys throwing poo in the zoo, because they have opposable thumbs just like you. :shrug:

Monkeys don't claim to represent the human race...although sometimes they do a better job. There is a difference and the huge jump in the two you made doesn't connect.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Wow, that says alot. The Guy is a scam artist, and he made good on his promises at the same time. How could you call him a scam artist then?

It does say a lot. When a guy who is openly catting for money is more reliable than most associations when it comes to business.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
I would venture to say that it depends on who you are, and who you train with. There are many Kenpo Associations that have good standards. The few that offer video testing don't set the bar for the rest of us. :asian:

And I would say that it is the other way around and that the few good associations out there do not set the bar for the many bad ones.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
I've had it with the politcal crap too, but the System itself is a good system regardless of weather or not someone whom practices it (in anyway shape or form that they do) is a turd.

I have never said that Kenpo is a bad system. Ever. That is something that people have tried to make it seem like I said because they have weak pathetic arguments and try to set me up like a straw man they hope to knock down because they have nothing else to rely on.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Hell, I don't like George Bush... but does that mean I hate all Americans for his short comings? Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree with people and move on.

Uh huh. I jut wanted to point out that it seems only sharks and Kenpoists eat their own. The only difference is that Kenpoists do it behind their backs. Although not all of them do.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Hopefully someone out there in Kenpo Land will straighten things out. Maybe it will take some deaths within the ranks of the current seniors before most of us can come together again (unfortunate, because it would be nice for change to happen with those who are with us today).

I don't want to see anyone die. Well, maybe my ex-girlfriend...(dreaming off into space) I'd love for someone to pull it all together but how can someone expect it to happen when the people running the show are setting the example they do? Of course people who follow them will be the same.

 

[WilliamTLear]

The analogy of the monkey was put there to illustrate just exactly how close I feel to Steve Spry and his super guy material. I don't like him, and can do nothing about him and his video training program. In other words, he is responsible for what he does, and Kenpo isn't.

You're expereince in Kenpo is predicated by the fact that you live in Canada. I know that it must be hard to find descent instruction up there (or an instructor that YOU can get along with), but what do you expect when you join these various associations. Do you honestly think anyone wants to finance sending an instructor to Canada just for you? Come on.

Originally Posted By Gou Ronin:

And I would say that it is the other way around and that the few good associations out there do not set the bar for the many bad ones.

I think you're trying to assign blame for your bad expereinces. Why stop with the people that screwed you? That would be pretty close to admitting personal guilt. You got taken the first time (not your fault), and then subjected yourself to the rest of your bad expereinces with other associations (looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me). But, why stop with the bad guys... Your super hero that is nesting within one of the good associations hasn't bothered to save you yet... THAT'S IT!!! IT'S HIS FAULT!!!

EVEN BETTER... IT'S TAE KWON DO'S FAULT!!! THEY ARE, INFACT, THE POOR EXAMPLE THAT KENPO IS FOLLOWING INTO THE GUTTER, AREN'T THEY?

In closing... You're not a bad guy Doug. You and I, in a very odd way, have alot in common. The difference between us is simple, I blame the guy who screwed me in the first place, you hold the whole damn world responsible. Let's move on, please?

 

[Seig]

a lot of charlatans, frauds and downright idiots out there. But let me ask you one question, did you learn anything kenpo-wise that was valuable from your various assosciations?

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
The analogy of the monkey was put there to illustrate just exactly how close I feel to Steve Spry and his super guy material. I don't like him, and can do nothing about him and his video training program. In other words, he is responsible for what he does, and Kenpo isn't.

I never said that you could do anything about it. I was merely pointing out that everyone is pointing at this guy and laughing but that he's an indicator of the things wrong with the politics of the art. That's like pointing to the hole in a boat and laughing at it as the boat goes down. That's when everyone started screaming that their Kenpo was pure and that everyone else was the problem in the art today.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
You're expereince in Kenpo is predicated by the fact that you live in Canada. I know that it must be hard to find descent instruction up there (or an instructor that YOU can get along with), but what do you expect when you join these various associations. Do you honestly think anyone wants to finance sending an instructor to Canada just for you? Come on.

Nope. Not at all. Again, this arguement assumes that no good Kenpo exists anywhere other than in SoCal. (Even though this guy is in the heart of Kenpoland) It has nothing to do with being in Canada or anywhere but that there are greedy people everywhere in Kenpo who will sell you rank in kenpo.

I do not expect to have some guy finance my training. When I join a group I do expect support which is what that orgainization should provide. I do not expect it to be finanical support and I do expect to support that group in return.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
I think you're trying to assign blame for your bad expereinces. Why stop with the people that screwed you? That would be pretty close to admitting personal guilt. You got taken the first time (not your fault), and then subjected yourself to the rest of your bad expereinces with other associations (looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me). But, why stop with the bad guys... Your super hero that is nesting within one of the good associations hasn't bothered to save you yet... THAT'S IT!!! IT'S HIS FAULT!!!

I think you're wrong and trying to set up an argument that has no basis in fact. What a ******** Kenpo cult answer. "It's not our fault. It must be your fault." The last lament of the Kenpo culture when they know they're wrong. Please go look up the concept of the strawman argument.

I admit that whatever part I played in the issue I accept my own actions and the consequences. I'm just not the average guy who is willing to get screwed.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
EVEN BETTER... IT'S TAE KWON DO'S FAULT!!! THEY ARE, INFACT, THE POOR EXAMPLE THAT KENPO IS FOLLOWING INTO THE GUTTER, AREN'T THEY?

Again, cheap attempts to make me feel totally responsible for the politics in Kenpo won't work.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
In closing... You're not a bad guy Doug. You and I, in a very odd way, have alot in common. The difference between us is simple, I blame the guy who screwed me in the first place, you hold the whole damn world responsible. Let's move on, please?

I don't think you're a bad guy either Billy. But you just can't accept that there is something wrong with the politics of your art.

Let's move on shall we?

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Seig
a lot of charlatans, frauds and downright idiots out there. But let me ask you one question, did you learn anything kenpo-wise that was valuable from your various assosciations?

Yes I did. I never let the lesson go to waste and I never forgot what I learned from any of the experiences, both in the way of the art and in the politics. No matter what, I learned something from all of it. I never said it was a waste of time. There was always SOMETHING valuable to take out of it all.


Strange. I never had these problems when I did Judo. Or Boxing, or Systema, or BJJ. Not when I dabbled in Arnis, Pekiti Tersia, or JKD. It was only when I got involved with EPAK.

I guess Billy is right. It MUST be me.

...or not.

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by GouRonin

...
I guess Billy is right. It MUST be me.

...or not.

Nah Doug ... It's YOU! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

 

[GouRonin]

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I'm not that important. However, since in an essay regarding the rank structure by Larry Tatum he describes the 10th degree as a rank that affects the whole course of Kenpo I must therefore conclude that I am possibly one of the grandmasters of the art since I hold sway over everything.

I am not confortable with this since I do not yet have any training videos or certificates to sell for a few grand.

...not to say that they are not in the making...

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by GouRonin
...

since I hold sway over everything.

You gotta quit that swaying Gou, People are starting to talk!!!
:rofl:

Dan

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Sigung86
You gotta quit that swaying Gou, People are starting to talk!!!

They always talk about us Grandmasters.

Listen, Dan, if you're going to hang around me you're going to have to learn to grovel and bow a lot more ok?

Thanx.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by GouRonin
They always talk about us Grandmasters.

Listen, Dan, if you're going to hang around me you're going to have to learn to grovel and bow a lot more ok?

Thanx.

Got a ring to it!
Hurry up and get the videos out!

 

[GouRonin]

I might just give you another stripe or two for that belt if you flatter me enough.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Strange. I never had these problems when I did Judo. Or Boxing, or Systema, or BJJ. Not when I dabbled in Arnis, Pekiti Tersia, or JKD. It was only when I got involved with EPAK.

Yeah, there's not politics whatsoever in BOXING ... why
that's gotta be the one most free from corruption and greed!

It took me one single solitary phone call to get the politics in
Pekiti Tersia. Since you're so fond of names, because they're
the only thing that give validity to arguments (except yours,
because you never mention any, but still insist it's fact), I give
you Gabriel Martinez, of the Pekiti Tirsia PitBulls
who wouldn't teach me, or anyone else the art unless they were
solely affiliated with his school and org. He went into a half hour
rant about how PKI is a bogus organization, and strayed away
from the "true" path of P.K. He said if it's not paying dues to
"GRAND TUHON Leo Tortal Gaje, Jr.", then it's not real P.K.

Saying the politicing and backstabbing doesn't go on in JKD is
just gullibility, deniability, or stupidity.

Systema and BJJ are still the new kids on the block. You can't
even rightfully use these in your arguments, until the almightly
Helio dies, and the same for Vlad. Then just watch. I'll have my
b.b. videos and certs, no prob.

 

[GouRonin]

I think I stated that "I" had no problem. I never said there were no problems. Billy said that the problems I encountered in Kenpo were only me. I countered saying that in any other system I have been working in I have not had any problems and enjoyed working.

I know you want so bad to have this prove that there are problems in every system but that isn't what we're arguing about. I agree that there are problems in every system. But we're talking Kenpo. Not shotokan or anything else. Kenpo.

The attempt to say, "Well other systems have problems too." to deflect the issue at hand isn't dealing with the issue at hand. It is just an attempt to try and point fingers elsewhere to avoid the issue.

Originally posted by Kirk
Yeah, there's not politics whatsoever in BOXING ...why that's gotta be the one most free from corruption and greed!

Never said it wasn't. You're just drooling at the hilt to try and prove me wrong to make yourself feel better. I said when I was working in the art, and boxing is an art, I had no problem. None to the degree I had in Kenpo.

In fact, in Boxing there are few belts. You fight to get one, you fight to keep one.

Originally posted by Kirk
It took me one single solitary phone call to get the politics in
Pekiti Tersia. Since you're so fond of names, because they're
the only thing that give validity to arguments (except yours,
because you never mention any, but still insist it's fact), I give
you Gabriel Martinez, of the Pekiti Tirsia PitBulls
who wouldn't teach me, or anyone else the art unless they were
solely affiliated with his school and org. He went into a half hour
rant about how PKI is a bogus organization, and strayed away
from the "true" path of P.K. He said if it's not paying dues to
"GRAND TUHON Leo Tortal Gaje, Jr.", then it's not real P.K.

Never had any problem attending any seminars or visiting schools to train. None. Zip. Zilch.

Again, I didn't say that other arts did not have problems. Just that I never had any dealing with them. But this must be starting to sound old.

Originally posted by Kirk
Saying the politicing and backstabbing doesn't go on in JKD is
just gullibility, deniability, or stupidity.

Never said it didn't happen. Again, just that I never had any problems working with those in that art. Me. No personal problems. None. Is this getting through to you yet? You seem to have a tough time clicking into the argument. It's not about arts having issues internally. We're talking Kenpo specifically. You seem to have trouble staying with that thought.

Billy said that it must be me that has the problem because it's not Kenpo. I stated that any other art I worked in or at I have not had a problem. I never said they didn't have problems. Just that I had no problem. In Kenpo I did. Therefore it can't just be my sparkling personality. Although I do take that into account.

Um, can I make that clearer?

Originally posted by Kirk
Systema and BJJ are still the new kids on the block. You can't
even rightfully use these in your arguments, until the almightly
Helio dies, and the same for Vlad. Then just watch. I'll have my
b.b. videos and certs, no prob.

Hell, both arts have internal issues and they are no where near as new as you think.

I'm sure you can cert up now with BJJ. Except that when it comes time to prove it on the floor you'll have a tougher time than many styles of karate convincing others.

As for Systema, they don't even have certs.

Both already have videos. However, BJJ has few belts and systema has none at all.

But please, if you want to try and take this thread in another direction then do so. But we're talking about EPAK. It's far too easy to point at other arts and be like a 3rd grader and say, "Well they have troubles too!" to get out of discussing an issue.

Also, I am not the guy not naming names when asked. That bubbles...would be you. I'm not saying, "I know something about you that I heard from some one."

That's ok. You're pissed off at me and you feel the need to hurt me to make yourself feel better even if it has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Doesn't bother me. I understand.

So, to summerize. I said, "It's not just me that has the problem. I have had no problem working in other arts." The topic at hand was EPAK politics.

Sorry to steal your thunder.

 

[Kirk]

You feel like a man now? All posts are free for everyone to read,
and you get to trash kenpo constantly, and imply, however you
see fit that kenpo is so terrible, and these other arts aren't. So
I replied, so that others that might only be reading don't buy into
your b.s. and blaming of others.

You're the one that asked for names when I "found out something
about you". So I provided them. And it was more like discovery.
You like to get online and talk about how awesome you are, and
put down kenpo with every turn. The fact is you're a borderline
midget and are trying to use your intellect to pass yourself off as
a bigger, badder person.

I'm not angry at you, I'm fed up with your superiority complex,
and your dogging on everything I say. I'll take a shot at whatever
belt ya got, Tattoo.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kirk
You feel like a man now?

Felt like a man before.

Originally posted by Kirk
All posts are free for everyone to read,
and you get to trash kenpo constantly, and imply, however you
see fit that kenpo is so terrible, and these other arts aren't. So
I replied, so that others that might only be reading don't buy into
your b.s. and blaming of others.

I have never ever said Kenpo was a bad art. Ever. It's a great art. I have always bashed the politics.

Originally posted by Kirk
You're the one that asked for names when I "found out something about you". So I provided them.

Yep. But it wasn't the issue at hand. You seem to have trouble staying with the issue. The names provided had nothing to do with what you started to talk about.

Originally posted by Kirk
And it was more like discovery.
You like to get online and talk about how awesome you are, and
put down kenpo with every turn.

Just the politics.

Originally posted by Kirk
The fact is you're a borderline
midget and are trying to use your intellect to pass yourself off as
a bigger, badder person.

Uh...I'm 5'8" and a 145 pounds. Does that make you feel better? LOL! This coming from a guy who complains when people make fun of others with weight issues. Wow, I guess since you lack any real argument then you have to resort to name calling. That's kinda funny.

I never claimed I was bad ***. You did that for me. Now you're all cheesed to find out I am not who you pictured in your mind I was?

Originally posted by Kirk
I'm not angry at you.

Yes you are. Anyone who can read these posts can see that. You've been stooping lower and lower for insults for me.

Originally posted by Kirk
I'm fed up with your superiority complex, and your dogging on everything I say.

I like myself. Its no crime. I am only responding to what you type. If you stayed on topic more often I wouldn't have to correct you.

Originally posted by Kirk
I'll take a shot at whatever belt ya got, Tattoo.

You got it.
http://members.tripod.com/~russianmartialart/subclub.html
Shoot me an e-mail and let me know when you're coming Mr. Arbuckle.