SKK form applications

[marlon]

does any one teaching shaolin kempo, teach naihanchi kata? Should we add this to our discussion of skk forms?

Marlon

 

[kidswarrior]

Hope this doesn't seem too off topic, but does anyone else see Pinan elements in this form:

 

[Josh Oakley]

Yes. This looks like tae kwon do, or something like it, and the form you learn first in tae kwon do, and most of its off-shoots, is almost exactly the same as Pinan 1.

 

[Matt]

Hope this doesn't seem too off topic, but does anyone else see Pinan elements in this form:

I do, mainly pinan nidan from the okinawan style, probably because he says in the video description:

Hi folks,

I have mentioned about how I train with a jung bong (short staff) using the patterns Won Hyo Tul and Pyung-Ahn EeDan.

Some people could'int work out how I was doing this? So I have put it here for you now to see what i do with it

There will be a follow on vid next to show some of the applications to go with it!!

enjoy,

Paul.

The Pyung-ahn forms are the Korean (usually old TKD or Tang Soo Do) versions of the Pinans. This is essentially what you would get if you did Pinan Nidan (Heian Nidan for you Shotokan & MSDC people) with a jo.

Click here too see the TSD version of Pyung-ahn ee-dan. The shotokan version, called Heian Nidan looks like this. The okinawan version, Pinan Nidan (formerly Pinan shodan) looks like this.

For SKK, Pinan Nidan was replaced with Nick Cerio's 2 pinan. 4 kata is also loosely based on Pinan Nidan. Pinan Nidan was originally the first in the Pinan I-V series, but the order was changed during the early development of Shotokan, ostensibly by Funakoshi. However in his early book, Karate Jutsu: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi, it was still in the original order.

Matt

 

[DavidCC]

I do, mainly pinan nidan from the okinawan style, probably because he says in the video description:


The Pyung-ahn forms are the Korean (usually old TKD or Tang Soo Do) versions of the Pinans. This is essentially what you would get if you did Pinan Nidan (Heian Nidan for you Shotokan & MSDC people) with a jo.

Click here too see the TSD version of Pyung-ahn ee-dan. The shotokan version, called Heian Nidan looks like this. The okinawan version, Pinan Nidan (formerly Pinan shodan) looks like this.

For SKK, Pinan Nidan was replaced with Nick Cerio's 2 pinan. 4 kata is also loosely based on Pinan Nidan. Pinan Nidan was originally the first in the Pinan I-V series, but the order was changed during the early development of Shotokan, ostensibly by Funakoshi. However in his early book, Karate Jutsu: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi, it was still in the original order.

Matt

nice answer, over-achiever

 

[Matt]

nice answer, over-achiever

I was trying to cut it short at just 'annoying know-it-all' before I reached 'jerk'.:angel:

 

[marlon]

I was trying to cut it short at just 'annoying know-it-all' before I reached 'jerk'.:angel:

 

[JTKenpo]

does any one teaching shaolin kempo, teach naihanchi kata? Should we add this to our discussion of skk forms?

Marlon

Although Naihanchi is without a doubt in our roots I don't think you could call it SKK. But I would love to hear a discussion on it as I do not have this form but have seen it several times performed by Matobu Sensei

 

[DavidCC]

I have an old tape of Oyata performing and demontrating applications from Naihanchi. It is my "secret sauce" for spicing up my kempo, doing stuff my fellow students haven't seen before. Nasty, mean stuff that makes people not want to stand too close to you.

 

[JTKenpo]

Nasty, mean stuff that makes people not want to stand too close to you.

Either that or you haven't read the martialtalk newsletter about wearing deodorant and washing your gi regularly. just kidding

 

[JTKenpo]

Does this bring us to Hansuki?

 

[marlon]

Does this bring us to Hansuki?

i am a little apprehensive about discussing this one...it seems to be a form with much discussion around it..and none of us on MT seem to have the original version, Although i am reasonabley sure that Jesse and Matt and Kenpojoe have at least seen the original. Thart being said i will brave a start: After the beginning series of rapid strikes the bent knee stance with the tigers is a very good surprise takedown. span the head back move into thier center and tiger to the inner thigh (or btwn to be more skk) with a pull from the opposite hand and down they go

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

i am a little apprehensive about discussing this one...it seems to be a form with much discussion around it..and none of us on MT seem to have the original version, Although i am reasonabley sure that Jesse and Matt and Kenpojoe have at least seen the original. Thart being said i will brave a start: After the beginning series of rapid strikes the bent knee stance with the tigers is a very good surprise takedown. span the head back move into thier center and tiger to the inner thigh (or btwn to be more skk) with a pull from the opposite hand and down they go

respectfully,
Marlon

Until recently (within the last five years) I had no idea there were as many "versions" of this form out there as I have now seen. As for the original, well it isn't SKK now is it? Ok before the lynchings start here me out. The original form that Master Chun developed and then brought to Chow for "approval" has been passed down in Chun's direct lineage, but the form and all it's variations that we as SKK practitioners have is Nick Cerios "version" of this form. As to say what he remembered, added, subtracted, replaced, taught and then STOPPED teaching. Ok now that I have said that feel free to lynch me. As for having different versions where better to talk about them then here? We may have different versions but they all have applications right? Well lets hope so anyway.

The app I was taught for the opening move is a two person attack. The rapid fire strikes is to the first person then the close kneel or tigers stance did you call it is a defense against the person to your right, turning the blocking hand into tigers claw to the groin and high check is tigers claw to the face.

Ok I'm going to go duck and cover now.

 

[DavidCC]

Either that or you haven't read the martialtalk newsletter about wearing deodorant and washing your gi regularly. just kidding

LOL

 

[SK101]

I had the front punch to the stomach the entire time myself, then i cracked one of my workout partners to see where they went and their head was right in line to were my original stomach strike was.. side note -- when doing it as a seperate self defense technique i do more of an upward thrust punch to make his head pop back up for the final sweep.
Jesse

Reply to Kata 1 Bunkai -
That makes alot of sense if there folded forward sweeping from their front would make more sense than sweeping from behind. Is your last punch variation like the torque punch Professor I has on his dropping elbow kempo? A kind of rising thrust punch to Solar Plexus or are you saying your hitting the chin in that appl?

 

[SK101]

Next position:
Pivot to 11:00 hands gathered in fist over fist Facing the 9:00 opponent...As he delivers a front kick we step outside the kick doing a crossblock (left hand closest to you) The right grabs the ankle (the left hand stays on the foot applying additional pressure), twist your upper body CW while sliding back drawing the opponent in off balance and turning their back to you, slide in and deliver Iron Butterfly to their spine. Turn on guard to the 12:00 position hands in the overhead cranes protecting position....

What is Iron Butterfly?

 

[SK101]

Next sequence:
Turn into a L/foot forward Cat satnce performing a R/hand cross palm block, Step forward (L/foot) driving L/palm to chin/jaw line, R/front ball kick to midsection....

Reply to Kata 1 -
This technique I have as whipping palm to the left wrist then step out with left palm to heart. Opponent is pushed back so you follow up with a front ball kick to compensate for the extra distance.

 

[SK101]

Seq 2
"Attack is over head club followed by right front kick.
Cross block upward to elbow immediately followed (no chamber) by left low block to parry kick and while attackers foot is still in the air deliver right punch on a downward 45 angle to body (bladder or groin) causing attacker to loose balance."

What happened to the arm with the club in it after you pulled your left away for the low block and your right away for the punch?

clubs are heavy and don't tend to hand in mid-air. swinging a heavy club with intent pulls the weight onto the right foot, so how could I even kick with it?

How about the elbow breaks on the block and instead if a kick you merely turned your torso toward 9:00 making the #8 block a reverse hammer to groin. Opponent folds forward so you deliver a thrust punch to the mastoid.

 

[SK101]

Kata 1 application - Some of these are what were officially given to me by my instructors, others are just some things I picture in my head.

Salutation - Breaking the elbow from an O/H Club attack or X strike to throat as someone attempts a forward bearhug.

Sec 1 - teaches maxization of energy. If your left foot is coming down from a front kick the right straight punch thrown lower than the shoulder has maximum energy since the hips are coming down and falling to the left.

Sec 2 - Attack is Hammer/Left straight punch - X Block high, # 8 block to opponents left elbow, twist opponent, punch to kidney or ribs depending how much they turn

Sec 2 - Attack is attempted forward bear hug - X strike to throat, reverse hammer to groin or solar plexus, back punch to chin(I prefer back punch on this application as groin strike will make them fall forward).

If you are really fast you could hit the nose as the opponent comes forward. Many persons have said they have a sweep after the right front punch, if the person is hit in the nose body mechanics would make sense with a sweep coming from behind. I have never had the sweep, but I like the concept.

Sec 3 - Attack is front ball kick - X Block low, grab leg, swing CW then reverse and throw leg CCW spinning opponent.

2nd option - Instead of throwing leg away continue your CCW spin taking their leg over your head and ripping the groin muscles.

Sec 4 - Right palm pointed forward overhead and left knifehand in front of chest - Shaolin traditional onguard. I have no application for this move I have always taught as a guard we no longer use during sparring.

Sec 5 - Attack is rt. hook punch/left thrust punch - Double knife hand block to wrist and bicep, trap left punch, spear to throat. I don't tend to use this Bunkai. I prefer to think of this section as only the right hook punch as the left is hard for me to visualize blocking with this movement.

Could be used as a Variation of DM 5 double block, palm to jaw, spear to throat. Variation of DM 3 could be defense against left backfist after double blocks left hand grabs opponents left shoulder then spear to neck or back punch to temple if neck is not exposed.

Sec 6 - Attack is left punch - Right whipping palm to wrist, then left palmheel to heart, opponent moves back from heart strike so you throw the right front ball kick

Sec 7 - Spin CCW, block a right or left punch then counter strike with a left back punch.

Sec 8 - Attack is single lapel grab and opponent has right leg forward - Step back with left foot as left hand grabs opponents right wrist, right hammer to bicep then right back fist to temple and right side blade to opponent's left knee. Footwork is altered and cup over saucer is assumed to be the grab and hammer.

 

[SK101]

Last sequence;
Pivot on the R/foot towards the 12:00 position block an incoming R/hand attack; #2 block w/snapping backpunch to the face ( I target the cheekbone ridge under their right eye). Draw up Fist over Fist L/side; Double Dragon strike to the right, draw up on the right FoF on the right and Double Dragon strike to the left...Xblock and end the form......

I like the right cheek bone interpretation that would control the left punch.