Simultaneous strikes

[Kung Fu Wang]

defending the above clinch (bear hug).

Agree! to punch on your opponent's shoulders at the same time can stop his bear hug. Also it's good to stop your opponent's shooting toward to your leg/legs if you can punch back on both of his shoulders.

 

[JR 137]

We’ve got double punches in a few of our kata (these are Kyokushin versions of the kata, but we do them the same way)...

Gekisai Dai, the last 3 counts...

Yantsu; the first count is a double knife-hand followed by a double punch. It’s quickly retracted, but it’s definitely there...

And my favorite kata, Saiha/Saifa. Same double knife hand to double punch as Yantsu, only the double punch is held out...

I’ve never tried either version in sparring before, and we don’t do them in any partner drills. I’ll try both versions of the double punch in sparring tomorrow and report back

 

[drop bear]

I have an arsenal of of troll sparring moves of which the scorpion punch is a part of.

 

[marques]

Looks like I can make a video that people would be interested in. I'll have to use it against a heavy bag, just to show there's some real power behind the strike.

I mean, never seen in competition or actual fight (including YouTube). I have seen in forms (and probably movies as well). But yeah, do that video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I mean, never seen in competition or actual fight (including YouTube). I have seen in forms (and probably movies as well). But yeah, do that video.

Most strikers go with the basics. Look how long it took the "Oblique Kick" to show up in competition and to this day we really don't see other's doing it. As for street fights my guess is that the people who are skilled enough to do it rarely are in situations where they are forced to physically fight, and if they do fight, it's not being recorded by anyone. I would definitely do the double punch that I do it in a street fight, easily. Especially if I think there's a good chance someone may try to grab me by my upper torso or waist. The punch makes those type of grabs really difficult to do.

 

[dvcochran]

In addition to that, the Chang Hon patterns contain many double moves.

Various double punches, strikes, blocks and kicks - either to the same direction or to different directions.

I feel most of the double blocks have sound application. As well, some of the double punches could work with the understanding they would have limited power. I have seen some double kicks work very well but they are quite advanced and require excellent flexibility to work very well.

 

[zzj]

 

[WaterGal]

I think two of the WTF BB forms have double moves. One has a "mountain block" where you make a pushing motion. The other is a double punch.

Keumgang? From what I learned, the "mountain block" is a sweep: pushing with the upraised forearm/fist and sweeping with the leg, with the other arm coming up to, like, provide counterbalance. Keumgang does have the physically difficult but impractical "Keumgang makki", which is basically a simultaneous high and low block while standing on one foot, which imitates the pose of an ancient Korean carving.

 

[dvcochran]

Great power but who has time to get set in such a deep stance and prepare so long for a punch in a SD situation?

 

[dvcochran]

Keumgang? From what I learned, the "mountain block" is a sweep: pushing with the upraised forearm/fist and sweeping with the leg, with the other arm coming up to, like, provide counterbalance. Keumgang does have the physically difficult but impractical "Keumgang makki", which is basically a simultaneous high and low block while standing on one foot, which imitates the pose of an ancient Korean carving.

Yes, I forgot about Keumgang's (Keumgang Mountain) blocks. I have never heard of a sweeping motion with the leg. It has always been explain as two high blocks or high outside blocks. I love the maki stance as it really resonates a persons experience or thoroughness to me. Sipjin has a two handed "pushing the rock" move that is solid if done correctly.

 

[JR 137]

We’ve got double punches in a few of our kata (these are Kyokushin versions of the kata, but we do them the same way)...

Gekisai Dai, the last 3 counts...

Yantsu; the first count is a double knife-hand followed by a double punch. It’s quickly retracted, but it’s definitely there...

And my favorite kata, Saiha/Saifa. Same double knife hand to double punch as Yantsu, only the double punch is held out...

I’ve never tried either version in sparring before, and we don’t do them in any partner drills. I’ll try both versions of the double punch in sparring tomorrow and report back

I hate to quote myself, but I’m reporting back that there’s nothing to report back. None of the Saturday regulars that I had in mind were there today. Instead, it was solely a group of kids who’ve just started transitioning to the adults class. Whatever would’ve happened if I threw any double punches would’ve been worthless, so I didn’t throw any. My sparring consisted of pretty much only hitting them when they made a big mistake. They just started actually sparring, so I can’t hold that against them. I let them land a bunch of stuff so they get the feel of actually hitting someone and so they actually hit right. And it helps me condition a little bit.

At times I felt like Kramer dominating the dojo, although they are around 14 instead of 8...

 

[zzj]

Great power but who has time to get set in such a deep stance and prepare so long for a punch in a SD situation?

Chen style tai chi usually operates at a range closer than typical striking arts and involves control or grappling rather than using strikes to connect/engage.

Look at 1:30 in the video below for an example of how this ‘double strike’ would be used. The ‘set up’ is in fact a controlling ‘roll back’ move, and In a situation when you are up close locking arms with your opponent, it would be natural to have a lower stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Great power but who has time to get set in such a deep stance and prepare so long for a punch in a SD situation?

Agree! If power generation require that much compressing time, it won't be useful. But if you can hide your compressing in your set up, that will be excellent.

 

[TSDTexan]

I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination. It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time. Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.

Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?

Yes. there is a practical purpose to them.

In Karate, and Tang Soo Do there is a perfect example. The simultaneous knife hand strike.

Shoshin Nagamine performs a "Kyobu morote shuto-uchi" (Chest double knife- hand strike). This strike is used to attack both of the opponent's collarbones or throat simultaneously.

This is found in a number of Kata, or Hyung. Kata Chinto is a good example. It is also in a number of Korean Ho sin sul.

When striking the throat.... this is your target:

Typically, most students are told this is a double shuto/soo do to the collarbones. While it is effective, it is not the actual target.

There is a considerable risk of serious injuries or even fatal accident if you strike the External carotid and jugular vein with a tremendous amount of force.

You dont want your half baked mid ranked students practicing lethal stuff... save it for your blackbelts.

The power isn't from a trunk rotation starting in the hips and rising up the spine from there. It is much more like doing butterflies when working dumbbells.

As the target areas are not well protected, and it doesn't take much to deliver a devastating blow...
it's more than enough. Add in the 2 for 1 nature of the attack... and its likely one of the strikes will land.

 

[JR 137]

Here’s a better video of that target being hit IMO. And a lot more entertaining...

 

[dvcochran]

Here’s a better video of that target being hit IMO. And a lot more entertaining...

Great. Absolutely great.

 

[TSDTexan]

Here’s a better video of that target being hit IMO. And a lot more entertaining...

Yep, posted this once upon a time, in years gone by. The problem is that is not a knifehand.

It is a forearm strike. [Seeing as my post was about the double knifehand, and not about the forearm strike, it would confuse some readers to mix up techniques. I would rather not confuse em.]

So how do we know it's not a knifehand?
His arm is way too deep, past the neck. His elbow is just above the pimp's collarbone.

(If you set video speed to .25 it becomes a lot easier to spot.)

But you are right, that it is way more entertaining.
It also demonstrates that the Karate guy didn't wait for the other guy to swing first.

Which of course violates the precept "There is no first strike in Karate" laid down by Gichin Funakoshi.

 

[JR 137]

Which of course violates the precept "There is no first strike in Karate" laid down by Gichin Funakoshi.

If you take the precept literally as translated, then yes, it violates it. I interpret it as ‘defense only.’ Striking first when a true attack is imminent is defense IMO. I doubt Funakoshi would wait for the pimp to physically strike first, but I can’t say for certain as I’ve never met him.

 

[TSDTexan]

If you take the precept literally as translated, then yes, it violates it. I interpret it as ‘defense only.’ Striking first when a true attack is imminent is defense IMO. I doubt Funakoshi would wait for the pimp to physically strike first, but I can’t say for certain as I’ve never met him.

But not every jurisdiction treats swinging first as a valid defense claim.

I agree with you, and in his writing G.F. has advocated for preemptive attack under certain circumstances.

But some places striking the pimp first, would get the karate guy arrested.

 

[JR 137]

But not every jurisdiction treats swinging first as a valid defense claim.

I agree with you, and in his writing G.F. has advocated for preemptive attack under certain circumstances.

But some places striking the pimp first, would get the karate guy arrested.

I haven’t read every state’s SD laws. Not even close. But of the several I’ve read, not once have I seen anything resembling who struck first. It’s a decent rule of thumb at best, especially with kids, but not much more than that. I’d be shocked to see someone get convicted of assault solely because they threw the first punch.

I can see it now...
“But your honor, he was running straight at me with a knife”

“But did you throw the first punch?”

“Well, yeah. I wasn’t going to let him stab me first.”

“Guilty!”