SKK Combos and Various Attacks

[MJS]

In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!

We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.

Let the games begin!

 

[14 Kempo]

In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!

We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.

Let the games begin!

I'd like some clarification first, that being are we "changing" the combination to suit the attack, or modifying movement, strikes and target areas without changing the basic concepts and theories of the original combination?

I believe that each combination has its own set of concepts. As a very basic example, combination 6 teaches us that we can beat a punch with a linear kick (the leg is longer than the arm) as long as we react in a timely manner. With that being said, with somebody attacking from the rear, a back kick to stop his attack is a modified combo 6 without changing the basic concept of the kick beating the punch. A sidekick to an attacker encraoching from that direction, same concept. Combination 7, too late to beat the punch, step off the line and deliver a linear kick ... front, side or back kick, doesn't matter, same concept. You get the idea.

 

[JTKenpo]

I agree with the concept but feel that the variables widen too much at first glance. Maybe if we start with varying the attack and what has to change to make the combo work as close to its original form and then if we get going on an indepth of a particular combo reintroduce the concept as you discuss. To make a long story short I think interpretation may get in the way in that context.

 

[JTKenpo]

For example lets start at the beginning, well sort of.

#1 -
RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK AND LEFT FOOT DRAWS INTO CAT WITH A LEFT MONKEY BLOCK. LEFT FOOT STEPS UP TO HALF MOON STANCE AND WRAP ATTACKERS RIGHT ARM WITH YOUR LEFT. EXECUTE RIGHT RAKING TIGERS CLAW TO LEFT SIDE OF FACE AND RIGHT CRANE STRIKE TO RIGHT SIDE OF FACE (REVERSING DIRECTION). EXECUTE OSOTO GARI TAKEDOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT VERTICAL PUNCH TO SOLOR PLEXUS AND RIGHT KNIFE HAND TO THROAT. CROSS AND COVER.

If we change the punch to a right push does anything change? No, actually it becomes a more viable defense against this attack because I am trying to grab the wrist after a parry.

If we change the attack to a roundhouse punch now we have to do some changing. We must stop the momentum of the arm, I would suggest stepping into the attack with the left and execute a left extended outward block or knife hand block. Then we can finish the combo as described.

 

[MJS]

I'd like some clarification first, that being are we "changing" the combination to suit the attack, or modifying movement, strikes and target areas without changing the basic concepts and theories of the original combination?

I believe that each combination has its own set of concepts. As a very basic example, combination 6 teaches us that we can beat a punch with a linear kick (the leg is longer than the arm) as long as we react in a timely manner. With that being said, with somebody attacking from the rear, a back kick to stop his attack is a modified combo 6 without changing the basic concept of the kick beating the punch. A sidekick to an attacker encraoching from that direction, same concept. Combination 7, too late to beat the punch, step off the line and deliver a linear kick ... front, side or back kick, doesn't matter, same concept. You get the idea.

I was under the impression from some posts that I saw in that other thread, that the combos could be used to deal with attacks other than punches. So, I took it as doing our best to keep with the same movements, although some alterations may be necessary to adapt to something other than a punch.

 

[MJS]

For example lets start at the beginning, well sort of.

#1 -
RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK AND LEFT FOOT DRAWS INTO CAT WITH A LEFT MONKEY BLOCK. LEFT FOOT STEPS UP TO HALF MOON STANCE AND WRAP ATTACKERS RIGHT ARM WITH YOUR LEFT. EXECUTE RIGHT RAKING TIGERS CLAW TO LEFT SIDE OF FACE AND RIGHT CRANE STRIKE TO RIGHT SIDE OF FACE (REVERSING DIRECTION). EXECUTE OSOTO GARI TAKEDOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT VERTICAL PUNCH TO SOLOR PLEXUS AND RIGHT KNIFE HAND TO THROAT. CROSS AND COVER.

If we change the punch to a right push does anything change? No, actually it becomes a more viable defense against this attack because I am trying to grab the wrist after a parry.

If we change the attack to a roundhouse punch now we have to do some changing. We must stop the momentum of the arm, I would suggest stepping into the attack with the left and execute a left extended outward block or knife hand block. Then we can finish the combo as described.

Looks like we're on the same page with this.

 

[Hand Sword]

Do you mean to decide what type of attck each combo was designed for? I know they are all taught as punch defenses, but that's not the design for all.

For example # 1-- With the quick draw back into a cat stance and the monkey hand block could be to avoid and catch an incoming kick, or thrusting weapon.

The combos with overhead blocks are for overhead attcks etc..

Also, my point with changing the idea of half mooning applies too. Take combo 3, no half mooning in with a punch allows that groin shot off of the slip. Doing it as taught, not a good angle for it. Also. w/o it, after the jaw shot, they are moving away not allowing the follow up takedown which came after the 1/2 mooning introduction.

 

[JTKenpo]

Do you mean to decide what type of attck each combo was designed for? I know they are all taught as punch defenses, but that's not the design for all.

Yes and no. Although taught off a punch as you stated below it is very obvious some work best off different attacks. In my mind this thread is more about exploring many different attacks, what changes and what stays the same for each of the combos

For example # 1-- With the quick draw back into a cat stance and the monkey hand block could be to avoid and catch an incoming kick, or thrusting weapon.

Thats what I'm talking about. I like the kick app, never thought about it that way.

The combos with overhead blocks are for overhead attcks etc..

Also, my point with changing the idea of half mooning applies too. Take combo 3, no half mooning in with a punch allows that groin shot off of the slip. Doing it as taught, not a good angle for it. Also. w/o it, after the jaw shot, they are moving away not allowing the follow up takedown which came after the 1/2 mooning introduction.

Again absolutely, so now what changes? Instead of a nice clean sweep of the front leg you have to take the person down face first or at the very least down on their right side. Going back to the half mooning issue, when there is no half moon it becomes more difficult for the attacker to use a breakfall. Also I was taught to grab the right shoulder after the left palm block to ensure they aren't going anywhere.

 

[MJS]

Interestingly enough, I came across these 2 techs. on youtube today, compliments of our very own KenpoJoe! Rather than start a new thread, I posted them here, as I feel that they are addressing the same topic that we're discussing here.

Combo 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&NR=1

Combo 16

 

[JTKenpo]

Interestingly enough, I came across these 2 techs. on youtube today, compliments of our very own KenpoJoe! Rather than start a new thread, I posted them here, as I feel that they are addressing the same topic that we're discussing here.

Combo 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&NR=1

Combo 16

I happen to be the guy getting smacked around.

 

[MJS]

I happen to be the guy getting smacked around.

Yes, once KenpoJoe said your name I was like, "Hey, thats JT from the forum!" Nice job in the clips man!! I'm planning on getting together with Joe for a workout in the near future.

 

[Hand Sword]

Again absolutely, so now what changes? Instead of a nice clean sweep of the front leg you have to take the person down face first or at the very least down on their right side. Going back to the half mooning issue, when there is no half moon it becomes more difficult for the attacker to use a breakfall. Also I was taught to grab the right shoulder after the left palm block to ensure they aren't going anywhere.

I don't know, we never had any sweeps etc.... We were taught that combo as a boxing combo. Slip, groin/body shot, left cross (now a grab/check) then uppercut.

 

[DavidCC]

we took out the groin shot and slip.


step left foot to 1030 with left inward block, rebound block off your own right shoulder to grab their right shoulder, with right thrust punch to floating ribs.

pull down with left hand into right back 2 knuckle to temple; follow through to grab left shoulder arm apssing behind their head.

step right foot back into right half moon, while pushing with left hand toward 130 and pulling right hand towards right hip, take attacker down their right shoulder in front of your right foot.

left C&S, left punch to SP, cross out.


if they leave the right foot behind, it is difficult to get the angle on the shoulders



ps -upward blocks work well for punches to the face too.

 

[marlon]

we took out the groin shot and slip.


step left foot to 1030 with left inward block, rebound block off your own right shoulder to grab their right shoulder, with right thrust punch to floating ribs.

pull down with left hand into right back 2 knuckle to temple; follow through to grab left shoulder arm apssing behind their head.

step right foot back into right half moon, while pushing with left hand toward 130 and pulling right hand towards right hip, take attacker down their right shoulder in front of your right foot.

left C&S, left punch to SP, cross out.


if they leave the right foot behind, it is difficult to get the angle on the shoulders



ps -upward blocks work well for punches to the face too.

we grad the neck from behind..easier to reach than the shoulders and press on the shoulder of the attacking arm this way it does not matter which leg is forward...plus the goin shot tends to bend them forward a bit helping access for the rest of the technique.

marlon

 

[karate-dragon]

After watching the You Tube clip on Comb#16, does anyone do this as a timing tech. where the kick is first, then step forward and grab the arm for a take down?

 

[marlon]

After watching the You Tube clip on Comb#16, does anyone do this as a timing tech. where the kick is first, then step forward and grab the arm for a take down?

i do not know any other way to make it work

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Matt]

i do not know any other way to make it work

respectfully,
Marlon

Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack. I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.

 

[14 Kempo]

Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack. I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.

Wondering if this is what you're talking about, Matt ...

Step to 10:30 with the left foot, lefthand parries the opponents right punch. Right upward palm to the chin. Right hand wraps the head and pulls the opponent downward into a rising right knee to the sternum/solar-plexus area. Rotate clockwise to the armbar/break. Use a left cresent kick to the second armbar. Step out with the right leg, a third break. Deliver a finishing strike to the bas of the skull using a dragon fist or pheonix fist. (Hope I wrote that up correctly)

 

[Matt]

Wondering if this is what you're talking about, Matt ...

Step to 10:30 with the left foot, lefthand parries the opponents right punch. Right upward palm to the chin. Right hand wraps the head and pulls the opponent downward into a rising right knee to the sternum/solar-plexus area. Rotate clockwise to the armbar/break. Use a left cresent kick to the second armbar. Step out with the right leg, a third break. Deliver a finishing strike to the bas of the skull using a dragon fist or pheonix fist. (Hope I wrote that up correctly)

Sort of... You are probably thinking of an EPAK technique, but just to make things especially confusing, several of Professor Kimo's techniques share names with EPAK techniques without matching the movements, or even attacks. The opening move is similar, except the right arm shoots up so that the parry turns into a hyperextension.

One version goes like this: Dodging the Lance variant (Straight punch) - Parry (l) to rising punch (r), hammer arm down (r) and do roundhouse elbow to face. Grab and pull down head, shoot thrust punch
across the back of the neck. Then on the way back you go either into a crank or a takedown, as preferred. It's kind of fluid. I think it's easier to show.

 

[marlon]

Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack. I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.

i'll take a look, thanks Matt. BTW i do a dragon stomp / stop kick to the lead knee or just above it now as taught by Shihan I, i find it more effective than the front kick to the bladder.

respectfully,
Marlon