SKK Combos and Various Attacks

[marlon]

Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack. I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.

Matt thanks for the clip. I see what sensei Rebelo is saying, however, i find the way i have been taught to do it better inhibits a follow up attack. the grab first does not do so as well in my opinion.

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

Matt thanks for the clip. I see what sensei Rebelo is saying, however, i find the way i have been taught to do it better inhibits a follow up attack. the grab first does not do so as well in my opinion.

Respectfully,
marlon

It never seases to amaze me how many different variations can be taught in different schools off of one technique and this is in the "ideal" phase.

 

[JTKenpo]

In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!

We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.

Let the games begin!

In my opinion #2 is probably the most versatile combo in the system which fits into this discussion. This defensive manuever can be used with little or no adjustment off a right or left straight punch (step through or not), right hook, right side club, right high roundhouse kick, right or left one hand push, two hand push, left lapel grab, left lapel grab with right hook, right lapel grab and that is without adding or making major adjustments.

Try a few and tell me what you think or if you have others I would love to hear them. It is also a great manuever to graft other techniques with.

 

[DavidCC]

Our version of #2 is similar. I would type it out, but it just so happens that I have taken our version of #2 and changed it to use the indices and alignment mechanisms that Doc Chapel taught me. So for your reading pleasure I now present, my own unique take on SKK Combo #2.

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.

Attack - right roundhouse punch or haymaker
step forward with right foot to 12 with right inward block with PAM right foot (stomp) as you pivot into horse stance facing 1030, left hand BAM (slap) to right shoulder.
Right hand travels straight back to right outward block (arm in line with shoulder, elbow at shoulder height) as left hand pushes attackers right hand outward. (right hand positioned to block possible left punch).
Right hammer fist to temple with left BAM to right shoulder, left hand pulls to left elbow position as right hand continues travel to rebound off your own left shoulder.
Simultaneously strike right hand back fist to nose with left punch to solar plexus, then roll right arm down to hammer groin while left palm heel positions next to right shoulder (positioned to deflect head butt or falling attacker), shuffling forward if necessary as attacker stumbles back.
Strike to chin or neck with upward right elbow as attacker bends over from the groin strike.
Cross out, he's done.

I left out some of the details becasue if you don't have the SL-4 vocab it won't matter anyway

I think this could be useful for outside left although the targets have to change for outside left since this one attacks targets moving down and up the center line, and for outside left those targets are not available.

 

[JTKenpo]

"I think this could be useful for outside left although the targets have to change for outside left since this one attacks targets moving down and up the center line, and for outside left those targets are not available." DavidCC

Thats the fun of this thread and looking at the combos against different attacks. Our natural weapons stay the same but in this case instead of targeting their center line now we are looking at the floating ribs and temple.

 

[kidswarrior]

we grad the neck from behind..easier to reach than the shoulders and press on the shoulder of the attacking arm this way it does not matter which leg is forward...plus the goin shot tends to bend them forward a bit helping access for the rest of the technique.

marlon

Thanks, I'd forgotten this nuance. Was taught this as the *advanced* way to do the technique.

 

[JTKenpo]

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]


This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.

 

[DavidCC]

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]


This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.

Interesting changes, I'll have to think about those. but I think that these changes assume that I ahve read the attack as a clinch and not a punch. The dilemma I am having is, after the initial block of the initial punch (conforming to the same "ideal" attack so far), the attacker collapses into you...

Wait did you say to step forward with right foot, and hammer fist to his left ribs with my right as he clinches me? Have you worked with that or did you just make that up LOL??? OK I said I would try it so I will

 

[RevIV]

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]

Sorry David if i am misinterpreting your statement. When you talk about the issue of the attacker trying to clinch, is it before i get my attack off or after I have already hit the person? If the clincher gets me before i hit him, then I am to slow and i need to change my style quickly because he's going to grab me. If you are talking about the clinch of a person buckling forward after a hit, then you have a few options. Be aware of a persons body movements when you hit them. When you hit them low you know they are going to buckle so be ready for follow up. I just did a quick run through of combos 1-21 in my head and I could see few red flags that would be considered "a problem with many of our combos." Could you elaborate on this a little, thanks.
Jesse

 

[JTKenpo]

Interesting changes, I'll have to think about those. but I think that these changes assume that I ahve read the attack as a clinch and not a punch. The dilemma I am having is, after the initial block of the initial punch (conforming to the same "ideal" attack so far), the attacker collapses into you...

Wait did you say to step forward with right foot, and hammer fist to his left ribs with my right as he clinches me? Have you worked with that or did you just make that up LOL??? OK I said I would try it so I will

No I didn't say step, I thought you meant that you are already in an attackers clench and wanted to use defensive manuevers. As for the attacker running into you after the initial block let them run into the back punch or the side elbow.

 

[DavidCC]

quote=DavidCC
before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
/quote

Sorry David if i am misinterpreting your statement. When you talk about the issue of the attacker trying to clinch, is it before i get my attack off or after I have already hit the person? If the clincher gets me before i hit him, then I am to slow and i need to change my style quickly because he's going to grab me. If you are talking about the clinch of a person buckling forward after a hit, then you have a few options. Be aware of a persons body movements when you hit them. When you hit them low you know they are going to buckle so be ready for follow up. I just did a quick run through of combos 1-21 in my head and I could see few red flags that would be considered "a problem with many of our combos." Could you elaborate on this a little, thanks.
Jesse

No I didn't say step, I thought you meant that you are already in an attackers clench and wanted to use defensive manuevers. As for the attacker running into you after the initial block let them run into the back punch or the side elbow.

Yes, nwo you are reading me there ... for example after the initial block in combo 2, attacker attempts to wrap you up in a bear hug or clinch, trying to smother your arms perhaps.

I think this could be an issue with any tech where we are inside on their center. What do you teach, do, or are taught to deal with that? Mostly (generalizing) the techs don't seem to have mechanisms built in, so what adaptations have been developed or found - and why aren't they part of the base technique? OR are they when you teach it???

 

[marlon]

Yes, nwo you are reading me there ... for example after the initial block in combo 2, attacker attempts to wrap you up in a bear hug or clinch, trying to smother your arms perhaps.

I think this could be an issue with any tech where we are inside on their center. What do you teach, do, or are taught to deal with that? Mostly (generalizing) the techs don't seem to have mechanisms built in, so what adaptations have been developed or found - and why aren't they part of the base technique? OR are they when you teach it???

after the initial move of #2 whether you block with it , strike with it or both...not to mention the body movement involved there are quite a few mechanisms built in. You may need to work on training them in different scenarios, however and not be so fixed on the targets. Each combo needs to be explored, yet i find that too much of this too early leads to poor body mechanics and "adjustments" based on flawed execution rather than a need for change. Try your combo's lefty against a right attack is a simple difference that teaches much.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]


This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.

or lift your arm for a rising elbow to the head...

marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

Yes, nwo you are reading me there ... for example after the initial block in combo 2, attacker attempts to wrap you up in a bear hug or clinch, trying to smother your arms perhaps.

I think this could be an issue with any tech where we are inside on their center. What do you teach, do, or are taught to deal with that? Mostly (generalizing) the techs don't seem to have mechanisms built in, so what adaptations have been developed or found - and why aren't they part of the base technique? OR are they when you teach it???

Gotcha...lets say the block is good but his momentum brings him through your defense before it happens and you end up in a bear hug. Do you not have techniques against bear hugs? I'm not being sarcastic some people do not. I teach techniques against rear bear hug arms pinned, arms free, front bear hugs arms pinned and arms free. The fact that now you are in a bear hug shouldn't put you in a mindset that #2, or insert any number here, is flawed. The attack has changed so must your defense.

Grafting techniques also is a great way to enhance all your defenses but you need to have a solid understanding of each technique so as Marlon put it you aren't changing techniques due to lack of understanding.

Great questions.

 

[DavidCC]

Gotcha...lets say the block is good but his momentum brings him through your defense before it happens and you end up in a bear hug. Do you not have techniques against bear hugs?

Or the hammer to the temple dazes him and he falls into you...

But yeah that's a really great point. Need to do more of that for sure...

However I'd still prefer to address it within the (to steal some terminology) "ideal phase" of the scenariso by employing some kind of depth control within the techniques' base version; then "grafting" (THIEF!) into something else as a "what-if-this-fails" idea, not a "what-if-he-does-this"

 

[JTKenpo]

Or the hammer to the temple dazes him and he falls into you...

But yeah that's a really great point. Need to do more of that for sure...

However I'd still prefer to address it within the (to steal some terminology) "ideal phase" of the scenariso by employing some kind of depth control within the techniques' base version; then "grafting" (THIEF!) into something else as a "what-if-this-fails" idea, not a "what-if-he-does-this"

David in your #2 which is the first strike the hammer to the groin or the back punch to the head? If it is the hammer I see where you are coming from, there is no depth control in fact you are inviting the attacker to fall on top of you. Ours has the back punch to the head first which is where the depth control comes from as he moves forward opposing motion helps out in the strike to the head. Oh and it isn't thievery its flattery, isn't that the saying "The best form of flattery is imitating another".

 

[DavidCC]

lets' see.....


box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin

we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.

 

[JTKenpo]

lets' see.....


box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin

we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.

Naah, block harder make him fall the other way!!

 

[RevIV]

lets' see.....


box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin

we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.

That answers a lot for me. You do not do #2 the way most SKK people do it. I do not either, I do it off a left right punch with Left foot staying forward, but the rest of it is basically #2 SKK way. If you hit someone in the temple and they are falling forwards then they are knocked out. If you hit them hard enough to the temple from this angle they should only be going back and over. Insted of the ridge hand, try a rising elbow you may like it.
Jesse

 

[Mark L]

lets' see.....


box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin

we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.

This isn't really SKK #2 (as RevIV pointed out), nor does it demonstrate the principles of SKK #2. There are two take away messages I get from 2, the primary is that you relentlessly drive the opponent backwards ending with them stacked onto their shoulders/neck. Done properly with some degree of contact and intent the BG ends up about 7-10' behind where they started. The other salient feature is that the technique is one handed.

This is all not to say your version is bad, it simply diverges significantly from the SKK version in practice and principle.