Sincerely asking...

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Reedone816, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Absolutely!
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  3. Reedone816

    Reedone816 Blue Belt

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    That thing with many names and systems had a hype back in 80's, but now it dwindling (hardcore muay thai now is the "thing"), because the students learn that it can't work with anyone, whatever that is...
    and now they move to "invulnarability" (presidential guard):
     
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  4. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sorry not speaking the language I have no idea what that video was about
     
  5. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In the above Presidential Guard video are they saying they are invulnerable because of their training?

    I saw them training in Aikido, Tai Chi (in the background), Karate and some form of Pencak Silat it looked like. Plus they talked about training in MMA. Pretty par for the course for any specialized military, para military group in that they get a smattering of training in several disciplines. At least ones that have not adopted one concise training regimen like MCMAP (our Marines program), etc.
     
  6. Reedone816

    Reedone816 Blue Belt

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    The clips above told the story of the kind of skills a presidential guard should have.
    The aikido, seems clear, the green uniform is pencak silat along with machete mastering, along with weapon training and hard hand to hand combat ability, can you see them in white training uniform? That certain kind of school has invulnerability (as breaking metal and such) and sensor enhanching curriculum...

    Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk
     
  7. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I was responding more to MattofSilat who was upset about people having disparaging opinions about more esoteric styles like Aikido.

    I was merely pointing out that the negative opinion of Aikido among the masses is the lack of Aikido masters showing what their art can. The Gracies did it in the 1990s, and Bruce Lee did it in the 70s. Unfortunately, arts like Aikido don't do it, and because of that, people simply don't take it seriously.

    Videos like this don't help matters either;

     
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  8. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The Gracies certainly did show what they can do over a long period of time well before they even came to the United States. Bruce Lee well he never competed or anything other than being in the movies. We really at this stage do not know what Bruce could do. Though he certainly did found a great system and Dan Inosanto took it even further! We do know however that certain JKD practitioner's like Erik Paulson, etc. have been very successful in competitions. However, competition is not self-defense and someone does not have to be a great competitor to be very good at self-defense and personal protection. I know several Aikidoka that have used their training during work related situations. (ie. law enfocement and corrections) They have always been thankful for their Aikido training. That being said there are some pretty bad videos of any art/system that has been around for awhile. There is always a proponent from a system that couldn't fight out of a paper bag.
     
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  9. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Here is the founder of Aikido doing pretty much the exact same stuff you see in that vid;

     
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  10. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Watch the video of Ueshiba a bit more carefully. Yes, some of them are indeed throwing themselves -- but not many,and when they do, it's often to avoid injury from what Ueshiba's superior positioning and control of their arm has created. You don't see any of the silly rope-a-dope stuff; uke approaches, Ueshiba moves, and for the "no touch" -- shoves a hand in the guy's face, forcing him to pull back and lose his balance unless he wants to get hit in the face.

    That's one of the things many people don't understand when they see aikido, traditional jujitsu, and other paired kata. There is almost always an escape or an out allowed for uke to take to avoid being injured. So it looks like they're "complying" -- but the truth is, if they didn't comply a bit, they'd be hurt. Complaining about that is a bit like watching law enforcement training with marking cartridges, and complaining that people don't get hurt or fall down dead. Nobody needs to practice being dead... it seems to come quite naturally.
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I'm sorry but are we watching the same video? There's literally instances of Ueshiba standing next to someone, touching them, and uke falling flat on his face. In some instances, he isn't touching uke at all, and uke goes flying.

    Let's be honest here; If this was anyone but Ueshiba, we wouldn't take this demonstration seriously at all.

    Except we know that a bullet can maim or kill someone. Most people would agree that you can't throw someone in an opposite direction with a wave of your hand, and pin someone down by making a downward motion without even touching the body. If you could, a lot more people would be doing it outside of demonstrations

    I mean look at his;



    This is very clearly the no-touch ki nonsense.
     
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  12. blindsage

    blindsage Master of Arts

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    Either someone can do it or they can't. Arguing about it here won't change that. If Ueshiba is totally legit in those videos, there is literally no way to convince anyone of it. Proof is in the pudding. If they can do it, no amount of rationalizing about why they can't will change it. If they can't do it, you can find out for yourself and then you don't have to worry about arguing about it.
     
  13. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    He isn't doing it. Especially not the no-touch ki stuff in the video I just posted. You either have students participating in a mass delusion, or you have them performing stunts in order to make their teacher and style look good. Again, what Ueshiba is doing in the videos I posted is no different than what you saw in the OP's video.

    That supposed practice of moving people around with ki only stretches back to O Sensei himself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  14. hussaf

    hussaf Green Belt

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    Ueshiba was a brilliant martial artist and a crazy religious fanatic. It's tough to sort through the crazy and useful stuff. A lot of the disparity in aikido stems from the confusion of Ueshibas direct students due to Ueshiba being kind of ****** at teaching.
     
  15. blindsage

    blindsage Master of Arts

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    And thanks for proving my point.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Agree with you 100% on this.

    If you have the skill, you should be able to throw a "throwing dummy" the same way as you throw your own student. The physics of throwing is very simple. You move your opponent's center to be outside of his base area, he will fall. If you do it right, your opponent doesn't need to throw himself just like the "throwing dummy" won't be able to throw itself.

    If you can throw a throwing dummy "without touching it", your name will be recorded in the MA history forever.



    [​IMG]
     
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  17. blindsage

    blindsage Master of Arts

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    Why bother throwing the dummy when you can just stop holding it up. No touch is easy with a throwing dummy, when it stands up on it's own I will show you.
     
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  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    The point is that people are quick to say that no touch ki from some no name Aikido practitioner was ridiculous nonsense. Yet when O Sensei is doing the exact same thing, and is probably the inspiration for all the no touch ki quacks, people aren't so quick to say its fake.

    Except it is fake. Just because O Sensei does it doesn't make it any less fake.

    Pretty much. I'm surprised O Sensei didn't start force choking people Vader style.
     
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