SKK Combos and Various Attacks

[marlon]

One thing I picked up from my exposure to SL-4 is it's extreme level of detail. If the written technique is not describing any activity for my left hand, what should it be doing? It can be doing any number of things, which can be classified anywhere ranging from very detrimental to very effective. I prefer the most effective. If the student is left to assume or imagine some activity for the ignored hand, what are the chances they will discover the most effective thing for it to be doing? This is why I always account for all the body parts when teaching or doing techniques

So what do YOU do with your left in #2????

-D

well i do not have that level of written detail nor do i give thatmuch to my students. My thoughts on this matter is NOT to create clones. I am not saying that sl-4 does at all, i am merely explaining my reasons for not going in to the minutae of detail. One of Prof.I's favorite sayings when teaching a form or a technique is..."or" i like this. In anycase every interatcion is a relationship and is dynamic therefore my response / or better yet my leading of the interaction needs be dynamic as well. So with a proper structural base and understanding of movement, alignment, power and opportunity the left hand in #2 may be a positional check; a grab of the opponent a lower body strike as the back 2 knuckle strikes the head up and back the contact of the left hand can guide the positioning of the attacker for the follow up elbow, after the elbow it can defend against a possible kick or an incedental kick as the attacker is taken down; if the person had being striking lefty as you blocked the left hand can provide the counter balance on the offending arm as your back 2 knuckle strike extends from underneath the offending elbow...and on. the point is we do not train with opne arm hanging around our waist or ankles and with it properly positioned much can be done with it.
i really like sl-4 from what i know of it which is little so i naturally teach things differently. With the higher belts i go into an extreme amount of detail about why a technique will work or not and where we can go with it and we often discuss what makes sense ands what is crap, yet i do not set these things in stone, i point out what i see and why and how and hopefully they grow from there asnd may yet come back and teach me things...then i will have donme a good job...imho

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Mark L]

well i do not have that level of written detail nor do i give thatmuch to my students. My thoughts on this matter is NOT to create clones. I am not saying that sl-4 does at all, i am merely explaining my reasons for not going in to the minutae of detail. One of Prof.I's favorite sayings when teaching a form or a technique is..."or" i like this. In anycase every interatcion is a relationship and is dynamic therefore my response / or better yet my leading of the interaction needs be dynamic as well. So with a proper structural base and understanding of movement, alignment, power and opportunity the left hand in #2 may be a positional check; a grab of the opponent a lower body strike as the back 2 knuckle strikes the head up and back the contact of the left hand can guide the positioning of the attacker for the follow up elbow, after the elbow it can defend against a possible kick or an incedental kick as the attacker is taken down; if the person had being striking lefty as you blocked the left hand can provide the counter balance on the offending arm as your back 2 knuckle strike extends from underneath the offending elbow...and on. the point is we do not train with opne arm hanging around our waist or ankles and with it properly positioned much can be done with it.
i really like sl-4 from what i know of it which is little so i naturally teach things differently. With the higher belts i go into an extreme amount of detail about why a technique will work or not and where we can go with it and we often discuss what makes sense ands what is crap, yet i do not set these things in stone, i point out what i see and why and how and hopefully they grow from there asnd may yet come back and teach me things...then i will have donme a good job...imho

respectfully,
Marlon

An exceptional attitude towards teaching and learning from any given technique!

 

[kidswarrior]

Kidswarrior: I see your in Rancho Cuc. I'd be nice to someday get together and exchange ideas sometimes.

I'd like that. Shoot me a PM when you see some daylight in your schedule, and we can compare days and times.

 

[Hand Sword]

Not a combo, but kind of is by itself. The 10 pt. and plum tree blocking sytems. I bring it up due to watching a bunch of youtubes and came across this by Master Rebelo. (

) I saw the connection immediately. Give it look all and see what you think. Then ask, a blocking system, or closer to what is shown

?

Thanks Master Rebelo!! :asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[marlon]

Not a combo, but kind of is by itself. The 10 pt. and plum tree blocking sytems. I bring it up due to watching a bunch of youtubes and came across this by Master Rebelo. (

) I saw the connection immediately. Give it look all and see what you think. Then ask, a blocking system, or closer to what is shown

?

Thanks Master Rebelo!! :asian: :asian: :asian:

I second that thanks to ,master Rebello. Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also. BTw it also reminded me of plum tree. these are great to work reaction drills and flow from these situations and the blocking systems to finish the attacker. Of course we need to keep in mind and add to what we do the other hand and body postitioning. Great point Handsword. thanks...is there enough here for another thread?

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

I missed a lot of posts over the weekend

in no particular order...

I brought up 'trained fighters' in reference to the point of which arm was most likely to be injured. Mark wrote that most right handed people will take a stance left forward. My reply to that was most UNTRAINED people would take that stance, but that we, at my school, train right lead - I wasn;t talking at all aoubt the stance of the attacker. My point was that the hand that is most active, and in SKK combos that appears to be the right hand, is the most likely to be injured.

Jesse, Mark was the only one who suggested that #2 had a core principle of learning to fight one handed. Although many wrote that this was a good lesson, and I agree it is, I just don't think that it is important enough to design a one-handed technique to be part of the rank requirements. And if I did it would be a left handed tech since the right is most likely to be injured IMHO. I spoke to my teacher and his opinion is that we could train ANY technique to be done (or at least examined) with either hand injured.

==========
left hand at right cheek "... it counters the grab/fall forward..." interesting, I will def. look at that that makes a lot more sense than blocking a left punch LOL

======

'I re-read the description of your #2, the only thing in common with the original SKK #2 is the initial footwork, block, and eventually a backfist. I see no elbow to the SP with a shuffle, heel sweep with more shuffling, groin attack, leg control'

I think our 2 versions have these things in common: the principle of attacking from "inside" the attacker; the principle of manipulation of posture through attacking targets on the center line; the principle of controlling height by attacking the groin and head alternately; the principle of controlling depth through manipulating the control of height.

By changing the technique we also have added : controlling width through double-factor blocking; using attacker's involuntary body reactions to add force to our strikes; striking with body momentum (shuffle&strike); and being prepared for follow-up attacks.

We don't do the leg sweep/groin attack in #2, but it sounds a LOT like what we do in our version of #26.

=============

I'm not sure if y'all are aware of this or not, but I didn't change these technqiues I am only a green belt, about to test for brown. I play with some of them to work with SL-4 or YiLiQuan or Uechi Ryu or whatever new knowledge I got... but I don;t teach any of that to anyone.

The guy who did has his own ideas about what is most, somewhat, and least effective and practical, and he rearranged what he knew into his own take on SKK mixed with what he knew of Goju Ryu and Cerios Kenpo and some other stuff. So some of our techniques that are different than yours you will see for example almost move for move on a Cerio Kenpo Hands tape! but really how many of the techs you are doing were taught by Sonny Gascon or George Pesare or Nick Cerio? So when you confess a loyalty to "the original" I have to wonder "which original?" Keeping the old for the sake of tradition is of course nothing any of us would do on purpose.

My point is that our system of SKK is not just randomly changed versions of USSD or FV's SKK. It all works together and while it isn't perfect (at leat to my green belt eyes) it's not just " I never liked that technique so I'll just drop it" either.

Also until recnetly I was on an "***'t Instructor" program where I was teaching some kids and sometimes an adult class but I had to put that on hold for a while so now I just train myself.

============

"BTW, this is one of the better discussions I've seen in awhile, and I hope everyone hangs in with it and as 14 Kempo and Marlon said, let's keep it going. " - Awesome, me too.


"nice discussion, keep it going!! " - I agree

"I won't comment on this topic anymore, as it seems you are unwilling to empty your cup. " :erg:
what, you need someone to catch the overflow from yours??? Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I am not considering what you say. I just disagree with you on some things, for example, the quality of training at my school or our short-changing of our students. Those remarks were kindof rude, Mark, and not helpful to a good discussion.

 

[DavidCC]

I second that thanks to ,master Rebello. Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also. BTw it also reminded me of plum tree. these are great to work reaction drills and flow from these situations and the blocking systems to finish the attacker. Of course we need to keep in mind and add to what we do the other hand and body postitioning. Great point Handsword. thanks...is there enough here for another thread?

respectfully,
Marlon

I can't wait to see this vid on 10-pt, but have hard time getting to YT at work :/ We train 10-pt as a breath control form (meditative), not with applications. I got an interesting writeup on that once from Joe Shuras, I wonder if I can find that anywhere and re-post it... Honestly it is not a big part of what we train and I'm not sure why we still carry it, so hopefully this video will inspire some new love for it around here

 

[marlon]

I can't wait to see this vid on 10-pt, but have hard time getting to YT at work :/ We train 10-pt as a breath control form (meditative), not with applications. I got an interesting writeup on that once from Joe Shuras, I wonder if I can find that anywhere and re-post it... Honestly it is not a big part of what we train and I'm not sure why we still carry it, so hopefully this video will inspire some new love for it around here

the yt vid is not on ten pt. blocking but you can 'see' ten pt. in the moves he demonstrates. the vid is on jujitsu.

marlon

 

[DavidCC]

I had to put that on hold for a while so now I just train myself.

I'm still in class, training, just not teaching.

 

[DavidCC]

the yt vid is not on ten pt. blocking but you can 'see' ten pt. in the moves he demonstrates. the vid is on jujitsu.

marlon

Well that sounds cool too. We do lots of JJ, some of us go for private and group lessons (a group from our school that is) at a local MMA school a couple times a year, and some of their seminars

 

[Hand Sword]

I second that thanks to ,master Rebello. Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also. BTw it also reminded me of plum tree. these are great to work reaction drills and flow from these situations and the blocking systems to finish the attacker. Of course we need to keep in mind and add to what we do the other hand and body postitioning. Great point Handsword. thanks...is there enough here for another thread?

respectfully,
Marlon

I guess another thread can come of it. Less of a topic has generated some in the past-lol.

As for my post, I dunno why...it just struck me in a "WoW" moment for some reason. Maybe overstudying for finals, overtired, ... I dunno. It just struck me that theses "blocking systems" were always taught, and applied as blocks. Here, Master Rebello is talking about something from another system, and BOOM! The movements stood out immediately and were identical. So I started wondering (in my foggy state-lol) Were these "blocking" systems? Did those that teach this ever see these applications before? I know they probably have, as would any serious student. But sometimes you get that OH! moment, even for the obvious. That V8 slap off the forehead so to speak. I dunno, I just had to share what I saw I guess. Then again, I'm even foggier now lol. Am I making sense as to my reason? If so, god bless any of you who are following me, if not, oh well, back to my studies!

:asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

Not a combo, but kind of is by itself. The 10 pt. and plum tree blocking sytems. I bring it up due to watching a bunch of youtubes and came across this by Master Rebelo. (

) I saw the connection immediately. Give it look all and see what you think. Then ask, a blocking system, or closer to what is shown

?

Thanks Master Rebelo!! :asian: :asian: :asian:

Yeah, the more I reflect on what was demo'd, the more I can see what you mean. Have to go back and look again after practicing the 10-pt. a few times--it's been awhile.

Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also.

Is there a link, Marlon? To me, the 10 point has always been intriguing, but I learned no application. So it's either reverse engineer at some point, or as David said, restrict it to a meditative exercise; or, if there's already a good application vid around...?

 

[Hand Sword]

Think of applying #2 combo off of a lapel grab. Might explain the use of one hand as the other pins/traps the grabbing hand, then the flow into the elbow.

 

[DavidCC]

Is there a link, Marlon? To me, the 10 point has always been intriguing, but I learned no application.

that's a relief, I was worried I might be the only one LOL

 

[marlon]

Yeah, the more I reflect on what was demo'd, the more I can see what you mean. Have to go back and look again after practicing the 10-pt. a few times--it's been awhile.

Is there a link, Marlon? To me, the 10 point has always been intriguing, but I learned no application. So it's either reverse engineer at some point, or as David said, restrict it to a meditative exercise; or, if there's already a good application vid around...?

not on yt or anything. He teaches it that way and i am sure it is on one of his dvd's ...probably green belt or green stripe.
you can ask him at www.shaolinkempo.com

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[kidswarrior]

not on yt or anything. He teaches it that way and i am sure it is on one of his dvd's ...probably green belt or green stripe.
you can ask him at www.shaolinkempo.com

respectfully,
Marlon

OK, thanks.

 

[Hand Sword]

Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?

 

[marlon]

Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?

or against a spinning back fist...what do you mean "as you move up the circle"?

respectfully,

Marlon

 

[MJS]

In my opinion #2 is probably the most versatile combo in the system which fits into this discussion. This defensive manuever can be used with little or no adjustment off a right or left straight punch (step through or not), right hook, right side club, right high roundhouse kick, right or left one hand push, two hand push, left lapel grab, left lapel grab with right hook, right lapel grab and that is without adding or making major adjustments.

Try a few and tell me what you think or if you have others I would love to hear them. It is also a great manuever to graft other techniques with.

Sorry I've neglected this thread. Jumping back in though. Looking at your attacks above, everything seems like it'd work just fine. Sure, a slight adjustment step or two may be needed, but for the most part, the tech. in its original form can be used.

Mike

 

[MJS]

lets' see.....


box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin

we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.

Interesting variation. Slightly changes the way I originally learned it and the way I usually have seen it done, but if it works...

Mike