Sincerely asking...

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Reedone816, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    This is exactly why I have given up on another current thread. I obviously can't pee that far up the wall.
    :asian:
     
  2. Reedone816

    Reedone816 Blue Belt

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    I believe he is legit, what I ask is about the no touching stuff if it is from aikido.
    He had spent time several months studying our style (which is still touching stuff) for his paper for promoting to dan-5 aikido.
    That is why I don't ask about the touching stuff because he had perform it before, it just the "new" no touching stuff that he hadn't shown back then.
    Hmmm, that's a new perspective, seen it actually done with shout, but it hit the nail just now...
    I hope, this one has logic explanation on it, because, "truly" the no-touching stuff many here still believes it, it just it not all powerful, in 80's it was booming, many were sold, no need to sweat.
    but in the 90's when they saw that the no touching stuff is actually like physical training, the more you train the better you are, the longer you no training it will decreased, and it has some rituals that doesn't makes sense.
    and if your opponent is stronger physically or not mad at you, it won't affect them (big), and "strangely" it works like voodoo, it only works if your target believe it works, the "physical" martial art start growing back.
    so more or less, the statement of "it only works on the student" somehow close.
    I never faced with one, so I cannot say yes or not, but it really hard to go too straight challenged it already established "believed" value, especially the person left and right from you believe in it...

    sometimes if one lives near, we just respectfully ask them come to the dojo, and welcome them to proof their "assessment". This only to the nagging one, but mostly just ignore them...

    Thank you all again for the responses...
     
  3. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    As several have mentioned before it doesn't work! It is total crap and ******** from a martial perspective!
     
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  4. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Never thought his Aikido background was part of the question. Did think you were asking if no touch was part of Aikido....and it is not. Also thought that it should be brought in that anyone who claims to be able to do no touch knock downs was a fake.

    Beijing University of traditional Chinese medicine has studied this sort of thing and so far their stance on this is that anyone who claims to be able to project their qi and/or who claims to be able to knock people down with it are fake. As for what I think based on what I have seen the whole no touch stuff is as I stated, the guy has successfully taught his students how to fall down on queue (see ki master, and George Dillman)
     
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  5. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I have two different perspectives on this, I think for martial applications it is BS. I don't believe it works.

    BUT, when looking at how it is done I think that most of the instructors sincerely believe in what they are doing. I think what happens after I have watched it, is the same thing that happens during stage hypnosis. I think that the instructor creates the same atmosphere and basically, "hypnotizes" their students as to what is going to happen and with the trust built with their instructor it does happen. This is also why it does not work on doubtors who are not students.

    So, is it "fake"? Yes, if we are looking at the cause of it as being a "no touch knockout" due to "chi/ki". If we look at the context itself, I don't think in all cases that it is "fake" as in a staged event where both parties are just acting, just a different mechanism through hypnosis.
     
  6. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I agree, but then it becomes more of a parlor trick. Or trickery in the manor of a hypnotist making someone think they are a chicken which is not a problem or a deception...but when the hypnotist start to tell the person they actually turned them into a chicken, convince them of such then it is a whole other issue and when the hypnotist actual starts to believe it himself then he has crossed over to delusional and either way it is not real and the entire concept of "turning one into an actual chicken" is fake and the hypnotist is either delusional or a conman
     
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  7. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    So what happens when it works on people who are not students? Not the no- touch stuff but the use of Ki to enhance technique. To me there is a combination of BS and good aikido ... mostly the former, but I don't believe any of it is anything to do with hypnosis. If it doesn't work against outsiders it is BS like the kiai master video.
    :asian:
     
  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    All demonstration are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The

    - 1/2 fake is your opponent will need to give you that opportunity.
    - 1/2 real is you have to finish it.

    If your opponent not only give you that opportunity (1/2 fake), but also help you to finish it (1/2 fake), that's 100% fake by definition.

    When your opponent runs toward you, if you hold a sword in front of you, you can stop him before his body touches the tip of your sword. If your opponent's is blind fold and run toward you, his body may run into your sword. This is why no Aikido masters on earth can move a "throwing dummy (or non-student)" the way as they can move their own students.

    Also if a master can move his students like a bunch of straw men, it demonstrates his students are all weak individuals which is not good for his own reputation at all.
     
  9. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    K-Man what do you think the Kiai Master does with his students to get them to throw themselves around. Certainly his technique is horrible by what we have on video. His movement certainly does not warrant the students throwing themselves. What else could it be other than self hypnosis?

    In regards to the OP's original video clip it won't work as planned as demonstrated above on non-students. Just not going to happen. No touch knockouts, throws, etc is BS. Though if someone wants to give it a go with me I will be willing to put up $10,000 just so long as they are willing to put up $10,000 as well. We could make it really interesting having them apply it while I am trying to hit them ( :) ) or I could stand there while they try to throw me without touching me. We will also have scientists and video crews there to document their failure! I am pretty confident!!! ;)
     
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  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you can make it 10 to 1 deal ($10,000 on your side and only $1,000 on the customer side), you may have better luck for your business. IMO, even 10 to 1 is still a good business model. :)
     
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  11. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I don't think this is anything to do with what I asked. What you are describing is quite right. To demonstrate any technique you must have your partner perform an attack that the technique you are demonstrating will work against. But that is nothing to do with fake. Even if your partner gives you a realistic response doesn't mean the technique is fake. For example, a number of techniques will be more effective following a strike. So if I want to demonstrate a particular joint lock I'm not going to punch my partner with full force first.

    However, that is an aside. Your statement about Aikido masters is not true. What you mean is, in your experience you haven't come across an aikido master who can do that sort of thing. I have and I can promise you I am neither a straw man or weak.
    :asian:
     
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  12. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Mate, I'm with you on that one, but there is only one reason I started aikido. I wanted to be able to do what the guy teaching me could do. No one throws themselves anywhere in our training and it is all full resistance. I reckon it took me six years before I felt confidant enough to use most of it and some of it I still wouldn't use. But some of it I am teaching to my Karate and Krav guys. Then again, this particular teacher is the only one I have come across that can do what he does. But FWIW I reckon I could get $10k to put up for you. Not no-touchy stuff though. You try to hit him and he can hit you. ;)
    Next time you are in Australia.
     
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  13. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I agree. That is why I put many of those guys truly believe what they are doing and that it is, in fact, "no touch knockouts" with their chi. It would put them in the column of delusional in your book. If you believe in something and can show what you believe is true to your students. Then, to them, it is true. Reminds me of Freud's work, "Future of an Illusion". I think that is a better definition in this case. A delusion is something held by one person caused by a mental illness. An illusion is something that the brain believes as true, but does not have a mental illness/medical condition attached to it that is believed by multiple people.
     
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  14. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah I think it is a total win on my side no matter what! ;)
     
  15. Reedone816

    Reedone816 Blue Belt

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    Yes the trend is heading that way :)

    simplify the stance, if I can say, that no matter how "fake" or "foolish" it looks, the real question is whether it is working or not?
     
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    The kid makes a point. Some people don't simply believe in faith and magic. If you want someone to believe your claims, you need to step up and prove it to them.

    Unfortunately, too many in the martial arts don't step up and show what their arts can do, so people on the competitive side of things scoff at them.

    I do think its interesting how some get more angry at people who simply want martial artists to prove their claims, than the frauds and con-men who teach absolute nonsense and scam people out of their hard earned money, and give people a false sense of security.

    Aikido is simply one of those arts that has a lot of poor practitioners due to its high learning curve. I've personally never met an Aikidoka who could perform their art on a very high level, and every Aikidoka I've had the pleasure of sparring with simply couldn't make their style work for them. I would certainly like to meet a proficient Aikidoka one day, but as of right now, I'd probably be nodding my head alongside the teenager in the YT comments.
     
  17. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I'm out of here before it becomes another MMA is the only way thread like all the others that have been thread-jacked.
    :s436:
     
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  18. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay I have personally met some very accomplished Aikido practitioners and I have no doubt they could utilize their training.


    What the OP was looking at was someone utilizing no touch jedi like skill sets to throw people. This is self hypnosis and for self defense it is crap! It is not proper body mechanics or moving out of the way at the last instant so the person falls when off balanced like what K-Man described of his teacher. No touch KO, Throws is simply fantasy and self hypnosis!


    Look at this clip shot in Bali, Indonesia and tell me if you would want to rely on this skill in a self-defense, personal protection situation.



    Note that the people in the clip do not seem like the people utilizing it for advertising! Weird, I know!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  19. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    There are no touch throws -- but the real ones generally work by essentially suckering the adversary into over committing until they fall. I've seen and felt a few other things done -- but the effects are very subtle, more an inclination than an actual throw or touch. And not something I'd want to rely on under any sort of pressure, since they seem to work best in calm, quiet settings.
     
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  20. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    Brain,
    I think my 5 year old grandson makes the no touch look more real when his invisible attackers get him in the back yard.

    As for accomplished Aikido practitioners being able to defend themselves I have met a few that deffenately could ..surprisingly both where police officers and very few people knew they studied Aikido
     
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